[NA] buying land

[ArrowFlyer86]

I've had an idea forming for a while to buy a bit of land out west and develop it over the years so that down the road it could be a sort of peaceful, secluded vacation spot (and pick a spot where there's an airfield nearby of course!).
The prices on some of the land is incredibly cheap on a per-acre basis because it's (thankfully) far from civilization and has virtually no amenities, save some road access.

The thing is, while it's nice to look at pictures of various parcels, I have no practical experience owning or developing land. Much less land that's in the middle of nowhere, ~1000 miles from my primary residence. When I day-dream about doing this all I can see are the asking prices for the properties and none of the downstream costs/logistics for making it habitable/accessible.

I wouldn't be buying it as a financial investment. I'd fully expect I'll never see the money again. So liquidity or being able to sell isn't a concern.
But it's the kind of thing where if I did it I'd want to buy it and not have to give a second thought for (maybe) years at a time until I was ready to start building on it and maintaining a very modest vacation cabin there.

What are some of the considerations of pursuing this idea? Are there cases where buying land actually turns into a liability/headache even if you leave it undeveloped and don't touch it?
Any recommendations on things to consider / potential pitfalls? Trying to get an idea if this is a total pipe dream or reasonable. Any thoughts on the matter are appreciated.

 

[sourdough44]

I promise to not move in on your idea, may I as what State? Or is it one of several?


20 acres of sagebrush would be cheap. The further away you look to buy, the less time you will likely visit. If you put much of any property/structures on the land, taxes and the worry of theft ramps up.

For comparison, I have a place I’ve enjoyed visiting in Western SD, don’t own anything there. I get a rental cabin, $50 a night, modern facilities right across the lawn. For me it’s a lot easier with zero strings than owning. Not as sexy as ownership, understand.


I’m in a family ‘partnership’ of sorts with camp property 6 hour drive North. It sorta was happenstance, the development. It’s a drive, make it there every 3-6 months on average.
Out West I’d prefer to be near public access type land. The On-X Hunt app really opens up & shows what land is available for recreation, any State. With any land purchase I’d think you’d want a title co & closing representation for details, especially an unfamiliar location.

 

[Racerx]

One of the landowners I get elk tags from has a property for sale that used to have a grass strip. They currently graze cattle on it and get 3 elk landowner authorizations from the state that they sell at whatever the market price is. Now if I bought it and put a cabin there, I'd be really worried what happens when youre not there. Every trip youd have to stock up on groceries and hope someone didnt move in while you were gone. People Suck

If I ever win the lottery there was a ranch for sale with 15,000 acres, a lodge, and its own saloon.

 

[judypilot]

The Number 1 concern if you are planning to buy land out West (where I've lived 93% of my long life) is, does the land have water? There is a reason so much of the West is unoccupied. I personally would never buy land here that doesn't already have proven water. If I were really into spending money, I'd have a well drilled before closing the sale (sort of like paying for an annual on a prospective airplane before buying it).

 

[ArrowFlyer86]

The Number 1 concern if you are planning to buy land out West (where I've lived 93% of my long life) is, does the land have water? There is a reason so much of the West is unoccupied. I personally would never buy land here that doesn't already have proven water. If I were really into spending money, I'd have a well drilled before closing the sale (sort of like paying for an annual on a prospective airplane before buying it).

Thanks! This is something I hadn't considered. I thought water would only be a concern if you found yourself in the desert regions of AZ/NM/NV-ish.
Is that a common contingency people put in a contract out there? Like "must be able to drill a successful well at buyers expense prior to closing"?

I promise to not move in on your idea, may I as what State? Or is it one of several?


20 acres of sagebrush would be cheap. The further away you look to buy, the less time you will likely visit. If you put much of any property/structures on the land, taxes and the worry of theft ramps up.

For comparison, I have a place I’ve enjoyed visiting in Western SD, don’t own anything there. I get a rental cabin, $50 a night, modern facilities right across the lawn. For me it’s a lot easier with zero strings than owning. Not as sexy as ownership, understand.


I’m in a family ‘partnership’ of sorts with camp property 6 hour drive North. It sorta was happenstance, the development. It’s a drive, make it there every 3-6 months on average.
Out West I’d prefer to be near public access type land. The On-X Hunt app really opens up & shows what land is available for recreation, any State. With any land purchase I’d think you’d want a title co & closing representation for details, especially an unfamiliar location.

Oh I'm not worried about someone moving in on my idea! I'm looking at a mix of states and trying to find the most irresistible one. They are Montana, Idaho and Wyoming for the most part. I want some place that has mountains, 4 seasons, has a cold winter and gets snow, and is in an unpopulated area. Preferably as many overcast days as possible. That's really my criteria.

Renting could be interesting at first. That could be a nice start to dip my toes in it and make sure I enjoy that lifestyle, but I think for my particular use-case I'd get a lot of enjoyment knowing no one can change it/ruin it/etc.

One of the landowners I get elk tags from has a property for sale that used to have a grass strip. They currently graze cattle on it and get 3 elk landowner authorizations from the state that they sell at whatever the market price is. Now if I bought it and put a cabin there, I'd be really worried what happens when youre not there. Every trip youd have to stock up on groceries and hope someone didnt move in while you were gone. People Suck

If I ever win the lottery there was a ranch for sale with 15,000 acres, a lodge, and its own saloon.

The plots I was looking at vary in size but none of them are even 1% of your lottery-sized ranch . Most are in the 40 - 80 acre size with a few options on either size of that range.
I was kinda hoping that if you built something out in the middle of nowhere you wouldn't have to worry about travelers/hikers screwing things up for you... Great to know humanity is obnoxious even in the wilderness!

 

[Racerx]

Thanks! This is something I hadn't considered. I thought water would only be a concern if you found yourself in the desert regions of AZ/NM/NV-ish.
Is that a common contingency people put in a contract out there? Like "must be able to drill a successful well at buyers expense prior to closing"?



Oh I'm not worried about someone moving in on my idea! I'm looking at a mix of states and trying to find the most irresistible one. They are Montana, Idaho and Wyoming for the most part. I want some place that has mountains, 4 seasons, has a cold winter and gets snow, and is in an unpopulated area. Preferably as many overcast days as possible. That's really my criteria.

Renting could be interesting at first. That could be a nice start to dip my toes in it and make sure I enjoy that lifestyle, but I think for my particular use-case I'd get a lot of enjoyment knowing no one can change it/ruin it/etc.



The plots I was looking at vary in size but none of them are even 1% of your lottery-sized ranch . Most are in the 40 - 80 acre size with a few options on either size of that range.
I was kinda hoping that if you built something out in the middle of nowhere you wouldn't have to worry about travelers/hikers screwing things up for you... Great to know humanity is obnoxious even in the wilderness!

If you build it. They will come

 

[Plano Pilot]

I worked for a rancher that had over 100,000 acres of land in NM. Water was a big deal but so was access to electricity. One of the ranches, over 50,000 acres, he owned out there had no access to electricity. The workers homes all ran off generators.

 

[Let'sgoflying!]

There are so many issues that can sour a plan like this; kudos for asking beforehand.

Title/survey defects, we have several places here that built atop the property line.
Proper access to the land; we have a local lawsuit where ppl bought property just before it became land-locked.
Access to potable water/electricity, is water 700’ down and then only 2gpm? sulfurous?
Costs to get such access
Local laws & permits & fees regarding what you can do on the land (drilling/building/fencing)
A-hole neighbors you won’t know about till you buy (“didn’t realize its an all-Saturday gun range next door”) - and worse.

 

[TCABM]

Thanks! This is something I hadn't considered. I thought water would only be a concern if you found yourself in the desert regions of AZ/NM/NV-ish…

Nope. If you want to put anything inhabitable on raw land the question to answer is water access and rights, the second is electric because you’re likely not going to get the water without an electric pump.

Just because there’s an aquifer under your plot doesn’t mean you can just drill a well, either. Then, some states claim all groundwater (to include rain runoff) belongs to the state. Catchment systems can be as simple as a permit or entirely verboten.

Raw land takes boatloads of money to develop. Neighbors had to drill down 880’ on a new well this summer because their 575’ well went dry. They were buying bull potable at $475/2000 gallons for about six weeks waiting for a spot on the drillers schedule. They’re all in at about $40k on the new well.

 

[ArrowFlyer86]

There are so many issues that can sour a plan like this; kudos for asking beforehand.

Title/survey defects, we have several places here that built atop the property line.
Proper access to the land; we have a local lawsuit where ppl bought property just before it became land-locked.
Access to potable water/electricity, is water 700’ down and then only 2gpm? sulfurous?
Costs to get such access
Local laws & permits & fees regarding what you can do on the land (drilling/building/fencing)
A-hole neighbors you won’t know about till you buy (“didn’t realize its an all-Saturday gun range next door”) - and worse.

I didn't think a county could do something like that, sell you property and then make it inaccessible or requiring you to cross someone's property to get there. I assume that's what you mean by landlocked? I guess that would really make an airstrip on the lot necessary!

And that makes sense about the well. I was seeing some listings saying a well was dug and quoted 10-12gpm as a selling point.

The neighbors are perhaps my worst fear. People can use their property for whatever they wish, but it would suck to be next door to a gun range!

 

[mandm]

Similar thoughts here.

A lot of times there’s a crap ton of land in one family and they split it into 40/50acre plots and the right of way is by handshake, but when uncle wants to cash out who knows how those relationships are. You’ll want to make sure you have recorded easements, fresh surveys that are staked and a road access at minimum. You don’t save that much money by getting something that is not accessible anyway. On a side note I’ve seen roads named after each of the family members.

So back to some of your questions. You’ll want land with no restrictions or CCR’s or whatever they call them. Basically the city will have no jurisdiction over your land, and your neighbors, etc. Taxes are typically low and very little liability. Perhaps post a no trespassing sign and put it in a LLC so people are stalking you for whatever reason. No CCRs mean you and your neighbors can do whatever they want on their land, old beat up trailers and cars, gun ranges etc. You can try to buy enough land hopefully with enough separation from the trash, some privacy from the road and then arrange it based upon what you know after you’ve owned it for awhile. Personally I think a minimum of 50acres with preferably 100-200 acres would be ideal.

Now what’s important is water access, you’ll want something with working water already, whether it’s city or a well. Then consider septic or city sewer. Usually you’re going to have a well and septic. Electricity is the next, you can always do solar, which is probably cheaper than running new lines. They might have electric or the neighbors might. But I’ve seen plots with water and electric already.

Then consider the terrain, is there a paved road or a dirt road, who maintains it, year round access? Can you fit an RV or must have a 4x4. A lot of those remote plots have no access in the winter, something to keep in mind.

When you buy land, understand if you are getting the mineral rights and timber rights and for some reason I think I’m missing a third item. Last thing you want is someone clearing all of your trees later on or drilling for oil.

Consider the trees, water, rivers, lakes (and the yearly levels), etc. Might be better if your land borders government land or public waterways.

 

[Albany Tom]

So I'm going to pop in on the other side of water. I don't know if it applies to anywhere out west, but it does here. The only thing worse than no water is sometimes too much water. But that, I mean check the 100 yr flood maps to see if you're in an area that might be flooded or actually be washed away. In some places that can happen. Similarly, it's possible for the water table to be so high that you can't put in a normal septic system.

 

[Bob Noel]

The neighbors are perhaps my worst fear. People can use their property for whatever they wish, but it would suck to be next door to a gun range!

a gun range next door can be useful... for example, if you want to get in some practice. But I suppose it depends on how close it is and how careful the neighbors are.

I must resist taking a shot (get it? "shot") at someone near Chicago... um....

 

[ArrowFlyer86]

a gun range next door can be useful... for example, if you want to get in some practice. But I suppose it depends on how close it is and how careful the neighbors are.

I must resist taking a shot (get it? "shot") at someone near Chicago... um....

I hear ya. I suppose it depends on what you want to get out of your property. If you're aiming to have seclusion and at least the illusion of being far from civilization then hearing a frequent POP POP from the range next door would get exhausting.

Besides, I get enough of that in Chicago like you suggested

 

[N444MD]

I didn't think a county could do something like that, sell you property and then make it inaccessible or requiring you to cross someone's property to get there. I assume that's what you mean by landlocked? I guess that would really make an airstrip on the lot necessary!

We elected to fence a property we own in Nashville to protect our dogs. It's a nice fence. A wacko adjacent property owner decided he didn't like our fence and brought a lawsuit stating the fence was illegal because 1) it crossed an ancient easement to a water tower that no longer existed and 2) it also crossed a trail that could not legally be blocked b/c it had been used by native Americans in prior centuries. After doing all the leg work ourselves, 3 years and 30K in legal fees later we won a motion to dismiss. The neighbor sold his property and literally moved out in the direction you're contemplating for your ranch lol.

And that makes sense about the well. I was seeing some listings saying a well was dug and quoted 10-12gpm as a selling point.

The neighbors are perhaps my worst fear. People can use their property for whatever they wish, but it would suck to be next door to a gun range!

I have a 'gun range' on my home property. We are in an exclusive area of very nice houses with about 2 acres. Not one of my neighbors is aware of the range, our gun ownership nor our monthly practice drills. Let that sink in.

All this said to say property ownership anywhere will bring a plethora of bizarre events no-one could predict. But, I nonetheless highly recommend you go forward with your project. Life is short.

 

[ArrowFlyer86]

We elected to fence a property we own in Nashville to protect our dogs. It's a nice fence. A wacko adjacent property owner decided he didn't like our fence and brought a lawsuit stating the fence was illegal because 1) it crossed an ancient easement to a water tower that no longer existed and 2) it also crossed a trail that could not legally be blocked b/c it had been used by native Americans in prior centuries. After doing all the leg work ourselves, 3 years and 30K in legal fees later we won a motion to dismiss. The neighbor sold his property and literally moved out in the direction you're contemplating for your ranch lol.

I have a 'gun range' on my home property. We are in an exclusive area of very nice houses with about 2 acres. Not one of my neighbors is aware of the range, our gun ownership nor our monthly practice drills. Let that sink in.

All this said to say property ownership anywhere will bring a plethora of bizarre events no-one could predict. But, I nonetheless highly recommend you go forward with your project. Life is short.

Good God. 30k in legal fees over a fence?
Safe to say I would like to avoid such neighbors... Do you just kinda have to roll the dice and find out about your neighbors temperament after the fact or is there a better way to discover that?

I guess I could look up lawsuits in that area and see if there's any particularly disgruntled neighbors who like to cause a legal fuss?

Re your range... I currently have 1.5 acres in a wooded lot on the edge of suburbia. I'm pretty sure I wouldn't be able to build a range and keep it from my neighbors unless I had suppressors! Impressive that you've managed to.

 

[N444MD]

Good God. 30k in legal fees over a fence?
Safe to say I would like to avoid such neighbors... Do you just kinda have to roll the dice and find out about your neighbors temperament after the fact or is there a better way to discover that?

The fence cost 50K to install, so 30K in legal fees was absolutely abominable. I learned from that case that if served with a complaint, just call the plaintiff and settle it. Leave his lawyer out the conversation and sure as he-ll don't hire one of your own. Readers here will look at my 'nym and say "stupid doctors". For the record, I wasn't a doctor then. I had naive reasons to be stupid.

I guess I could look up lawsuits in that area and see if there's any particularly disgruntled neighbors who like to cause a legal fuss?

Re your range... I currently have 1.5 acres in a wooded lot on the edge of suburbia. I'm pretty sure I wouldn't be able to build a range and keep it from my neighbors unless I had suppressors! Impressive that you've managed to.

Definite check for litigation histories in local courts. Be aware that if both parties agree, a significant case could have been forever sealed to public review. Check the county felony database and the predator database to be sure who's not around. The last esp if you have kiddos. Supp-ressors r essential, especially if forced to fight out of small spaces or concrete rooms.

 

[judypilot]

Thanks! This is something I hadn't considered. I thought water would only be a concern if you found yourself in the desert regions of AZ/NM/NV-ish.
Is that a common contingency people put in a contract out there? Like "must be able to drill a successful well at buyers expense prior to closing"?

I've never heard of such a contingency, but I suppose someone has probably done it. Anywhere that the land seems to be reasonably priced, I doubt the owners would agree to such a contingency, since digging a well can cost upward of $20K and if they had a proven well, they could jack up the price substantially. Another consideration, as someone else mentioned, is the water rights, not to mention the quality of the water. Water rights have been and are even more now a huge issue (there were already water wars in southern California in the 1930s). It's actually too late for some areas. Having grown up in California and lived in Colorado and Arizona, all states with water challenges, I was surprised to learn that Idaho was actually the first state to try to compile all the information on water rights statewide in order to monitor water use, but I'm sure other states are starting to get with the program. (I was also shocked to learn that we have the rights to about 15 times the amount of water that we actually use because our house is so old, by Idaho standards--1975.) I'm not sure what it all means in a practical sense for individual landowners. I'm pretty concerned about some down-aquifer development on our road, but I'm not sure if I actually have the right to challenge it; for one thing, the development started before Idaho finalized the process. But in any case, this is just going to be a bigger and bigger issue. By the way, I live in northern Idaho, which isn't usually thought of as dry, but depending on where you live in northern Idaho, water is an issue even here.

 

[ArrowFlyer86]

I've never heard of such a contingency, but I suppose someone has probably done it. Anywhere that the land seems to be reasonably priced, I doubt the owners would agree to such a contingency, since digging a well can cost upward of $20K and if they had a proven well, they could jack up the price substantially. Another consideration, as someone else mentioned, is the water rights, not to mention the quality of the water. Water rights have been and are even more now a huge issue (there were already water wars in southern California in the 1930s). It's actually too late for some areas. Having grown up in California and lived in Colorado and Arizona, all states with water challenges, I was surprised to learn that Idaho was actually the first state to try to compile all the information on water rights statewide in order to monitor water use, but I'm sure other states are starting to get with the program. (I was also shocked to learn that we have the rights to about 15 times the amount of water that we actually use because our house is so old, by Idaho standards--1975.) I'm not sure what it all means in a practical sense for individual landowners. I'm pretty concerned about some down-aquifer development on our road, but I'm not sure if I actually have the right to challenge it; for one thing, the development started before Idaho finalized the process. But in any case, this is just going to be a bigger and bigger issue. By the way, I live in northern Idaho, which isn't usually thought of as dry, but depending on where you live in northern Idaho, water is an issue even here.

That's really interesting - thanks for the background.
I guess in the Midwest I've been spoiled into thinking water availability is just a given. I would not have expected that a proven water supply would have a material effect on land pricing.

And hearing that it impacts Idaho? That's surprising, too.

I'll have to make sure I do my homework on that so I'm not trucking in water (assuming my property would even be accessible by car, which also seems to be something I have to research!).

 

[judypilot]

That's really interesting - thanks for the background.
I guess in the Midwest I've been spoiled into thinking water availability is just a given. I would not have expected that a proven water supply would have a material effect on land pricing.

And hearing that it impacts Idaho? That's surprising, too.

I'll have to make sure I do my homework on that so I'm not trucking in water (assuming my property would even be accessible by car, which also seems to be something I have to research!).

Definitely keep this in mind when you start looking for property. And if there is a well, see if you can get the owners to get it tested for flow rate and quality (this IS a pretty common contingency). It wouldn't hurt to do some snooping to see how the wells in the surrounding properties are doing. You might be able to get this information from the county, or the real estate agent might know (ours did when we bought this place). Don't necessarily be put off by a slow flow rate, but be prepared to install a storage tank so you don't run out if you're doing a lot of watering. We learned that the previous owners ran their well dry (temporarily--they drew on it faster than the flow rate) doing a lot of laundry one day, so we installed a tank. I don't remember what it cost (probably a lot less than it would cost now, as it was about 19 years ago), but I don't recall it was too bad.

 

[rwellner98]

I would love to have a low flow well at our place in Mexico. We had to build a cistern and capture rain water from the house. That generally lasts us until about January, then we have water trucked in. You can get storage tanks big enough for household needs for a small number of AMUs. If you build a house, put one or two on the roof and you're golden. But if they have to be at ground level, having a pressure system won't be a big deal either.

 

[Oldmanb777]

Many parcels are acquired by tax liens. The owners loose interest in their dreams. Especially when they realize how difficult to impossible their dreams are to fulfill. Then they loose interest in paying the taxes and it goes up for auction in tax lien sales. Acquired by people in the tax lien business and then sold to the next dreamer.

 

[Let'sgoflying!]

Many parcels are acquired by tax liens. The owners loose interest in their dreams. Especially when they realize how difficult to impossible their dreams are to fulfill. Then they loose interest in paying the taxes and it goes up for auction in tax lien sales. Acquired by people in the tax lien business and then sold to the next dreamer.

Years ago there was a guy here selling 12"x12" (one square foot) plots of "Texas ranch land".
There was huge interest!
People from LA and NYC and Germany etc were agog with the idea of telling their friends they owned a Texas ranch!
An enormous effort by the county clerk to keep track of all these sales. None were surveyed.
Then when people lost interest and the county tried to sell off the land, it was impossible.
A patchwork quilt of various properties, each with its own deed and description and tax history.
I did not hear of it but thought there should be some minimum parcel of land that could be bought and sold.

 

[SoonerAviator]

Well, they aren't making any more of it so buying land is generally a safe bet. It's no different than buying a house, intrinsically. You'd want to research the area and the zoning, as well as any local/state laws regarding what you can do on the land. Water rights, right of access, easements, etc. are all part of the due diligence. I probably wouldn't worry a ton about liability on the property if it's just left natural as long as there isn't any law that says you have to be maintaining it, especially if there are no structures on raw unimproved land. An insurance policy could be had for cheap to cover you for most any liability claim. As others mentioned, reasonable access to utilities like electricity and rural water are paramount unless you want that eventual cabin to be off-grid.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Paging @TangoWhiskey...

 

[ArrowFlyer86]

Thanks for all the answers folks - this gives me a good starting point for due diligence.

 

[Huckster79]

Watching for good input.

My wife and I are considering doing similiar but in the Upper Peninsula of Michigan or maybe one of our islands. We recently bought 4 acres in Northern Lower peninsula but now want a big chunk somewhere- our 4 acres is going to get a nice cabin- big dirt would likely be just a basic rustic cabin.

I’m finding similiar things to worry about- primarily access. I could deal w no electric, but I’m not spending a dime on a property I’m not guaranteed access to- and there is plenty of those available in our UP. Dirt cheap price but no legal access- someone else can buy that unless I found one that was long enough for a strip but that likely would be a feat in the UP clearing enough land for a runway, so we’re looking for spots close to the airports there and get a beater jeep or something.

Great idea btw! Hope to join ya but just in a different location

 

[DJTorrente]

I did not hear of it but thought there should be some minimum parcel of land that could be bought and sold.

I'm aware of people using such a scheme (I'll refrain from calling it a 'scam') to try gaming school district boundaries. In Long Island's Nassau County, NY, (likewise among other suburbs) the value of a piece of land varies greatly according to which school district its owner/resident is entitled to send their children. If the boundary crosses a property, the owner/resident has the right to choose between the districts.

There was a case where an owner on the border of a highly ranked district sold one square foot of land to their neighbor on the opposite side of the border for an exorbitant sum. The 'buyer's' property now had the boundary crossing it, and could be considered within the more desirable district.

As I recall, it was resolved against the 'buyer' because the court declared that the subdivision of land by the 'seller' was not permissible and didn't have to be recognized by the town or its schools.