FBO Self Serve not being checked for a month.

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Biller2334

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Biller2334
I just want to say this is not something that I did myself but I discovered and want opinions on it.

I work at an FBO and noticed that our senior and most veteran employee was not marking off that he was sumping/checking our fuel farm for the entire month of July. I thought maybe he was doing the required dailies but just not filling out the paperwork. We have a self serve 100LL tank, and two Jet A tanks. I had finally confronted him about this via electronic message. He admitted to me that he was not doing the daily sumps unless he received a fuel load in. This was shocking for me to hear when there could be a potential breach in one of our tanks at anytime and could be filled with contaminates. I worried mostly with the 100LL self serve tanks more than anything because there is a lot of daily single piston action at our airport. I've been doing my checks when I work, but that's sometimes 2 or 3 days apart. This is has been reported to management, with little action. Thoughts and opinions please... Thank you!
 
So there’s only one person at your facility that does the daily fuel checks?
 
Biller2334 said:
I work at an FBO and noticed that our senior and most veteran employee was not marking off that he was sumping/checking our fuel farm for the entire month of July. I thought maybe he was doing the required dailies but just not filling out the paperwork. We have a self serve 100LL tank, and two Jet A tanks. I had finally confronted him about this via electronic message. He admitted to me that he was not doing the daily sumps unless he received a fuel load in. This was shocking for me to hear when there could be a potential breach in one of our tanks at anytime and could be filled with contaminates. I worried mostly with the 100LL self serve tanks more than anything because there is a lot of daily single piston action at our airport. I've been doing my checks when I work, but that's sometimes 2 or 3 days apart. This is has been reported to management, with little action. Thoughts and opinions please... Thank you!
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Do them yourself. Record it...be the solution.
 
Gary Ward said:
It looks like you joined this site to stir the pot?
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Another warm welcome to PoA. Dude thinks he might have a safety issue and he's called a pot stirrer... SMH

@Biller2334 sumping is something that actually should be done, I agree. Getting it only at load time could easily not detect contaminants due to agitation from receiving the load. And I would like to hope that receiving new inventory is the least likely way to get contamination because I would like to believe that the upstream providers are doing volume and have risk exposure that makes them more careful than your typical sleepy field operator, but I could be wrong about that.

I would suggest finding a way to ask questions, rather than make accusations. Ask the manager about getting trained to do it and how to log it. Heck, just ask them how to check the logs to assure it's been done on the right schedule. Ask them questions about the fuel farm and how contamination typical enters the system. Ask them how long it takes for contaminants to settle. Maybe you'll learn that there isn't actually an issue at your airport. Maybe you'll learn how to solve the problem. But you'll definitely learn *something*.
 
I'm confused. Is he checking it every 2-3 days, or has it not been checked for a month as the thread title says?

Every 2-3 days seems adequate to me.
 
Salty said:
I'm confused. Is he checking it every 2-3 days, or has it not been checked for a month as the thread title says?

Every 2-3 days seems adequate to me.
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He says that other guy has not done his job for a month, but he checks it himself when on shift. I was confused also and some of my response above reflects that. I thought the reg was "daily", but I agree with you that if it's being done every 2-3 days then that's a whole different risk profile than "hasn't been done in a month".
 
1) when you fill out the paperwork make sure your name/initials/date are on your entries. this covers your arse.
2) make some sort of sign on the pumps where it says something like "last sumped on XX date". something as simple as a clipboard hung from where people pump or pay. this:
shows your initiative​
allows people getting fuel to make their own decision​
puts the responsibility of any issues on mgmt of the operation​

or do none of those, I dunno.
 
Salty said:
I'm confused. Is he checking it every 2-3 days, or has it not been checked for a month as the thread title says?

Every 2-3 days seems adequate to me.
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My interpretation was:

- The guy who's supposed to check it didn't do it for the entire month of July
- The OP noticed this, and started checking when he was there, but that doesn't guarantee it gets done daily. My interpretation was that OP didn't know this was a problem so wasn't checking it until he realized nobody else was.
- It's not OP's job so the fact that he's doing the checking is a bandaid and not a robust process fix
- FBO mgmt does not seem to have any interest in the situation

I agree there is ambiguity so I'm not sure that's the correct interpretation, but that's how it sounded to me.
 
Jim_R said:
My interpretation was:

- The guy who's supposed to check it didn't do it for the entire month of July
- The OP noticed this, and started checking when he was there, but that doesn't guarantee it gets done daily. My interpretation was that OP didn't know this was a problem so wasn't checking it until he realized nobody else was.
- It's not OP's job so the fact that he's doing the checking is a bandaid and not a robust process fix
- FBO mgmt does not seem to have any interest in the situation

i agree there is ambiguity so I'm not sure that's the correct interpretation, but that's how it sounded to me.
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That makes sense to me.
 
Jim_R said:
My interpretation was:

- The guy who's supposed to check it didn't do it for the entire month of July
- The OP noticed this, and started checking when he was there, but that doesn't guarantee it gets done daily. My interpretation was that OP didn't know this was a problem so wasn't checking it until he realized nobody else was.
- It's not OP's job so the fact that he's doing the checking is a bandaid and not a robust process fix
- FBO mgmt does not seem to have any interest in the situation

i agree there is ambiguity so I'm not sure that's the correct interpretation, but that's how it sounded to me.
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Yep. And the title of the thread is a WAY bigger statement than the explanation. Maybe they will come back and comment.
 
172andyou said:
Yep. And the title of the thread is a WAY bigger statement than the explanation. Maybe they will come back and comment.
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I think @Jim_R 's explanation was a sound one. It is as bad a problem as the title makes it sound. With Jim's explanation, the fact that the OP is going out of his way to make it less of a problem for others, isn't a proper resolution to the problem.
 
Sorry for the confusing title, I was referring to the other team member not doing his sumps on his days. We have a 2-2-3 rotation. So every 2 to 3 days the fuel is being checked. I just wanted to know how pilots felt about that, and if I should escalate this concern above the management here at the FBO.
 
Salty said:
I'm confused. Is he checking it every 2-3 days, or has it not been checked for a month as the thread title says?

Every 2-3 days seems adequate to me.
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Biller2334 said:
I just want to say this is not something that I did myself but I discovered and want opinions on it.

I work at an FBO and noticed that our senior and most veteran employee was not marking off that he was sumping/checking our fuel farm for the entire month of July. I thought maybe he was doing the required dailies but just not filling out the paperwork. We have a self serve 100LL tank, and two Jet A tanks. I had finally confronted him about this via electronic message. He admitted to me that he was not doing the daily sumps unless he received a fuel load in. This was shocking for me to hear when there could be a potential breach in one of our tanks at anytime and could be filled with contaminates. I worried mostly with the 100LL self serve tanks more than anything because there is a lot of daily single piston action at our airport. I've been doing my checks when I work, but that's sometimes 2 or 3 days apart. This is has been reported to management, with little action. Thoughts and opinions please... Thank you!
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Your FBO should a written fuel safety policy. This policy would include employee training, emergency procedures, environmental protection, quality control, ect.

Sounds like management does really care.
 
Biller2334 said:
Sorry for the confusing title, I was referring to the other team member not doing his sumps on his days. We have a 2-2-3 rotation. So every 2 to 3 days the fuel is being checked. I just wanted to know how pilots felt about that, and if I should escalate this concern above the management here at the FBO.
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Simple answer is yes. Also if nothing further is done after that, the local FSDO would be interested to hear about it. It can be really hard when your employer is not following safety rules, but the only right thing to do is to keep pressing until it is fixed.
 
Biller2334 said:
Sorry for the confusing title, I was referring to the other team member not doing his sumps on his days. We have a 2-2-3 rotation. So every 2 to 3 days the fuel is being checked. I just wanted to know how pilots felt about that, and if I should escalate this concern above the management here at the FBO.
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While I appreciate the concern, what’s the FBO’s policy in fuel checks?

If the policy isn’t being followed and management isn’t addressing the issue once it was brought to their attention, then I’d start wondering if I really wanted to work for that company.
 
I wonder if @RyanB knows if there’s a regulatory requirement on sumping. I don’t think it’s daily. I’d be real surprised if it was. There are airports that sell gas that are not manned and don’t see a human for weeks.
 
Salty said:
I wonder if @RyanB knows if there’s a regulatory requirement on sumping. I don’t think it’s daily. I’d be real surprised if it was. There are airports that sell gas that are not manned and don’t see a human for weeks.
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It is supposed to be done daily. The fuel supplier audits our records annually to ensure we’re following procedure.

The reality is, sumping every other day is unlikely to result in contamination to the outflow of the product. The filter vessels and floating suction make it pretty difficult for the customer to get contaminated fuel. When we sump, we do it from two places on the tank. One from a spout on the back of the tank at the bottom that is unfiltered, and a second at the front which passes through the filters. I’m not sure I’ve ever seen contaminants when testing through the filtered side.
 
RyanB said:
It is supposed to be done daily. The fuel supplier audits our records annually to ensure we’re following procedure.

The reality is, sumping every other day is unlikely to result in contamination to the outflow of the product. The filter vessels and floating suction make it pretty difficult for the customer to get contaminated fuel. When we sump, we do it from two places on the tank. One from a spout on the back of the tank at the bottom that is unfiltered, and a second at the front which passes through the filters. I’m not sure I’ve ever seen contaminants when testing through the filtered side.
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I thought I had heard daily also. But couldn't google up a reg suggesting that.

As @Salty pointed out, I'm sure there are lots of places that don't get visited daily, so it makes one wonder.

Also makes me wonder about that ancient looking fuel system at Gaston's. I'm gonna bet it either hasn't been done in years, or they are absolutely religious about sending someone out there every morning.
 
RyanB said:
It is supposed to be done daily. The fuel supplier audits our records annually to ensure we’re following procedure.

The reality is, sumping every other day is unlikely to result in contamination to the outflow of the product. The filter vessels and floating suction make it pretty difficult for the customer to get contaminated fuel. When we sump, we do it from two places on the tank. One from a spout on the back of the tank at the bottom that is unfiltered, and a second at the front which passes through the filters. I’m not sure I’ve ever seen contaminants when testing through the filtered side.
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Ever hear of independent fuel suppliers?
 
Biller2334 said:
Thoughts and opinions please...
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Is this a private or public airport?
Do any scheduled Part 121 airlines service this airport? If so, does this FBO supply fuel regardless of type to that airline(s)?
 
Clip4 said:
Ever hear of independent fuel suppliers?
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I’m not aware of any. At a public use airport, you cannot just get your fuel from anyone you want and there are only a few suppliers available.
 
RyanB said:
It is supposed to be done daily. The fuel supplier audits our records annually to ensure we’re following procedure.

The reality is, sumping every other day is unlikely to result in contamination to the outflow of the product. The filter vessels and floating suction make it pretty difficult for the customer to get contaminated fuel. When we sump, we do it from two places on the tank. One from a spout on the back of the tank at the bottom that is unfiltered, and a second at the front which passes through the filters. I’m not sure I’ve ever seen contaminants when testing through the filtered side.
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How often are filters supposed to be changed? From 2007 to 2022 I occasionally flew into a remote Texas airport that has Self serve fuel. It has both Jet and 100ll, last filter change 1999! I took this picture in 02/2020.

In all the times I was there I never ran into an employee. Only a very few other pilots and one guy that was catching snakes for fun. I also never saw anyone buying fuel and do not remember any NOTAMS about fuel.


20200209_085702.jpg
 
RyanB said:
Annually. We usually do ours in the Spring. Amazing how these places can continue to get and sell fuel.
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Well, you'd think a fuel delivery person would notice at least once in 20+ years and say something, so maybe the fuel is also 1999 vintage. (Was that a good year for 100LL?)
 
Half Fast said:
Well, you'd think a fuel delivery person would notice at least once in 20+ years and say something, so maybe the fuel is also 1999 vintage. (Was that a good year for 100LL?)
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They contract deliveries out to third party trucking companies. The drivers don’t check anything, except for the fuel they’re about to offload. Test the gravity, sign the release forms and away they go.
 
RyanB said:
I’m not aware of any. At a public use airport, you cannot just get your fuel from anyone you want and there are only a few suppliers available.
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Really? I see fuel listed as independent listed at public airports quite often. That includes a lot of public airports with Signature as the FBO. You will find independent fuel in Huntsville Alabama area and Jackson Mississippi.
 
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RyanB said:
They contract deliveries out to third party trucking companies. The drivers don’t check anything, except for the fuel they’re about to offload. Test the gravity, sign the release forms and away they go.
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You will find previous comments from several posters who claim their 100LL delivery drivers don’t test for specific gravity. The drivers are supposed to check the load before it leaves the terminal and before it is delivered to the storage tanks.
 
Clip4 said:
Really? I see fuel listed as independent listed at public airports quite often. That includes a lot of public airports with Signature as the FBO. You will find independent fuel in Huntsville Alabama area and Jackson Mississippi.
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Show me an example, I’m not seeing what you’re seeing.
Clip4 said:
You will find previous comments from several posters who claim their 100LL delivery drivers don’t test for specific gravity. The drivers are supposed to check the load before it leaves the terminal and before it is delivered to the storage tanks.
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Wouldn’t be surprised if some don’t, but it’s supposed to be physically verified by the receiver. Not just take the driver’s word for it.
 
Biller2334 said:
I just want to say this is not something that I did myself but I discovered and want opinions on it.

I work at an FBO and noticed that our senior and most veteran employee was not marking off that he was sumping/checking our fuel farm for the entire month of July. I thought maybe he was doing the required dailies but just not filling out the paperwork. We have a self serve 100LL tank, and two Jet A tanks. I had finally confronted him about this via electronic message. He admitted to me that he was not doing the daily sumps unless he received a fuel load in. This was shocking for me to hear when there could be a potential breach in one of our tanks at anytime and could be filled with contaminates. I worried mostly with the 100LL self serve tanks more than anything because there is a lot of daily single piston action at our airport. I've been doing my checks when I work, but that's sometimes 2 or 3 days apart. This is has been reported to management, with little action. Thoughts and opinions please... Thank you!
Click to expand...
Seems to me that if management has been made aware then you should "stay in your lane"

OK I'll bite and ask a couple questions...

Are these above ground tanks or underground tanks?
And what do you mean by "sumping"?
Have you been trained to do it? If so tell us how you do it?
Does anyone stick tanks for water? Whether they are above or below ground.

Someone said something about the delivery driver checking for specific gravity of the fuel. Are you serious?
 
Approach it from a positive standpoint. Tell your boss that you want to learn more, and ask how the fuel operation is maintained. Ask if you can start being part of checking fuel quality, keeping it running well, and handling paperwork.
 
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