Aviators who are not pilots

geezer

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Kruse'n
The thread about the "Instructor" who had a fatal with his student and personally survived, with all his privilege's revoked brought a friend of mine to mind.

Fred Flintstone, NOT IS REAL NAME started flying just before WW 2, but was one of those people that panic on tests. He never passed the written.

Post war, he bought an airplane, and continued with flying lessons with the local airport, and was found by several instructor to be ready for the check ride. Over the next decades!!!, he failed the written at least 5 times. His instructors were frustrated, as they quizzed him thoroughly before signing him off, as failures count against their record with the FAA. Each time he went, a different instructor prepped him, and signed him off.

In the '70's, his plane was tied down near ours, and I often asked him for assistance when doing maintenances, and conversely he asked for mine. We were both accustomed to doing automotive maintenance, and he was a professional diesel mechanic for a large earthmoving contractor. My expertise was electrical, his naturally, mechanical.

One day I was explaining the serious problem we had, which had been serviced by two different A&P's, with no improvement. Fred Flintstone suggested that I call his favorite A&P for advice, but unfortunately for Fred, he had mentioned earlier that he was flying to that A&P's shop for a problem with his plane. I insisted on going with him, he strongly resisted, and I did not take NO for an answer. Cornered, he took me.

We both learned what we needed, and flew back.

One of the instructors on the field saw me climb out of Fred Flintstone's plane, and found an opportunity to talk with me in private. Fred had near a thousand hours, and no accidents. Fred was an excellent pilot, even skilled in limited aerobatics, legal in his plane. Fred had only a student pilot certificate. If the FAA found out that he had a passenger, his flying world would collapse. Four times a year, the 4 instructors on the field signed him off for solo cross countries, good for 3 months, each in turn. I respected their judgement, and do not pile on them, you are just whacking dead men, they have all flown west.

I had no idea that Fred was not a fully qualified and licensed pilot, and his two flights that day were as near perfectly done as I could have noticed. His taildragger touchdowns were as light a a feather

Fred would have been fine in the '20s, or even the '30's, but todays regulations kept him from being legal. I would guess that in the '20's, he could have been a successful instructor.

Where does a real pilot of his skills fit in 1980's, or today's flying? Drivers license for a medical would not work for him, no 3rd class plus PPL.

Remember also, this was half a century ago. :)
 
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The guy in the link below was flying a King Air, at night, in IMC, with a passenger on a lapsed (deferred due to alcohol incident) student pilot cert. The accident resulted in two fatalities. Well worth the read.

Probably the most egregious abuse of regulations I am aware of. I know of others, but none as bad as this.

From Kathryn's report:

Stinger Welding accident
 
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Remember also, this was half a century ago. :)
Were the rules for solo cross-country flights (§ 61.93) different back then? Or how did he not need a specific endorsement for each flight?

Thanks,
Martin
 
Where does a real pilot of his skills fit in 1980's, or today's flying?
Sounds like his problem was a knowledge problem, not a flying problem, and he and his instructor(s) are not able to resolve that. There’s no place he fits in to flying as a licensed pilot.
 
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I had no idea that Fred was not a fully qualified and licensed pilot, and his two flights that day were as near perfectly done as I could have noticed. His taildragger touchdowns were as light a a feather
Most instructors have experience with students that have good hand-eye coordination and pick up the basics quickly. Unfortunately, the higher-order thinking skills necessary to be a pilot cannot be developed in a short amount of time. One could be a great stick-and-rudder pilot and lack HOTS. I've had students able to solo quite quickly and then languish because they are intellectually lazy.
 
Assuming you are a licensed pilot, I fail to understand why anybody involved in or out of the plane even thought twice about the flight.
 
Three comments,

The 3 month endorsements allowed phone approval for individual flights.

Verbally, he knew all that was on the written, just froze up on the actual documents in the test center.

Legally, our flight would have been fine if he told me his status, I was qualified for his taildragger, thus could have claimed to be PIC. He knew such details as the airspeed errors when slipping, and advised what speed he was going to have while slipping to the landing at the home field. We often discussed the different techniques for cross wind landings, and which airport to go to if a runway more in line with the wind was needed. He was well versed in the flight characteristics of his plane, and mine as well.
 
Three comments,

The 3 month endorsements allowed phone approval for individual flights.

Verbally, he knew all that was on the written, just froze up on the actual documents in the test center.

Legally, our flight would have been fine if he told me his status, I was qualified for his taildragger, thus could have claimed to be PIC. He knew such details as the airspeed errors when slipping, and advised what speed he was going to have while slipping to the landing at the home field. We often discussed the different techniques for cross wind landings, and which airport to go to if a runway more in line with the wind was needed. He was well versed in the flight characteristics of his plane, and mine as well.
Apparently he was not able to translate his knowledge into the real world either, because by simply saying “I’m only a student pilot,” he would have allowed you to claim PIC status and be 100% legal. This wasn’t simply a case of test anxiety.
 
Saying that he was only a student pilot would break the secret that the instructors were keeping him in the air, and legal.

Secrets must be kept secret, or soon every one knows, then the FAA checks.

All of them are dead and gone, 10 years or more, so no longer a big deal. The instructor did suggest that if I wished to fly with him in the future, just ask if I could fly his plane, with him along.
 
Saying that he was only a student pilot would break the secret that the instructors were keeping him in the air, and legal.

Secrets must be kept secret, or soon every one knows, then the FAA checks.

All of them are dead and gone, 10 years or more, so no longer a big deal. The instructor did suggest that if I wished to fly with him in the future, just ask if I could fly his plane, with him along.
Why should it be a secret?
 
Saying that he was only a student pilot would break the secret that the instructors were keeping him in the air, and legal.

Secrets must be kept secret, or soon every one knows, then the FAA checks.

All of them are dead and gone, 10 years or more, so no longer a big deal. The instructor did suggest that if I wished to fly with him in the future, just ask if I could fly his plane, with him along.

What secret? A student pilot certificate is a valid certificate, subject to those limitations. I’m wondering if this was before the time when your student pilot certificate and medical certificate were the same piece of paper.
 
Same piece of paper.

The secret was that he was still a student plot after 40 years. Everybody on the field thought he was one of the best pilots there. Me included, even after flying with him.
 
Sounds like his problem was a knowledge problem, not a flying problem, and he and his instructor(s) are not able to resolve that. There’s no place he fits in to flying as a licensed pilot.
seems more like dyslexia or something like that.... doesn't sound like a knowledge problem to me, based on that story. I wonder if FSDO could do a special verbal "written" for someone like this....
 
seems more like dyslexia or something like that.... doesn't sound like a knowledge problem to me, based on that story. I wonder if FSDO could do a special verbal "written" for someone like this....
Dyslexia wouldn’t cause a student pilot to cave in to carrying a passenger.
 
Dyslexia wouldn’t cause a student pilot to cave in to carrying a passenger.
well, yeah...there's that
I was commenting on the inability to pass the written...not on that lapse in judgement....
 
Were the rules for solo cross-country flights (§ 61.93) different back then? Or how did he not need a specific endorsement for each flight?

Thanks,
Martin
In the 80s I just called my instructor to get clearance. Basically just a weather check before going.

Back then the concern was about getting lost (I need huge landmarks) not crosswind landings and the million other things to think about

Seems foolish now of course
 
45 years ago when I got my student pilot certificate solo flights were almost unrestricted. You could do almost anything as long as you didn’t carry passengers, with very little instructor involvement once you were signed off for solo. Yes, the rules were different and it wasn’t unusual for people to fly on student pilot certificates for a long period.
 
In the early '90's I don't recall a lot of restrictions. I don't recall the actual regs, but the solo endorsement for local "practice area" flight was good for a certain timeframe... 6 months or some such thing
here's an example of my first one
1723208137135.png
There were seperate cross county endorsements for landing at another airport...one for each airport, also good it seems for around 6 months.

Now the flight school had their own rules too...basically what I remember was that my instructor, or any instructor that worked at the school, had to be there to confirm weather, etc. I rekon that was probably more of an insurance thing for the rentals
 
The secret was that he was still a student plot after 40 years. Everybody on the field thought he was one of the best pilots there. Me included, even after flying with him.
So he was keeping the secret to stroke his ego…also not a good trait in a pilot.
 
The local vocals were trying to shut down all student flying at our airport at that time. If they found that
Fred was flying solo, unable to get a license, after so many years, they would have called the FAA to punish his friendly instructors and ground Fred.

I will repeat, he could pass the contents of the written, verbally with 4 different instructors. All 4 had flown with him, and considered his flying skills suitable for a check ride. They gave him those solo endorsements free. He only paid them for his BFR's, which at that time was a pretty thorough check ride, including stalls and optionally, spins. His plane was certified for spins, and he enjoyed doing them.
 
they would have called the FAA to punish his friendly instructors and ground Fred.
I’ve never heard of the FAA punishing instructors for ensuring that Student Pilots were properly trained and endorsed. Nor have I heard of them revoking student certificates simply because the locals don’t want Students exercising privileges at a particular airport.
 
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MauleSkinner, you live in a different world than I do.

We have many influential congress people who live within 5 miles of our airport, who think it should only be a historic marker on the nearest road.

For many years, we had serial numbers on each tree on the approach path to the runway, and we needed a court hearing to trim the tops when they reached 5 feet taller than the court approve height.

Several of those politicians were on the House budget committee, and they strike fear in any agency who ignores complaints.
 
MauleSkinner, you live in a different world than I do.

We have many influential congress people who live within 5 miles of our airport, who think it should only be a historic marker on the nearest road.

For many years, we had serial numbers on each tree on the approach path to the runway, and we needed a court hearing to trim the tops when they reached 5 feet taller than the court approve height.

Several of those politicians were on the House budget committee, and they strike fear in any agency who ignores complaints.
We’ll, then, I guess they should’ve caved and grounded him.
 
I can see the FAA investigating and then reprimanding the instructors for essentially skirting the intent of the regulations rather than any actual violations of the regs themselves. However, it certainly sounds like the guy was just fine as a pilot, but was afoul of the regulations on a technicality. Plenty of pilots up in Alaska and such that don't even bother with the CFI at all to remain in compliance, but keep on flying despite not holding a pilot's cert at all, even as a student.
 
About the original guy, some people just freeze up on written tests. Some sort of panic thing. I think it's possible to fix it by almost over-learning everything, and by taking practice electronic tests. If he can fix a diesel engine he's not a dummy, but some bit of his head has convinced him that he can't do it. I don't buy that. If he's still around, get him one of the things that let's you take the test 100 times...because the current computerized tests aren't much different than the practice tests.
 
A bit of history on the FAA written test. After a series of lawsuits, the modern stand alone individual questions became the standard. Previously, there were linked questions that if you missed the first, you could not get the next right. The wrong answers related to the incorrect first question were there, to give the feeling that the first and later questions were all correct.

An example,, Cessna 172 equivalent aircraft POH information was provided, with all navigation and weather data for the test questions. Weight of the pilot and passengers A B C are also provided.


Question 1. Fly from airport A to airport B. How many gallons of fuel were used?

The somewhat hidden kicker here is that the real question is about weather, clear of clouds rules, and minimum height over occupied buildings.

There is a ridge between the two airports, with a village in the pass

The weather teletype code shows a cloud layer, which requires an altitude below 500 feet to remain legally clear of clouds in the pass.

There is a small tower, with AGL and MSL height data, so height of the village altitude is available.

The answer for fuel burn through the pass is on the multiple answers.

The real legal route is around the end of the ridge, and that answer is there too.



Question 2. You pick up your friends, for a flight to airport C, and do a weight and balance. Weight of each friend is given, along with the pilot’s weight. How many gallons can you add to the tanks for this flight? Answered based on the long route will be right, based on the short flight will be wrong, and looking in the tanks or dipsticking is not an option.



Question 3. You now return to your home airport, A. Do you need any additional fuel to get back to base, where fuel is cheaper?

If you did the end run around the ridge the first time, and then added the correct fuel, you do not need more to get around the other end of the ridge. Now there are only 3 wrong answers that look correct if you did any of the previous wrong.



Thus, if our friend, Fred Flintstone does all his weather briefings by phone, and does not have the teletype codes memorized, he misses 3 questions, while accurately figuring weight and balance, time for the route, fuel consumption, and range.


Those were the type of questions that Fred missed, and with the chain connections, actually missing only 5 would fail you on a 50 question test. The pass fail line was at 70%, which I thought was ridiculous, until I took the test, and found how interlocked and complex the questions were. The reality was that 50 questions tested you on about 200 issues that required proper researching and calculating legal and performance issues.



Those “chain” questions were ruled invalid by Federal Courts, and finally were replaced by “stand alone” questions, where if you were wrong on one, it had no effect on others.

Fred could almost certainly pass the new version, but now is not when he lived and flew.



The example I gave above is one on the written that I took, and was worried if I had read the weather wrong, and the pass was in fact, passable, and the correct route.

My instructor gave me the then required debrief on the questions missed, and there was no trio.



Fred never flew unless the weather was clear, and only flew on overnight trips to visit a family member. The concern for the weather coming home was not there, as his wife drove with the kids, and he could leave the plane until good weather, at no cost. He was also very skilled in VFR navigation, and kept well clear of controlled airspace. He never flew at night. He was proud of his flights into nearly every airport within 50 miles, especially the small grass ones.
 
The father of a high school friend owned and flew a 310 without a license. I can't remember if he flew in IMC. This was in the mid 1970s.
 
What part of the country did he live in?
 
Today you can still own a plane, buy gas, and to flying with no license and no medical. But you can't buy insurance. Which means if something happens, you're life is essentially over. That is riskier than not having home owner's insurance.
 
Think about it, aside from a check ride, ramp check, or job interview, have you ever had someone ask to see your pilot certificate?

Same as a high school diploma or college degree.

Over the years I've known of several pilots that flew without certificate or medical, or both. Some I was definitely surprised to learn of, as I knew they were highly experienced.

Definitely not saying it's right, but it can be done if you can manage to keep out of the headlines.
 
Think about it, aside from a check ride, ramp check, or job interview, have you ever had someone ask to see your pilot certificate?
I've thought of this. I had a previous photo pilot who told everyone he was a commercial pilot. I believed him. I don't pay my photo pilots, but they are flying my plane for free, so the FAA considers the time-building as compensation. When I was notified by someone that he wasn't a commercial pilot, I stopped using him, but I never felt like it was a risk to me. He was the one violating the rules. I'm a pilot, but when I'm shooting photos, I'm just a passenger. I did wonder though, how many of us have ever been in a plane with someone, not knowing for sure they're even pilots?!
 
After learning of Fred's limitations, I took him flying in our C 150, and his takeoff and landing skills were impressive. Landings were soft, and he held the nose wheel off until elevator authority faded.

Nothing went into his logbook, just mine, but flying with him was always relaxing and a pleasure. His transition to trike was quick and easy with an instructor.
 
have you ever had someone ask to see your pilot certificate?

Same as a high school diploma or college degree.
Well, I have never had to show anyone my high school diploma or my college degree. I have occasionally had to show my pilot certificates for insurance purposes.
 
After learning of Fred's limitations, I took him flying in our C 150, and his takeoff and landing skills were impressive. Landings were soft, and he held the nose wheel off until elevator authority faded.

Nothing went into his logbook, just mine, but flying with him was always relaxing and a pleasure. His transition to trike was quick and easy with an instructor.

As long as you held the proper endorsements for Fred's airplane, I see nothing wrong with you flying with him. If anyone pushes the issue, you were PIC.
 
In 1970, no endorsement for tailwheel,, it was the assumed standard. Endorsement was for trikes! My first lessons were in tailwheel planes. I had additional tailwheel time after my PPL, solo rental.
 
Same as a high school diploma or college degree.
Not so fast anymore. Many employers are requiring that you submit college transcripts during the interview process, or provide them shortly after hire.
 
In 1970, no endorsement for tailwheel,, it was the assumed standard. Endorsement was for trikes! My first lessons were in tailwheel planes. I had additional tailwheel time after my PPL, solo rental.
Did they need an endorsement for nose wheel / tricycle gear planes? :cool:
 
I have rented planes in Ireland and Argentina without showing my license, but both places, there was an instructor on board to keep me legal in the airspace.

Since I have been ramp checked, I have had my PPL checked by the FAA.


WDD, yes, way back then, if you had not been checked out in a trike, you were not supposed to fly one. Probably poorly enforced by then.
 
WDD, yes, way back then, if you had not been checked out in a trike, you were not supposed to fly one. Probably poorly enforced by then.
There was no regulatory requirements for a tricycle gear endorsement.
 
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