Aileron alignment question

ArrowFlyer86

ArrowFlyer86

Pattern Altitude
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The Little Arrow That Could
Recently after the plane came out of annual I noticed that with the yoke centered both ailerons have a slight downward deflection and are not totally flush with the wing. Example below with the ailerons at their most centered/balanced point.

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PXL_20240711_203442833.jpg
The only thing that's changed recently is during annual I had an item noted as:
"During inspection aileron cable tension was noted as out of spec. Cable tension was adjusted and safetied as per Piper MM." That's the only relevant item I could find.

I don't know if that alteration is what changed it but I do know it was more flush with the wing prior to annual.

Thoughts on how much of a concern this is?
 
ArrowFlyer86 said:
Recently after the plane came out of annual I noticed that with the yoke centered both ailerons have a slight downward deflection and are not totally flush with the wing. Example below with the ailerons at their most centered/balanced point.

The only thing that's changed recently is during annual I had an item noted as:
"During inspection aileron cable tension was noted as out of spec. Cable tension was adjusted and safetied as per Piper MM." That's the only relevant item I could find.
Click to expand...
Take it back and tell them to read the manual and get it right. They tensioned the carrythrough cable without retensioning the aileron cables from the controls. That throws everything off. They adjusted one turnbuckle instead of three or more.

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They tightened #24, but neglected to tighten #12 and #16. That pulls the ailerons down.
 
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Thanks. I was afraid that was the answer... Glad I asked.
 
Also just gotta say there are too many days, like today, where I really feel like I should be cutting a MX check to you and a few other PoA'ers instead of paying full freight to my shop. I get far more complete and honest answers.

So thanks again :)
 
I agree with Dan’s comment that the shop did not do the “I/A/W” part and

likely did not use the Service Manual for the task. Maybe they don’t have

one? My concern is that know some was done incorrectly then what

about the rest?

To rig a Cherokee FIRST the flaps must be rigged using a simple home

made fixture. Then the ailerons are adjusted to match the flaps.

There is nothing “ mystic” about rigging but if you want the performance

that was designed in then you have to have all components in proper

alignment.

So what was done or skipped?
 
Magman said:
So what was done or skipped?
Click to expand...

I agree with everything you said. In my experience, many mechanics take the easy way out and start in the middle of the process, either because they don’t want to take the time to do it right or because the customer would blow a gasket on getting charged for the time to do the rigging job from start to finish. I’ve seen the latter more than the former.

Getting an aircraft rigged right isn’t difficult but it can be a tedious process, especially if the rigger doesn’t know the cause and effect of each action. Seems like the rigger took the easy way out in this case or didn’t stop to think about what would happen if only the carrythrough cable was tightened.
 
mondtster said:
many mechanics take the easy way out and start in the middle of the process, either because they don’t want to take the time to do it right or because the customer would blow a gasket on getting charged for the time to do the rigging job from start to finish. I’ve seen the latter more than the former.
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Let me start by saying you have a lot more experience than me and I don't doubt your take on this from your POV.

But I gotta share my personal experience: shops in my area do not give a damn about handing you an outrageous bill or quote. Especially if your plane is in pieces in their shop during inspection and they know your choices are... limited.

EDIT: [REDACTED COMMENTARY]

But again I appreciate everyone's confirmation that this was not done properly.
 
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ArrowFlyer86 said:
...then I'm probably better off wrenching it myself in the hangar. At least then I know what's been done and what's not.
Click to expand...


If you're not already, start doing owner-assisted annuals. The shop will be more diligent and thorough when you're there looking and learning. If this shop won't allow it, go elsewhere.
 
Half Fast said:
If you're not already, start doing owner-assisted annuals. The shop will be more diligent and thorough when you're there looking and learning. If this shop won't allow it, go elsewhere.
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I asked to do it here and last year at another shop. Neither approved it.
 
One of the reasons owners like owner assist is the prospect of saving money.

However many of the “Mechanically Declined” can really slow the process

down if they don’t understand the tasks.


Not all shops/ Techs are familiar and geared up for every type aircraft .

When rigging Cherokees the flap/ aileron and the Bellcrank Positioning

Fixtures can be made up in about 1 hour of shop time. They are ESSENTIAL

for proper rigging.

More likely to be misunderstood is adjustment of the flap pushrod.

Some folks find out that you don’t really have to remove the flap to

adjust the pushrod.. The bolt securing it to the flap need not be removed.

The flap pushrod made from hex stock has a left hand thread on one end

and right on the other. Similar to a turnbuckle. Makes it easy.


I suggest OP check the travel of the aileron and compare both sides.

UP on both sides should be very close and the same with DOWN.

Note that DOWN does not equal. UP.

If travels do not match its likely the Aileron System was rigged w/o

the Bellcranks in Neutral. This would cause unusual roll characteristics.
 
Magman said:
If travels do not match its likely the Aileron System was rigged w/o the Bellcranks in Neutral. This would cause unusual roll characteristics.
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With them both down, some speed is lost. The stall characteristics are also messed up.
 
This again brings up the issue of what is an Annual Inspection?
It's an inspection.
Resolving any discrepancies is NOT part of the Annual Inspection. It is maintenance.
What we should be instructing the shops to do is Inspect Only, then present a discrepancy list. We can then discuss which are actual airworthiness issues and which can be deferred.
 
Domenick said:
This again brings up the issue of what is an Annual Inspection?
It's an inspection.
Resolving any discrepancies is NOT part of the Annual Inspection. It is maintenance.
What we should be instructing the shops to do is Inspect Only, then present a discrepancy list. We can then discuss which are actual airworthiness issues and which can be deferred.
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Yes, that's the protocol But how many owners know what is deferrable and what is not? Even some mechanics aren't clear on that, so we see stuff far out of rig, or dead fuel gauges, or ignored structural issues.

From https://www.faa.gov/sites/faa.gov/f...handbooks_manuals/aviation/faa-h-8083-19A.pdf

1722098369937.png

We see that the airplane is airworthy if it conforms to its Type Design, according to the drawings, specifications and other data that are part of the Type Certificate. We get such information from the TCDS and the aircraft's maintenance manuals. Those include the airframe, engine, propeller and other manufacturer manuals.

A cable tension below limits is an airworthiness defect, Retensioning it so that the ailerons are drooped fixes the undertension defect but introduces another defect, that of specified control surface position, and that can be affected by the entire aileron control system. Now another mechanic will adjust the aileron pushrods to get the ailerons lined up with the flaps, and now we have messed-up aileron travels because the bellcranks are not properly positioned and so they contact the stops when the ailerons have not reached full travels. Control authority is limited.

Obviously, a lot of owners won't understand that. The mechanics didn't, either.

I encountered serious structural defects that the owners were not concerned about. A good example is the serious corrosion pitting that occurs on the underside of the old steel spring-leaf main gear legs on Cessna singles. That pitting leads to sudden leg breakage. Other defects they don't understand include exhaust system cracks. They don't see the difference between aircraft and automobile exhaust systems and their operating temps and how easily carbon monoxide eventually finds its way into the cabin.
 
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If an Owner wants a complete listing of discrepancies before starting any

repairs they must make themself available to discuss the situation as soon

as the Inspection is completed. This can cost more money though. During

the “ Discussion Time” the Tech will likely be “ clocked in “ on the job at

the rate of $1.50 per minute or thereabouts. So what happens if a Tech

finishes the Inspection and there is 2 hours left in the Work Day? Go home?

Remain clocked in on your aircraft? Begin another project? If that happens

your aircraft may go to the back of the pack and maybe even moved out.

Sometimes a limited authorization such as “ go ahead on any items of

$200 or less till we talk can help the situation.


There are lots of Owners that understand the who understand the whole

process and just what is needed. There are also those that think changing

a jug takes less than 1 hour. My belief is that the less they know of what is

involved the more expertise they have on wanting the outrageous

charges reduced.


btw- Many years ago Cessna had a flat rate Manual for many tasks.

It was helpful to a point. Modifications from factory configuration

can drastically alter the time expended.
 
Magman said:
One of the reasons owners like owner assist is the prospect of saving money.
However many of the “Mechanically Declined” can really slow the process
down if they don’t understand the tasks.
Click to expand...

This depends on what the owner is doing and when. The annual inspection itself is just that: an inspection. On most of our spam cans, the owner can do almost everything that's required except the actual inspection look-see plus any ADs that are due, and he can do those things by himself with the A&P not even on the clock. In that situation, it doesn't matter how slow the owner works.

For my annuals, I start a day or two ahead of the A&P showing up. I change the oil, lube all the controls, remove the interior, remove the inspection plates, pull off the cowling, etc., etc. I also update the AD research and identify any that are due, plus print out any relevant SBs and have any required parts on hand. I really don't want to pay an A&P to remove a hundred screws and take the seats and floorboards out. When my guy shows up, all he has to do is inspect, and take care of an AD or two. If there are repairs to be made, chances are I was already aware of them and we've already discussed what to do, but if any surprises turn up I'm right there to see them and discuss them in real time. Once the A&P finishes, I pay him and then I put everything back together at my leisure.

Doing it this way saves a lot of A&P hours and therefore a lot of dollars.

If you have to have the A&P on the clock while you assist in doing things you could do on your own, then yeah, it's probably not going to save you any money and may cost more.
 
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ArrowFlyer86 said:
Let me start by saying you have a lot more experience than me and I don't doubt your take on this from your POV.

But I gotta share my personal experience: shops in my area do not give a damn about handing you an outrageous bill or quote. Especially if your plane is in pieces in their shop during inspection and they know your choices are... limited.

When I see work like this that you guys on PoA can quickly and unquestionably flag as being obviously wrong, or the 5 other issues I was left to catch post annual, it makes me not only wonder about what wasn't done properly but what wasn't done at all. Not just w/the ailerons but with everything.
What else did they say they did during annual that they just straight up didn't bother doing? Because I've already caught 2 of those items that they gave a small mea culpa on before quietly dropping them from the bill. And this isn't the first shop where that's happened.

The longer I'm in this hobby the more I feel naive in expecting that at $130/hr paid to a certified A&P that they would actually do the work right. B/c if it's just about doing good 'nuff work to save themselves time/tedium or save a difficult convo with a customer, then I'm probably better off wrenching it myself in the hangar. At least then I know what's been done and what's not. Just my hot take.

But again I appreciate everyone's confirmation that this was not done properly.
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EAB looking pretty good eh?
 
Half:

I agree with you completely. I work with several of your “clones”

pertaining to your activities. My only question is how many of those hours

have you logged toward your A & P? Or A or P. Things can change and you

can be in Arrow’s boat! Some of the “clones” are now IA’s themselves.

Currently I have 2 docs, 2 engineers and 1 attorney after the rating.

Some folks believe it’s not just the Inspection; it’s a way of life.

And yes; there is a lot of phone time!
 
My airplane has that issue too and it will pull to the left and not fly straight however if I’m using the left fuel tank first then there is a point where the W&B allows the airplane to fly straight. I guess if I’m heavy on the left side of the airplane that it would lean towards the left? But yes I’d get this addressed if you can.
 
Mandm:

Note that the Rigging Tech is likely not in the aircraft.

Very Important is that you determine if it is more Yaw or Roll.

How you determine this and COMMUNICATE to the Tech will

dictate the action needed.
 
Magman said:
My only question is how many of those hours
have you logged toward your A & P? Or A or P.
Click to expand...

None. I'm happily retired and even if I wanted to get my A&P, I'd be too old to use it by the time I got there.

Now if the FAA ever created some sort of limited ticket that would let me wrench on my own little spam can, I might be interested. But I'm not going to take a few years out of a happy retirement to learn everything from rag wings to turboprops just so I can do a little more of the work on my own baby Beech.
 
Retirement ? What does that mean?
 
Magman said:
Retirement ? What does that mean?
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It means getting out of bed when you feel like it, riding the motorcycle anytime you get a nice day, flying whenever you like and not dealing with anything but CAVU if you don't want to, never having a boss or coworker pizz you off ever again, going fishing whenever you want to, hiking with your spouse, taking a road trip anytime the mood strikes, having time to give away to charities, meeting friends for lunch without worrying about getting back to the office, spending an afternoon learning a new song on the guitar, catching up on home improvements, building something in your shop just for the fun of it, having a pretty day and deciding to fly to the beach for lunch and to wade in the surf, extending a trip for a few days if you're having a good time, sleeping all night without waking at 3am to toss and turn over some worry at the office, going out to breakfast and lingering over coffee as long as you like, taking a month-long trip to see new places, spending a weekday afternoon at the gun range, taking a class just for fun, ...........

Shall I continue?
 
I like your list!

Seems like it’s doing the things you want to do.

Mine is different but similar concept for 27 years; sort of.

Aviation does play a big role though.
 
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Half Fast said:
It means getting out of bed when you feel like it, riding the motorcycle anytime you get a nice day, flying whenever you like and not dealing with anything but CAVU if you don't want to, never having a boss or coworker pizz you off ever again, going fishing whenever you want to, hiking with your spouse, taking a road trip anytime the mood strikes, having time to give away to charities, meeting friends for lunch without worrying about getting back to the office, spending an afternoon learning a new song on the guitar, catching up on home improvements, building something in your shop just for the fun of it, having a pretty day and deciding to fly to the beach for lunch and to wade in the surf, extending a trip for a few days if you're having a good time, sleeping all night without waking at 3am to toss and turn over some worry at the office, going out to breakfast and lingering over coffee as long as you like, taking a month-long trip to see new places, spending a weekday afternoon at the gun range, taking a class just for fun, ...........

Shall I continue?
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I'm jealous!
 
Frankly, I'm busier now than before I retired.
And Half, you described my annuals to a T.
 
Domenick said:
Frankly, I'm busier now than before I retired.
Click to expand...

So am I much of the time (it ebbs and flows) but I’m busy doing things I want to do, not things I have to do. I will never, ever, neverever write an employee performance review, a department budget, a promotion plan, or a staffing plan ever again!!
 
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To non-retired:

The reason retirees are so busy Is that all your priorities change.

I still do Annuals etc but all my clients know that grandkids hockey,

BMX and birthdays are more important than a mag drop.

Things do get done; but not before the “ crack of noon”!

Rather than taking phone calls all day I text folks and plan to

chat after 9 pm. Driving to check Airplane A and then be on the phone

Re Airplane B is counterproductive and may result in another drive.

I really like to help with issues; but on my schedule. YMMV
 
My 182P was blowing the flap breaker intermittently. It occurred at the end of the full extension. Limit switches were blamed. Limit switches were replaced. Still intermittent. Flaps were adjusted. Then breaker blew at full retraction (you could hear the motor strain as it ran the flap to the up stop and then some). A&P #2 then came on scene adjusted flap up stop and now the flaps are 1 or 2 degrees extended when fully retracted. I don’t like that and it seems a crutch for something that used to work fine but whose root cause has not been determined or one “fix” leading to another issue like your aileron problem. Needs attention.

I might not have retired if the corporate BS had not gotten so tiresome. My tolerance for BS had gotten shorter and shorter. Been almost 2 months now. I’ve got family to attend to (wife, adult children, elderly parents), friends to spend quality time with, pups that love the attention, machines to maintain (3 oil changes this week), flying that needs doing, and house/yard. Been asked “do I miss work”? Not yet…
 
It seems to me 455’s flap issue should be addressed with Service Manual in

hand starting from square 1. Ie Pushrod Length. It does sound like the

Limit Switches are allowing overextension but that may be a symptom of

other bandaids.


My wife thought I was “retiring” but I took early out and have had several

hats to wear since them . All aviation related. If I actually stopped

what some folks call “ work” I would likely just hang at the airport anyway.


Half: Some years ago there was talk of splitting A & P into 4 parts.

A would be pressurized or non-pressurized. P would be piston and turbine.

This would likely result in lower requirements for the J-3 and 172 types.

There appeared to be little interest so it gained no traction.
 
455 Bravo Uniform said:
My 182P was blowing the flap breaker intermittently. It occurred at the end of the full extension. Limit switches were blamed. Limit switches were replaced. Still intermittent. Flaps were adjusted. Then breaker blew at full retraction (you could hear the motor strain as it ran the flap to the up stop and then some). A&P #2 then came on scene adjusted flap up stop and now the flaps are 1 or 2 degrees extended when fully retracted. I don’t like that and it seems a crutch for something that used to work fine but whose root cause has not been determined or one “fix” leading to another issue like your aileron problem. Needs attention.
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Bad rigging. This:
Magman said:
It seems to me 455’s flap issue should be addressed with Service Manual in

hand starting from square 1. Ie Pushrod Length. It does sound like the

Limit Switches are allowing overextension but that may be a symptom of

other bandaids.
Click to expand...
Those limit switches are on the flap actuator, inside the wing, with no access hole beneath them. To make it worse, they're on the backside of the actuator, mounted on small aluminum blocks on an aluminum rod, with tiny hex socket head setscrews to hold them in position. Just trying to see them with a flashlight and mirror is fun, never mind trying to get your hand in there with the tiny hex key to adjust them, and microswitches are really fussy about positioning. You have to get those switches activating exactly when the flaps reach their mechanical limits, or the flaps will stop short, or the motor will try to move them past the stops and blow the breaker.

So the adjustments are just shortcut by mechanics, and eventually the whole system is out of rig. Sometimes one flap ends up going down further than the other, introducing a bit of rolling tendency on final. Annoying.

There's another factor that the service manuals don't mention. At least, I've not seen it anywhere. The Cessna strut-braced high wing airplanes use eccentric bushings in the aft spar carrythrough, to adjust angle of incidence so that the airplane flies level with the ball centered. Those eccentrics are circular, meaning that while rotating them to adjust the incidence, the spar is also moving in or out a little, angling the wing forward or back a small amount. The angling is no problem; it doesn't change the CL much at all, but that spar movement is. The aileron and flap cables run just aft of it, and when the spar moves out, those cables get tighter, and moving it in slackens them. Slackening flap cables will result in flap asymmetry between the left and right sides, with the left lagging the right. Tightening aileron cables makes the controls stiff, and slackening them results in poor handling, inadequate travels, and reflexed ailerons in cruise. At Vne flutter might become a problem.
 
Dan Thomas said:
With them both down, some speed is lost. The stall characteristics are also messed up.
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I'd also be concerned about the additional (though minute) added bending moment on the wing and what that might means for Va, fatigue life, etc.
 
Talked to the shop owner/A&P about the issue and relayed what I stated in my initial post w/pictures and everything.
Their view is that the issue cannot be due to any of their adjustments with the cable tension and they believe we have to adjust control rods?
If anyone has any strong opinions on whether that's definitively right or wrong, I'd be much appreciate of hearing them. I don't have the experience working on these systems to speak with any authority.
But I really don't want to go from bad to worse if they do the wrong adjustment to compensate for bad tensions adjustments.

EDIT: Also, I should add they reserved the right to change their mind based on what they see in person tomorrow.
 
I built the either the aileron or the flap rigging tool for the cherokee as per the specs in the manual. Cost about $9 in parts from the local big box. At annual time, it goes in the baggage area with the oil filter, oil, ELT battery, and all the other consumables. The shop has the bellcrank tool, so I don't worry about it. I remove everything not nailed down in the cherokee so when the shop drives over, it's ready to go. No, I don't remover the inspection plates - gotta leave the apprentices something to do. Shop also has instructions to call for my approval for anything the find other than an AD.
 
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ArrowFlyer86 said:
Talked to the shop owner/A&P about the issue and relayed what I stated in my initial post w/pictures and everything.
Their view is that the issue cannot be due to any of their adjustments with the cable tension and they believe we have to adjust control rods?
If anyone has any strong opinions on whether that's definitively right or wrong, I'd be much appreciate of hearing them. I don't have the experience working on these systems to speak with any authority.
But I really don't want to go from bad to worse if they do the wrong adjustment to compensate for bad tensions adjustments.

EDIT: Also, I should add they reserved the right to change their mind based on what they see in person tomorrow.
Click to expand...
Does the shop have the maintenance and parts manual for the Arrow? If not, I'd go find another shop even if it's not convenient. Section V - Surface Controls. 2A19-2B1 Aileron Controls. Note: The bellcrank rigging tool is another one of those DIY that takes maybe 10 min to fabricate in the shop.

To check and adjust the rigging of the aileron controls, first set the right and left aileron bellcranks
at neutral position. (Ascertain that the control chains have been rigged per paragraph 5-6.) This may
be accomplished by the following procedure:
1. Place tee bar in full forward position. Maintain in this position by use of a suitable tool or by
placing weights on aft side of stabilator if stabilator cables have been previously tensioned.
2. Remove the access plate to each aileron bellcrank located on the underside of the wing.
forward of the inboard end of the aileron by removing the plate attaching screws.
3. Affix a bellcrank rigging tool, as shown in Figure 5-4, between the forward arm of each
bellcrank and the adjacent rib. (This tool may be fabricated to dimensions given in Figure 5-4.)
The slotted end of the tool fits on the arm forward of. and adjacent to, the primary control cable
end. The other end of the tool is positioned so that the side of the tool contacts the aft side of the
bellcrank stop. The bellcrank must be moved to allow a snug fit of the tool between the
bellcrank arm and rib. To do so. it may be necessary to loosen a primary control cable or the
balance cable. Neutral position of the bellcranks may also be found by locating the centers of
the forward and aft cable connection holes an equal distance from the adjacent inboard wing rib.
 
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murphey said:
Does the shop have the maintenance and parts manual for the Arrow? If not, I'd go find another shop even if it's not convenient.
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Yeah, they have a massive library of maintenance manuals... Plus they own and operate their own Arrow 2.
 
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