RV Crash due to belted controls
- Thread starter Hengelo
- Start date
Controls free, full extent of travel, and correct- check. ALWAYS, on the ramp and at the run up after auto pilot on, disconnect/off.
Lindberg
Final Approach
Multiple red flags about that story. But the main one is, how do you not notice that the passenger controls next to you are belted. And if it was one of the tandem RVs, why would you belt the back seat controls instead of the front.
Princesspilot206
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Princesspilot
I think this story is fake. Where is the news article?
tsts4
Pattern Altitude
My guess is it’s one of the handful of factory built S-SLA RV-12s that are out there.
Clip4
Final Approach
Looks like a common RV thing.
generalaviationnews.com
Failure to remove seat belt flight control lock proves fatal for RV-8 pilot — General Aviation News
The pilot's failure to remove the seat belt used as a flight control lock from the aft cockpit control stick before takeoff, which resulted in a loss of control during takeoff and collision with terrain.
generalaviationnews.com
Baked Potato
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Flight schools. I've done it.
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Drake the Outlaw
Whether this story is true or not, this exact thing happened at a fly-in 25 or so years ago. Maybe the Golden West fly-in. The deceased pilot's family sued everyone in sight including the fly-in organizers and the EAA which was a co-sponsor of the fly-in. About that time, EAA stopped being a co-sponsor of fly-in's like Sun-n-Fun, Golden West, etc.
wanttaja
En-Route
Probably thinking of SEA99FA105, an RV-6A at the Arlington Fly-In in 1999. IIRC, the fly-in and EAA were hit by a multimillion-dollar judgment that was eventually set aside. Did lead to the end of EAA involvement in local fly-ins. The plaintiff's major claim was in regard to allegedly tardy reaction by first responders.
The NTSB report is rather ambiguous, regarding whether the stick had been strapped back.
Two witnesses, both of whom were familiar with RV-6 series aircraft, said that they remember that when they were looking at the accident aircraft in the parking area, the right seatbelt had been looped around the front of the right control stick, and the stick seemed to be pulled nearly to the full-back position (a common parking practice among many pilots). One of the witnesses said that he had observed the seatbelt in this position as the pilot hurriedly prepared the aircraft for departure just prior to the airshow. One of the witnesses was not near the aircraft when it started up for departure, but the other was. This witness said that although he watched the pilot start the aircraft and taxi for departure, he was not in a position where he could see whether the pilot had removed the belt from around the control stick. He further commented that, although he could not see the position of the belt itself, he does not remember noting that the elevator was in the up position as the aircraft was taxied toward the runway. Other witnesses also remembered seeing the aircraft taxi to the runway, and none of them reported specifically noting that the elevator was significantly deflected toward the up position.
During the investigation, the right control stick was inspected to determine if any evidence could be found that would indicate the pilot had left the right seat belt looped around the stick. Although there were other places in the cockpit where portions of burned or melted seatbelt material was found, no such indications were seen on the right control stick. In addition, there were no gouges, scrapes, scarring or any other indication consistent with seatbelt buckle interference/contact on the front of the stick.
Ron Wanttaja
skyking3286
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In response, we started to shut down the departures 15 minutes before the NOTAM to give pilots time to prepare and not rush. Plus numerous announcements during the day about it and a flag that was raised to say no engine starts. One can assume that pilots would know not to rush, but assuming is always tested at some point. The only other thing would be a low time in type pilot trying to do a max climb in front of a crowd. This was so tragic on many fronts and for the EAA the end of innocence.
unsafervguy
En-Route
rv-12 is a LSA that a lot of flight schools use
Looks like this might be it. https://katu.com/news/local/pilot-i...in-scappoose-airport-closed-for-investigation
Lindberg
Final Approach
How do you miss that?
wanttaja
En-Route
You're in a rush, or
Something interrupts the flow of your pre-takeoff checks, or
You are distracted by family problems, or
You, personally, don't lock the controls like this but someone came by when you weren't there and was worried because the control surfaces were being batted by the wind.
Probably the biggest factor: You don't think you can make a mistake like that, so it never enters your mind that it might happen.
My 1998-2022 homebuilt accident database lists 26 accidents (more than one per year) due to control blockage. Six of them are due to passenger interference, but the rest are locked controls, cargo shifting, etc.
Please, folks, do NOT look at this accident and say, "What an idiot." Instead, take it as a lesson that any one of us can make a mistake. We have to strive to NOT make those mistakes, and believing we are such a hot pilot that we CAN'T err is how we get killed.
Ron Wanttaja
Lindberg
Final Approach
I mean literally, how do you not see that right next to.
And yeah, I think this pilot is pretty dumb. Belt the left-hand stick so it's impossible for even a blind man who doesn't move the controls between startup and takeoff to miss.
hindsight2020
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Don't judge the plausibility of that omission on just the picture. Remember, the airframe in that picture is wildly deformed/ buckled back. It is possible the level the belt sat before the accident was much lower on the stick, providing a much more pitch neutral position than the picture intimates.
As such, it could have still given the perception of controls neutral, no restriction to stick back, but retain the inability to push the nose significantly forward of neutral when the need arose, leading to loss of control while slow/stalled. It's very plausible to have that scenario get by while distracted/channelized etc, even in a side by side configuration (<--presumably the reason some people feel compelled to call the pilot dumb vis a vis the tandem cockpit flavor of this error aka Snort's accident).
As such, it could have still given the perception of controls neutral, no restriction to stick back, but retain the inability to push the nose significantly forward of neutral when the need arose, leading to loss of control while slow/stalled. It's very plausible to have that scenario get by while distracted/channelized etc, even in a side by side configuration (<--presumably the reason some people feel compelled to call the pilot dumb vis a vis the tandem cockpit flavor of this error aka Snort's accident).
Ed Haywood
En-Route
Exhibit A: Snort Snodgrass
DaleB
Final Approach
It’s also possible that the right side stick was NOT belted, and what you see in the picture is where a seat belt ended up after the pilot got out or was taken out of the plane. What you’re seeing in those pics is the scene well after the crash and after numerous people have had their paws all over things.
hindsight2020
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The assumption of pax side belted comes from the narrative of the redditor. What is the connection of the poster to the accident? We don't know, he didn't disclose that. So as always, it's evidenciary support filed under the "trust me bro" tab.
In fairness, this is the PTSB (POA Transporation Safety Board). We are the Rainbolt of safety investigations. We don't need to crawl and take 2 years to admit we don't know like those infant felines at the NTSB. Though unfortunately we can't be physically IN the accident like the DTSB (gryder) does with regularity, the admitted gold standard in this space
In fairness, this is the PTSB (POA Transporation Safety Board). We are the Rainbolt of safety investigations. We don't need to crawl and take 2 years to admit we don't know like those infant felines at the NTSB. Though unfortunately we can't be physically IN the accident like the DTSB (gryder) does with regularity, the admitted gold standard in this space
Lindberg
Final Approach
Corroborated by the photos.
hindsight2020
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hindsight2020
Right, but some people are/were arguing the extraction process may have perturbed the scene and the position of the belt during the accident isn't as depicted by said picture.
I tend to be more charitable and agree the pax side belt was indeed the one belted, but I argue it's possible the height on the stick was much lower, and it's the buckling of that cabin that allows the belt to appear as high as it does in the picture.
I tend to be more charitable and agree the pax side belt was indeed the one belted, but I argue it's possible the height on the stick was much lower, and it's the buckling of that cabin that allows the belt to appear as high as it does in the picture.