RV Crash due to belted controls

Controls free, full extent of travel, and correct- check. ALWAYS, on the ramp and at the run up after auto pilot on, disconnect/off.
 
Sucks for the pilot but I'm gonna guess he didn't use a checklist. Totally avoidable wreck.

No one should call this an 'accident'.

Also 'rental' RV? I'd like to know where I can rent an RV.
 
pfarber said:
Sucks for the pilot but I'm gonna guess he didn't use a checklist. Totally avoidable wreck.

No one should call this an 'accident'.

Also 'rental' RV? I'd like to know where I can rent an RV.
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My guess is it’s one of the handful of factory built S-SLA RV-12s that are out there.
 
Princesspilot206 said:
I think this story is fake. Where is the news article?
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Whether this story is true or not, this exact thing happened at a fly-in 25 or so years ago. Maybe the Golden West fly-in. The deceased pilot's family sued everyone in sight including the fly-in organizers and the EAA which was a co-sponsor of the fly-in. About that time, EAA stopped being a co-sponsor of fly-in's like Sun-n-Fun, Golden West, etc.
 
kyleb said:
Whether this story is true or not, this exact thing happened at a fly-in 25 or so years ago. Maybe the Golden West fly-in. The deceased pilot's family sued everyone in sight including the fly-in organizers and the EAA which was a co-sponsor of the fly-in. About that time, EAA stopped being a co-sponsor of fly-in's like Sun-n-Fun, Golden West, etc.
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Probably thinking of SEA99FA105, an RV-6A at the Arlington Fly-In in 1999. IIRC, the fly-in and EAA were hit by a multimillion-dollar judgment that was eventually set aside. Did lead to the end of EAA involvement in local fly-ins. The plaintiff's major claim was in regard to allegedly tardy reaction by first responders.

The NTSB report is rather ambiguous, regarding whether the stick had been strapped back.

Two witnesses, both of whom were familiar with RV-6 series aircraft, said that they remember that when they were looking at the accident aircraft in the parking area, the right seatbelt had been looped around the front of the right control stick, and the stick seemed to be pulled nearly to the full-back position (a common parking practice among many pilots). One of the witnesses said that he had observed the seatbelt in this position as the pilot hurriedly prepared the aircraft for departure just prior to the airshow. One of the witnesses was not near the aircraft when it started up for departure, but the other was. This witness said that although he watched the pilot start the aircraft and taxi for departure, he was not in a position where he could see whether the pilot had removed the belt from around the control stick. He further commented that, although he could not see the position of the belt itself, he does not remember noting that the elevator was in the up position as the aircraft was taxied toward the runway. Other witnesses also remembered seeing the aircraft taxi to the runway, and none of them reported specifically noting that the elevator was significantly deflected toward the up position.

During the investigation, the right control stick was inspected to determine if any evidence could be found that would indicate the pilot had left the right seat belt looped around the stick. Although there were other places in the cockpit where portions of burned or melted seatbelt material was found, no such indications were seen on the right control stick. In addition, there were no gouges, scrapes, scarring or any other indication consistent with seatbelt buckle interference/contact on the front of the stick.


Ron Wanttaja
 
In response, we started to shut down the departures 15 minutes before the NOTAM to give pilots time to prepare and not rush. Plus numerous announcements during the day about it and a flag that was raised to say no engine starts. One can assume that pilots would know not to rush, but assuming is always tested at some point. The only other thing would be a low time in type pilot trying to do a max climb in front of a crowd. This was so tragic on many fronts and for the EAA the end of innocence.
 
pfarber said:
Sucks for the pilot but I'm gonna guess he didn't use a checklist. Totally avoidable wreck.

No one should call this an 'accident'.

Also 'rental' RV? I'd like to know where I can rent an RV.
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rv-12 is a LSA that a lot of flight schools use
 
Looks like some of the damage may have come from the Rescues extricating the pilot.
 
Lindberg said:
How do you miss that?
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You're in a rush, or

Something interrupts the flow of your pre-takeoff checks, or

You are distracted by family problems, or

You, personally, don't lock the controls like this but someone came by when you weren't there and was worried because the control surfaces were being batted by the wind.

Probably the biggest factor: You don't think you can make a mistake like that, so it never enters your mind that it might happen.

My 1998-2022 homebuilt accident database lists 26 accidents (more than one per year) due to control blockage. Six of them are due to passenger interference, but the rest are locked controls, cargo shifting, etc.

Please, folks, do NOT look at this accident and say, "What an idiot." Instead, take it as a lesson that any one of us can make a mistake. We have to strive to NOT make those mistakes, and believing we are such a hot pilot that we CAN'T err is how we get killed.

Ron Wanttaja
 
wanttaja said:
You're in a rush, or

Something interrupts the flow of your pre-takeoff checks, or

You are distracted by family problems, or

You, personally, don't lock the controls like this but someone came by when you weren't there and was worried because the control surfaces were being batted by the wind.

Probably the biggest factor: You don't think you can make a mistake like that, so it never enters your mind that it might happen.

My 1998-2022 homebuilt accident database lists 26 accidents (more than one per year) due to control blockage. Six of them are due to passenger interference, but the rest are locked controls, cargo shifting, etc.

Please, folks, do NOT look at this accident and say, "What an idiot." Instead, take it as a lesson that any one of us can make a mistake. We have to strive to NOT make those mistakes, and believing we are such a hot pilot that we CAN'T err is how we get killed.

Ron Wanttaja
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I mean literally, how do you not see that right next to.

And yeah, I think this pilot is pretty dumb. Belt the left-hand stick so it's impossible for even a blind man who doesn't move the controls between startup and takeoff to miss.
 
Don't judge the plausibility of that omission on just the picture. Remember, the airframe in that picture is wildly deformed/ buckled back. It is possible the level the belt sat before the accident was much lower on the stick, providing a much more pitch neutral position than the picture intimates.

As such, it could have still given the perception of controls neutral, no restriction to stick back, but retain the inability to push the nose significantly forward of neutral when the need arose, leading to loss of control while slow/stalled. It's very plausible to have that scenario get by while distracted/channelized etc, even in a side by side configuration (<--presumably the reason some people feel compelled to call the pilot dumb vis a vis the tandem cockpit flavor of this error aka Snort's accident).
 
wanttaja said:
Please, folks, do NOT look at this accident and say, "What an idiot." Instead, take it as a lesson that any one of us can make a mistake. We have to strive to NOT make those mistakes, and believing we are such a hot pilot that we CAN'T err is how we get killed.
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Exhibit A: Snort Snodgrass
 
It’s also possible that the right side stick was NOT belted, and what you see in the picture is where a seat belt ended up after the pilot got out or was taken out of the plane. What you’re seeing in those pics is the scene well after the crash and after numerous people have had their paws all over things.
 
The assumption of pax side belted comes from the narrative of the redditor. What is the connection of the poster to the accident? We don't know, he didn't disclose that. So as always, it's evidenciary support filed under the "trust me bro" tab.

In fairness, this is the PTSB (POA Transporation Safety Board). We are the Rainbolt of safety investigations. We don't need to crawl and take 2 years to admit we don't know like those infant felines at the NTSB. Though unfortunately we can't be physically IN the accident like the DTSB (gryder) does with regularity, the admitted gold standard in this space :D
 
PTSB (POA Transporation Safety Board)
"... and now you know, the rest of the story!" :deadhorse:
 
hindsight2020 said:
The assumption of pax side belted comes from the narrative of the redditor. What is the connection of the poster to the accident? We don't know, he didn't disclose that. So as always, it's evidenciary support filed under the "trust me bro" tab.
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Corroborated by the photos.
 
Right, but some people are/were arguing the extraction process may have perturbed the scene and the position of the belt during the accident isn't as depicted by said picture.

I tend to be more charitable and agree the pax side belt was indeed the one belted, but I argue it's possible the height on the stick was much lower, and it's the buckling of that cabin that allows the belt to appear as high as it does in the picture.
 
Whenever I tie the flight controls with a seatbelt, I always tie the the control associated with the pilots seatbelt instead of the passenger seatbelt. That makes it much more likely that it will get noticed.
 
I'm curious how the EAA could be sued for something that is 100% on the pilot?
 
francisco collazos said:
I'm curious how the EAA could be sued for something that is 100% on the pilot?
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A family sued Textron and Lycoming after their family member flew his Cessna into the side of a mountain in foggy conditions. Grief through legal filings.
 
francisco collazos said:
I'm curious how the EAA could be sued for something that is 100% on the pilot?
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The main reason is "deep pockets." The Fly-In was a volunteer affair with little financial standing, but EAA is a multi-million-dollar organization.

It's been 25 years, but IIRC, the plaintiff claimed that the pre-airshow policies set by the fly-in encouraged pilots to make risky efforts to get out before the airshow started, and that the fly-in did not have sufficient resources to respond to an accident, delaying the arrival of help for the crashed pilot.

I'm not saying these are *reasonable* claims, just what the plaintiff said. How they would have been viewed by a jury, we don't know. It's likely a jury would feel that there should have been major crash rescue resources there, just like JFK or LAX. After all, they expect planes like my Fly Baby to have an autopilot and complete radar, right....?

Ron Wanttaja
 
These days, the standard for airshows is to have fire/rescue at the crashed plane within 60 seconds of a mishap.

The airshow I was involved with - and assumedly many others - have three fire engines on site. One engine plus a paramedic ambulance near show center by the announcer/air boss stand, and one at each end of the field. The firefighters are in turnouts, on board the rig, with the engine running. We also started to keep a manned forklift at show center after Eddie Andreini’s crash. That forklift was dedicated exclusively to crash rescue and could not be pulled for other purposes.

A week before the airshow, the final emergency planning meeting takes place, culminating with a tabletop exercise or two. The day before the actual airshow (Friday, rehearsal day), an emergency drill takes place. Outside of a couple top people, no one knows when, exactly where, or what the incident will be. If the responders (fire, medics, police, whoever) are not on scene within the required time, there will be a standdown until the problem is corrected. So far, they’ve always nailed it. Top-notch, very experienced professional emergency services there.

Also things like controlling access to the “hot pits” (area where engines are running). No one enters without a valid need to enter, or without being escorted by someone authorized. Hot pit security has authorization and the full backing of the board of directors to enforce that, even to the point of not allowing a director into the hot pits. The crowd line is run the same way. And it’s done without coming across as being petty or authoritarian.

I would say that any airshow promoter who can’t provide the same level of response (fire and medics at a crash in under a minute, and with the proper equipment and training to do an extrication and extinguishment) need to click Pause, get everything up to snuff and not proceed until they can meet the standard 100% of the time. One preventable death is worse than not having airshows.
 
ateamer said:
These days, the standard for airshows is to have fire/rescue at the crashed plane within 60 seconds of a mishap.

The airshow I was involved with - and assumedly many others - have three fire engines on site. One engine plus a paramedic ambulance near show center by the announcer/air boss stand, and one at each end of the field. The firefighters are in turnouts, on board the rig, with the engine running. We also started to keep a manned forklift at show center after Eddie Andreini’s crash. That forklift was dedicated exclusively to crash rescue and could not be pulled for other purposes.

A week before the airshow, the final emergency planning meeting takes place, culminating with a tabletop exercise or two. The day before the actual airshow (Friday, rehearsal day), an emergency drill takes place. Outside of a couple top people, no one knows when, exactly where, or what the incident will be. If the responders (fire, medics, police, whoever) are not on scene within the required time, there will be a standdown until the problem is corrected. So far, they’ve always nailed it. Top-notch, very experienced professional emergency services there.

Also things like controlling access to the “hot pits” (area where engines are running). No one enters without a valid need to enter, or without being escorted by someone authorized. Hot pit security has authorization and the full backing of the board of directors to enforce that, even to the point of not allowing a director into the hot pits. The crowd line is run the same way. And it’s done without coming across as being petty or authoritarian.

I would say that any airshow promoter who can’t provide the same level of response (fire and medics at a crash in under a minute, and with the proper equipment and training to do an extrication and extinguishment) need to click Pause, get everything up to snuff and not proceed until they can meet the standard 100% of the time. One preventable death is worse than not having airshows.
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For an airshow I agree. The last airshow I was involved in was just after Eddie's crash and our was setup very similar before the new standards came out. I showed the video of Eddie's crash to my response crews as part of the briefing, and simple said "Not here, not today".

But I believe in this case of this RV accident it was a Fly-In, not an airshow or at least not an airshow participant.
 
midwestpa24 said:
For an airshow I agree. The last airshow I was involved in was just after Eddie's crash and our was setup very similar before the new standards came out. I showed the video of Eddie's crash to my response crews as part of the briefing, and simple said "Not here, not today".

But I believe in this case of this RV accident it was a Fly-In, not an airshow or at least not an airshow participant.
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The Airport was being used for a multi-day fly-in that included a formal airshow. The pilot had come in for the fly-in. The airport was slated to close at a given time for the airshow, and the RV pilot rushed his preparations to get out of the airport before the closure. I'm not familiar with the crash-crew configuration used for the air show itself, but it doesn't strike me as unusual if it wasn't in place before the scheduled start of the show. They may well have been at the pre-show briefing.

What it boils down to, then, is what level of protection should pilots who come to fly-ins expect? If the airport SOP is to notify the local fire department if a crash occurs, is that sufficient if there's an EAA pancake breakfast on the field? What about an airport open house with Young Eagles? Can we *not* have a Young Eagles rally if there isn't a fire truck standing by?

Years ago, there was an annual fly-in at a local grass field. Always held on the second Saturday of a particular month. Flyers would go up at other airports, announcements would be made, etc.

Then there was a midair*.

And the week after THAT, lawyers started showing up, "looking for the organizers of the fly-in."

Needless to say, no more fly-in after that.

But...oddly...there are still a bunch of airplanes that show up at that airport on the 2nd Saturday of that month. Owners of hangars at that airport still have tables loaded with food and soft drinks. There's just no ADVERTISING about it. It's all tradition, and word of mouth.

Ron Wanttaja

* I must note that I quit coming to that fly-in before the year with the midair because I found the pattern a bit too wild and woolly, even for me.....
 
wanttaja said:
What it boils down to, then, is what level of protection should pilots who come to fly-ins expect? If the airport SOP is to notify the local fire department if a crash occurs, is that sufficient if there's an EAA pancake breakfast on the field? What about an airport open house with Young Eagles? Can we *not* have a Young Eagles rally if there isn't a fire truck standing by?
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That is the interesting part. 50-100 aircraft show up to an airport, there is some expectation of increased emergency response. 50-100 cars show up to the local mall on a Saturday, just another day.

The majority of airports around the country offer no crash rescue services. Indeed FAA requirements only apply to those with scheduled passenger service, and some with unscheduled service of "Large" aircraft of more than 30 seats. There is no regulatory requirement for GA airports to provide anything more than a extinguisher near the fuel farm.
 
Our airpark hosts a fly-in every year, with 140-ish planes coming in. We get the fire department there for most of the day by giving them lunch (catered barbecue plus homemade desserts), and have a special event insurance policy for the day.

One item on the briefing for the volunteers is that anyone can call a stop to activity at any time.
 
wanttaja said:
The airport was slated to close at a given time for the airshow, and the RV pilot rushed his preparations to get out of the airport before the closure.
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Can’t remember where I read this but it was recently, from an “experienced pilot” (I believe he referred to himself as an old fart): pilots who are in a hurry are in a hurry to die.
 
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