VOR

[Saleh Alzarqa]

Can I as a privet-pilot under the preventive maintenance rules remove a INOP VOR interment and send it to be repaired "twist knob not working" then have a licensed mechanics put it back on the panel when it comes back ?

 

[455 Bravo Uniform]

yes

 

[Half Fast]

You can even reinstall it yourself if you’re under the supervision of an A&P. The A&P will have to sign the logbook, of course.

 

[flyingron]

You can even reinstall it yourself if you’re under the supervision of an A&P. The A&P will have to sign the logbook, of course.

You don't need the A&P as long as you are the owner-pilot. Slide in avionics with the exception of DME, transponders, and DMEs are a PM item.

 

[Half Fast]

You don't need the A&P as long as you are the owner-pilot. Slide in avionics with the exception of DME, transponders, and DMEs are a PM item.

Agreed. I didn’t think most CDIs were slide-in units (are they?), and I assumed that’s what the OP referred to.

 

[flyingron]

Agreed. I didn’t think most CDIs were slide-in units (are they?), and I assumed that’s what the OP referred to.

Oh, I hadn't realized it was the CDI he was replacing. I thought it was the receiver itself.

 

[Half Fast]

Oh, I hadn't realized it was the CDI he was replacing. I thought it was the receiver itself.

I assumed that “twist knob not working” meant the OBS knob, but I could certainly be mistaken.

 

[flyingron]

I assumed that “twist knob not working” meant the OBS knob, but I could certainly be mistaken.

Yeah, probably makes sense.

 

[MauleSkinner]

I assumed that “twist knob not working” meant the OBS knob, but I could certainly be mistaken.

I also assumed that “interment” meant “instrument,” not “radio.”

 

[midlifeflyer]

I also assumed that “interment” meant “instrument,” not “radio.”

A synonym for “burial” could make sense.

 

[MauleSkinner]

A synonym for “burial” could make sense.

That was my first thought, but I couldn’t make the context work.

 

[pfarber]

AnPs are not licensed, we hold a certificate(s).

Also non-trivial removal of weigh (IIRC over 1lb) would require a new W&B calculation and entry.

Yes I am spitting the proverbial hair.

Lastly, if you wanted to fly in IFR you need two VORs, while the one is out you need either a GPS or placard the AC VFR only. You will also need to comply with 91.171 since the VOR is new to the AC.

Probably another half dozen rules could apply....

 

[RussR]

Lastly, if you wanted to fly in IFR you need two VORs, while the one is out you need either a GPS or placard the AC VFR only. You will also need to comply with 91.171 since the VOR is new to the AC.

Please provide a reference for that statement, as I am unaware of a 2-VOR receiver requirement to operate IFR. In fact, some approaches (getting harder to find) have lower minimums specified for users with dual VOR receivers, thereby implying that only one is actually necessary.

 

[flyingron]

A synonym for “burial” could make sense.

I think this is interminable.

 

[flyingron]

AnPs are not licensed, we hold a certificate(s).

Also non-trivial removal of weigh (IIRC over 1lb) would require a new W&B calculation and entry.

Yes I am spitting the proverbial hair.

Lastly, if you wanted to fly in IFR you need two VORs, while the one is out you need either a GPS or placard the AC VFR only. You will also need to comply with 91.171 since the VOR is new to the AC.

Probably another half dozen rules could apply....

The requirement for avionics is only that which is necessary for the route being flown. Lots of people fly with only one VOR (and no GPS). You may find it difficult to take a checkride (since you'll need to find three different approaches), but as far as IFR flight in general, one is all that is required.

 

[Doc Holliday]

Lastly, if you wanted to fly in IFR you need two VORs, while the one is out you need either a GPS or placard the AC VFR only.

Wrong.

 

[Half Fast]

I don't think you even need one VOR if you have GPS.

 

[flyingron]

I don't think you even need one VOR if you have GPS.

True. In fact while your options are quite limited, you could possibly fly IFR with just an ADF.

 

[MRC01]

You don't need the A&P as long as you are the owner-pilot. Slide in avionics with the exception of DME, transponders, and DMEs are a PM item.

Why not DMEs?

 

[Clip4]

Can I as a privet-pilot under the preventive maintenance rules remove a INOP VOR interment and send it to be repaired "twist knob not working" then have a licensed mechanics put it back on the panel when it comes back ?

If you mean the radio, yes. If you mean the indicator, you must have an AP return to service.

Removing and replacing self-contained, front instrument panel-mounted navigation and communication devices that employ tray-mounted connectors that connect the unit when the unit is installed into the instrument panel, (excluding automatic flight control systems, transponders, and microwave frequency distance measuring equipment (DME)). The approved unit must be designed to be readily and repeatedly removed and replaced, and pertinent instructions must be provided. Prior to the unit's intended use, and operational check must be performed in accordance with the applicable sections of part 91 of this chapter.

 

[MauleSkinner]

Lastly, if you wanted to fly in IFR you need two VORs, while the one is out you need either a GPS or placard the AC VFR only. You will also need to comply with 91.171 since the VOR is new to the AC.

Probably another half dozen rules could be made up....

FIFY.

 

[asicer]

Why not DMEs?

Because that's what Part 43 Appendix A says.

 

[MRC01]

Because that's what Part 43 Appendix A says.

Sure, but why? Most regs are based on some kind of reason. Often that reason is clear, but in this case I can't imagine why it's fine to remove & reinstall slide/tray/rack/mount radios, but not a DME.

 

[flyingron]

Why not DMEs?

Because that's what the reg says. They don't trust you to mess with autopilots or microwave stuff (DME, transponder).

 

[WDD]

I don't think you even need one VOR if you have GPS.

I believe you're correct. Hidden behind GRABCARD "R" for Radio in 91.205 (d) (2) is "Two way radio communication and navigation equipment suitable for the route to be flown".

So if you're flying an RNAV route and an LPV approach, you don't need a VOR driven CDI.

The exception is 91.205 (e) stating that above 24,000 you need a VOR IF a VOR is needed "to be suitable" for the route flown.

(Which, doesn't really make sense. If I need a VOR driven CDI for my route to be flown it doesn't matter what altitude I fly, I have to have it).

 

[Half Fast]

Most regs are based on some kind of reason.

Generally speaking, Appendix A is not. That’s why the Coleal LOI said the list should be treated as examples, not a limitation.

 

[MRC01]

Because that's what the reg says. They don't trust you to mess with autopilots or microwave stuff (DME, transponder).

Sure, but if you somehow mess up (hard to imagine how) sliding it in and out of the rack, the impact is the same. You're allowed to remove & reinstall the radio, but if you mess that up you lose the VOR, which is just as bad or worse as losing the DME.

Perhaps the distinction is this: DMEs and transpoders both transmit. VORs are receive only. Anything that transmits, if it gets messed up, can potentially mess up the ATC system. If so, that seems a weak distinction because radios also transmit, and you can remove & reinstall them.

Sure, but why? Most regs are based on some kind of reason. ...

Generally speaking, Appendix A is not. That’s why the Coleal LOI said the list should be treated as examples, not a limitation.

That seems to be the case with the DME exception. It doesn't seem like Coleal would affect the DME exception, because it's explicitly called out. Coleal is about being able to do maintenance not listed, rather than allowing maintenance that is specifically prohibited.

 

[Half Fast]

Perhaps the distinction is this: DMEs and transpoders both transmit.

So do comm radios, and you can swap them.

 

[flyingron]

Sure, but if you somehow mess up (hard to imagine how) sliding it in and out of the rack, the impact is the same. You're allowed to remove & reinstall the radio, but if you mess that up you lose the VOR, which is just as bad or worse as losing the DME.

Perhaps the distinction is this: DMEs and transpoders both transmit. VORs are receive only. Anything that transmits, if it gets messed up, can potentially mess up the ATC system. If so, that seems a weak distinction because radios also transmit, and you can remove & reinstall them.

VORs are almost always colocated with a COMM radio, which transmits, and those aren't excluded. But it's transmitting over a gigahertz that they're concerned about (since they don't care about GPS).

 

[MRC01]

VORs are almost always colocated with a COMM radio, which transmits, and those aren't excluded. But it's transmitting over a gigahertz that they're concerned about (since they don't care about GPS).

Interesting. On a related note, COMM radios can jam GPS and other signals into the GHz range because they always have some amount of harmonic distortion. The 12th & 13th harmonics of COMM frequencies hit the GPS bands. That's why one sometimes has to install lowpass filters on the COMM radio outputs in order to get good GPS reception. For example, I had to install TED 4-70 filters to get my uAvionix TailBeacon working properly.

But with a properly working radio that harmonic distortion is not powerful enough to jam others - it doesn't radiate very far, typically only one's own airplane.

 

[flyingron]

Yep, the IFR GPS installation instructions usually list a few comm frequencies to test to see if that is necessary in your installation. I know mine will cause GPS nav failrues for about 30 seconds after I transmit on certain ATC frequencies.