bbchien
Touchdown! Greaser!
Maybe we need to reinstitute compulsive 2 year service again. That would go a long way to "understanding" AND restrain our overseas forays, both.
100% T&P va rating and a 1st class medical
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Tarheelpilot
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I agree. This place is so detached from reality. As long as Walmart has crap from China and the gas station can fill up the explorer no one cares.
Having a draft changes things on a fundamental level.
tsts4
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Concur, but IMO you need to ***** from an informed position, which based upon a number of posts here doesn't seem to be the case and I assume come from folks who have not served and don't understand anything about the military beyond what they've seen in the movies and on TV or how VA benefits and entitlements function. IOW a lot of misinformed assumptions.
Ed Haywood
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Were you ever hit?
Ed Haywood
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Nobody who has served in the military thinks that is a good idea.
Tarheelpilot
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Sure. Happens everyday. Nothing makes it wrong for them to express their opinion or vent their frustration about how they perceive the situation.
Since you have some understanding about how it works, share that knowledge. Sitting back and saying they have no right to question because they have not served is just as bad as their uniformed rant about how the veterans touched them in the bad place.
To be blunt. Your statement is no better than their uniformed whining.
tsts4
Pattern Altitude
Nope, not even close. The nearest impact to me was about around 100 meters away. But in Iraq I kept a log of the attacks (bear in mind I was a fobbit) and it was 275 during the first 3 months (generally 1-3 88mm rockets) and 7 for the last 3 months. Primarily at Balad, but it happened at other locations I was at (TQ and Spiecher)— nothing at Victory or Talil. Had another round land roughly the same distance when I was in Afghanistan (Bagram). But these aren’t really precisely aimed rounds so when the klaxon sounds and the CRAM lights off it’s a golden BB at that point.
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tsts4
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Fair enough except in this is case I know what I’m talking about. But don’t be butt hurt when called out for not knowing the facts.
Tarheelpilot
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That’s not true.
Tarheelpilot
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I’m not hurt by any thing you could say. I would have to care what you thought of me for that to happen, I don’t. I’m just telling you that you can drop that “if you have not served you can’t complain.” There is ZERO moral superiority earned for serving. None zilch zero.
There is absolutely no requirement to have military service background to question or hold accountable those that have service history.
Tough if you don’t like that…
Let’s take this back a step. You seem to have some emotional attachment to the veteran part of this discussion.
Answer this question for me.
Do you think it’s appropriate for welfare recipients to have input or concerns about welfare benefits? What would you say to someone on food stamps telling you to back off and stop asking questions because you had never been on food stamps? The implication here is only those that benefit are allowed to have valid opinions. That’s absurd.
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tsts4
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That’s not really what I’m saying. Some of the posts are heavy on assumptions and short on facts. I’m not dissing anyone’s right to complain, but to make certain assumptions and statements without walking a mile in our shoes irks me, particularly since I do have a rating and am definitely not gaming the system. It’s just my opinion and I absolutely don’t care whether you agree or not.
tsts4
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There’s no absolutes for sure but anecdotally there are a number that feel that way. I work at CENTCOM and IMO a draft/mandatory mil service would definitely not fix the issues we currently face from a force structure perspective.
Tarheelpilot
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Looks like we have agreed we can both **** off.
There is always common ground in any debate.
Tailwinds.
tsts4
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I respect debate and our ability to hold what is really a civil discourse. In the end we’ll agree to disagree but I’d gladly shake your hand and offer you an adult beverage of your choice anytime.
Tarheelpilot
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To be clear I don’t think it would help force structure at all.
But I bet it would sure make our population care a whole lot more about where our force was deployed and for what reasons.
I am of the opinion our elected government has been given a free hand by the citizens to use (abuse) the military for their political whims because we have a voluntary force. That’s the one lesson the politicians learned in Vietnam: No more drafts and we can do whatever we want.
Tarheelpilot
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It’s the basis of our republic.
I have meant no disrespect in any of my posts.
I’ll have another Irish whisky please.
Edit:
The second round is on me ;-)
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tsts4
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Drinking an Old Fashioned at the moment as it’s National Bourbon Day. If you make it to Osh or are ever in the Tampa area or SNF I’ll hook you up for sure.
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I agree that there is something to “cumulative effect” for someone that serves 20+ years no matter what their job was. In my VA ratings (financial) class the instructor said “do you believe there are those that don’t claim anything after 20 years…I mean, you’re not the same person as you were when you came in.” Well, personally I had no issues after 20 years. Was I the same person physically, no but that doesn’t mean I’m disabled either.
My other VA disabilities brief highlights perfectly the problem with the system. Out of 30 people I was probably the oldest (40) with maybe a female MSG sitting to my left. The rest were all young 20 something year olds in the aviation field. After this speech that I can only describe as a sales speech, he finishes with “now who’s gonna file for disability?!” I was surrounded by young soldiers with their hands up and **** eating grins on their faces. I was the only one without my hand up. You are not going to convince me that all of those young, healthy soldiers deserves a dime from the govt in disability after a whopping 4 years of service. They got a good job with plenty of benefits (GI Bill) already. Now the 40 + yr old female MSG who was vigorously writing notes pertaining to her particular situation (medical retirement) most likely had disabilities. But, she also weighed like 250 lbs.
I really don’t put the primary blame on my friends for taking the money. As they would say, “it’s there for the taking.” I primarily fault the VA for making it so easy to lie and allowing too many things to be claimed and too many that can’t be linked to service. Doesn’t change the fact I’ll make fun of them though. I was poking a friend a while back who’s retired CG pilot and gets 90 %. “Where’s your wheelchair?” They in turn make fun of me for not taking advantage of the system. They’re still my friends and when the nation called, they would hang it out on the line for me and I for them.
My other VA disabilities brief highlights perfectly the problem with the system. Out of 30 people I was probably the oldest (40) with maybe a female MSG sitting to my left. The rest were all young 20 something year olds in the aviation field. After this speech that I can only describe as a sales speech, he finishes with “now who’s gonna file for disability?!” I was surrounded by young soldiers with their hands up and **** eating grins on their faces. I was the only one without my hand up. You are not going to convince me that all of those young, healthy soldiers deserves a dime from the govt in disability after a whopping 4 years of service. They got a good job with plenty of benefits (GI Bill) already. Now the 40 + yr old female MSG who was vigorously writing notes pertaining to her particular situation (medical retirement) most likely had disabilities. But, she also weighed like 250 lbs.
I really don’t put the primary blame on my friends for taking the money. As they would say, “it’s there for the taking.” I primarily fault the VA for making it so easy to lie and allowing too many things to be claimed and too many that can’t be linked to service. Doesn’t change the fact I’ll make fun of them though. I was poking a friend a while back who’s retired CG pilot and gets 90 %. “Where’s your wheelchair?” They in turn make fun of me for not taking advantage of the system. They’re still my friends and when the nation called, they would hang it out on the line for me and I for them.
Ed Haywood
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20 years Army: 4 infantry, 16 special forces. 3 years deployed, 12 years jump status. zero rating. I don't want to take the money from the admin clerks.
Overstatement. Dr. Bruce isn't "nobody."
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3G
Philosophically, if a condition can be medically controlled, I’m all for treatment instead of payment. A CPAP for the Meal Team Six fellas with a 50% sleep apnea rating is more appropriate than a CPAP and $1200/month tax free. Same with hearing aids instead of hearing aids AND a check.
The one, true malingering idiot I had got himself into MEB that eventually resulted in medical retirement. While all that was underway, he got himself on SSDI and wrangled the caregiver stipend for his wife. This guy literally just stopped coming to the squadron on day and told his supervisor the docs said the workspace aggravated his PTSD.
Amazingly, there was no convalescent leave or duty limitation slips from the Med Group, so I asked our flight surgeon how this worked. The flight surgeon floated it by the Med Group commander who dug into it and gave me a call to let me know there was no DLC preventing the dude from being at work, it just limited what he could do while at work.
It eventually took a written order for this guy to show up at work. When he did start showing up, he’d have his wife pick him up early because he was “too fatigued” to complete the duty day. When I found out about that, I had to order the guy to go to sick call when he got “too fatigued”.
The docs told him to stop wasting their time and go back to work because there was zero physiological reason he could not sit at a desk for 8 hours/day.
We ended up putting him in the command suite and his only job was to be the Walmart greeter for the squadron. That’s when the emotional support dog showed up.
The dog was the best thing about that whole arrangement. The dog could follow orders; I told the dog if defecated in the building he was getting sent to a shelter. That dog never, ever crapped in the building and always had a good attitude.
tsts4
Pattern Altitude
That’s fine, but it’s a benefit you earned and not a handout. Sounds like you are a unicorn based on your service if you retired with no service related issues, which is rare even for us admin, non-operator types which was my original point that has been lost in the sauce. My wife also is a retired USAF Vet and has a zero rating but that’s because she kinda blew off the TAP process and no one was there to mentor her on the VA process. I was only at my 12 year point at that time so was clueless as well plus we were geographically separated at the time which didn’t help.
I've read through the thread and find everyone's thoughts interesting. I have a slightly different perspective on the matter, though.
I never served in the military, but my dad, my FIL, my BIL, and 3 of my 4 uncles did. I spent my career developing hardware for the military, and perhaps that explains my viewpoint.
I see the military as a tool for applying physical force wherever necessary in order to achieve the nation's objectives. It's not a laboratory for social experimentation, it's not a jobs program, and it's not an educational system. Whether it does some of those things is incidental to its primary purpose. Every decision we make for the military, whether it's VA benefits or recruiting methods or compulsory service or pay rates or anything else, should be made on a basis of what provides the most effective and efficient fighting force.
I would set aside the questions of what is "fair" or "ethical" as relatively unimportant. What is important is the question of whether the current benefits system is the best way of recruiting and retaining the fighting force we need. I haven't seen any discussion in this thread from that point of view, and I'd be very interested in learning everyone's thoughts.
Personally, in regard to a draft, I think compulsory service would get us lots of personnel who are unwilling, unqualified, and don't want to become qualified, resulting in us spending excessive resources to get a less capable force.
I never served in the military, but my dad, my FIL, my BIL, and 3 of my 4 uncles did. I spent my career developing hardware for the military, and perhaps that explains my viewpoint.
I see the military as a tool for applying physical force wherever necessary in order to achieve the nation's objectives. It's not a laboratory for social experimentation, it's not a jobs program, and it's not an educational system. Whether it does some of those things is incidental to its primary purpose. Every decision we make for the military, whether it's VA benefits or recruiting methods or compulsory service or pay rates or anything else, should be made on a basis of what provides the most effective and efficient fighting force.
I would set aside the questions of what is "fair" or "ethical" as relatively unimportant. What is important is the question of whether the current benefits system is the best way of recruiting and retaining the fighting force we need. I haven't seen any discussion in this thread from that point of view, and I'd be very interested in learning everyone's thoughts.
Personally, in regard to a draft, I think compulsory service would get us lots of personnel who are unwilling, unqualified, and don't want to become qualified, resulting in us spending excessive resources to get a less capable force.
Ed Haywood
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Ok, let me rephrase. "The overwhelming majority of experienced military professionals oppose reinstating a draft because they understand the significant qualitative differences between units composed of volunteers and draftees."
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Velocity173
That’s exactly what I’ve been saying all along. I get it, award money for disabilities that make the person unemployable but minor things, provide free treatment for them. Guarantee the number of claims will be reduced by 75 % and a huge reduction to the tax payer. Well, VA will still request money for their bloated budget to have $10,000 sculptures and paintings in their waiting rooms.
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Velocity173
Exactly. I saw enough guys who volunteered and did a half *** job. I can only imagine working next to someone who was forced to serve.
In the second world war we were attacked. the free world was at stake. other military misadventures have been in pursuit of who know what. stopping communism. attacking terrorists. clueless politicians risk our blood and national treasure on profoundly wasteful fiascos. volunteers signed up in 1941 our of patriotic fervor.
Ed Haywood
En-Route
That's where we disagree. I think the majority of admin, non-operational claims are unjustified and those doing it should be ashamed of themselves. The government has created a grab bag of free money and everything thinks of it as a benefit they are somehow entitled to, rather than compensation for real injury. Meanwhile we have charities raising money to help those truly disabled, because the funding to take care of them is being paid to people for BS claims.
tsts4
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Alrightee then. My neck, right shoulder and knees will just have to agree to disagree with you.
bluerooster
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shorty
Apparently you are not an old person. Not saying the OP is. But much of what had been listed is very much like an old person affliction.
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3G
There’s many countries that have compulsory national service; not everyone has to do military.
The real question that has to be answered is whether or not you want to pay the taxes necessary to support programs of that scale, and that’s out of scope for this board.
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Piperonca
I served with a bunch of draftees in a combat zone. For some it worked out, some it didn’t. The ones that didn’t consumed an inordinate amount of time and energy from their leaders. It was also abundantly clear that anybody who got married with kids or went to college was exempt (going by examples from my local draft board back in the day). There was a palpable sense of unfairness to it all. I’m not against the concept of national service in some manner, although that would probably involve political agreements beyond the ability of our society today. Plus you would want to split out and reward all those willing and able to become war fighters, and give the other ones roads to build, clinics to serve, etc. And no exemptions, particularly for politicians and their families.
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Piperonca
I blew out a disc doing situps on the last PT test I ever had in military service. Never put in a claim because I would have been embarrassed.