Im looking at buying my first plane and was set on a archer or cherokee 180. I was shopping around and seems like the arrows go for less money than a decent cherokee or archer. Im looking for a plane with around 1000 pound useful load and around $100,000 with a mid-time engine. Not really concerned too much about speed but the faster the better. Id like one IFR rated i dont need full glass panel but would like some decent avionics. Is this possible for around $100,000. It seems like you can get more plane for less money with the Arrow than the archer or Cherokee. How much more would the annual be on the arrow vs the archer on average. I know insurance would be quit a bit more on the arrow as well. A Tiger would be perfect but looks like the run in the $130000+ range. I was also checking out the Cherokee 235. You guys have way more experience so I figured id get some advice from you guys or if you had any other recommendations on different planes. I rent a 172 now but its getting to were its all booked up and can never fly so id figure id look into purchasing one for myself.
First plane? Archer, Arrow, etc. any recommendations
- Thread starter Bobby05
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Insurance will be the kicker on an Arrow and maintenance will be higher, that’s why they’re cheaper. I would go for an Archer, they’re great airplanes!
Don't overlook Beech B23s and C23s. Performance is about the same as a Cherokee 180 but they usually sell for less, are roomier, and have no onerous ADs.
I love the Tigers but, as you've seen, they're pricey. You might look around for a Cheetah or a Traveler.
Be sure you know whether the wing spar AD will apply to any Pipers you look at.
I love the Tigers but, as you've seen, they're pricey. You might look around for a Cheetah or a Traveler.
Be sure you know whether the wing spar AD will apply to any Pipers you look at.
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The Little Arrow That Could
Arrow checks all those boxes.
For 100k I think it's reasonable to get an Arrow with a mid-ish time engine, a 430 GPS (or newer if you're lucky), and G5 or two. If you want more glass or a fancy new modern AP you'll probably be spending a bit more. But 100k can get you a decent arrow.
You pickup some knots over the fixed gear PA28s and dollar for dollar I think you get more.
Your insurance bill will be more expensive for the first year or two, but if you fly a lot it comes down quickly. Mine is down nearly 50% since I bought it in 2020 with ink still wet on my PPL.
As with any aircraft - just be sure you get a thorough prebuy and know what you're buying.
Edit: the annual cost for retractable is not that much more. The real cost of owning a retract is if you forget to put the gear down on landing.
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Eric Pauley
Pre-takeoff checklist
I'll concur that the retract itself hasn't caused that much additional expense. Annuals/insurance are a bit more but so far (fingers crossed) I haven't had any crazy expensive maintenance items on the gear.
I also appreciate the efficiency of the Arrow. The constant-speed propeller and fuel injection really lets you dial in the power settings in cruise. This past weekend I flew at 10.5k density altitude, 130kts true on 8gph (measured with an accurate fuel totalizer). That combined with the 72gal usable on the Arrow III/IV gives you a lot of flexibility in your flight planning. Or fill the tanks to 50gal, treat it like an Arrow II, and get extra payload.
About how much is your average annual and insurance on the arrow? I like the archer but seems every decent one out there is $130,000 or more unless its right at TBO. I guess its more desirable for flight training and cheaper insurance/mx which drives the price up.
Eric Pauley
Pre-takeoff checklist
I just had my fourth renewal, and prices have definitely changed as I built time.
My first year (2021) I had 109TT, 0 in type. Cost was $2900 on a 90k insured value.
Now I have 300TT, 200 in type, and paid $2500 on 160k hull value (put in a lot of avionics).
So just like ArrowFlyer86 I had roughly a 50% reduction in a % of hull value basis. As always the best way to find out is to quote for yourself. I got insurance quotes on prospective N#s before signing anything.
JScarry
Pre-takeoff checklist
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My brother has a 1977 Turbo Arrow and I was curious about whether the gear required any extra maintenance. Looking through the books I found one replacement of downlocks, something about the emergency gear extender R&R, replacement of the nose gear door rod ends. replacement of nose gear limit switch, adjustment of nose gear limit switch, and lots of tire replacements.
He’s owned it since 2017 and we haven’t replaced any tires or had any problems with the gear.
It does take an extra quarter-hour or so to swing the gear during the annual. I agree with ArrowFlyer that the additional cost of maintenance for the Arrow is minimal.
He’s owned it since 2017 and we haven’t replaced any tires or had any problems with the gear.
It does take an extra quarter-hour or so to swing the gear during the annual. I agree with ArrowFlyer that the additional cost of maintenance for the Arrow is minimal.
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Insurance my first year when I had 56h and 1 complex hour. Like 3700ish on a 75k hull.
Now, at 660h TT and 600 in type it's about 2100.
Annuals vary. Mine are a bad point of reference because I do a lot of optional stuff. The first year will be brutal probably, same with any plane. After that I think 4-7k is reasonable for annual. But like any model you buy, you gotta be ready to throw down a check that breaks that budget heuristic whenever something goes TU.
2-Bit Speed
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2-Bit Speed
I cannot express how tempted I was to reply to Arrow or Archer with Trebuchet...
Rgbeard
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The retractable gear has a negligible impact on your maintenance costs unless you have a hydraulic power pack fail.
I really like the Arrow, lots of great things about it.
First the 30’ wingspan gives me extra room in my hangar.
Second the fuel consumption is awesome, you can lean it and fly high and slower at 6-7gph, and faster than a 172 which is burning 10gph. But it’s also nice to fly at 130-135kts and with tailwinds I can usually get closer to 140-150kts GS on 9gph.
The annual is more expensive, let’s say 1000 more per year. The insurance is more expensive, maybe 1000 more per year the first year compared to a fixed gear. But after a couple years I’m now paying something like $1500/year for insurance. And I enjoy flying a complex airplane with retractable gear. I think I’ve developed good habits on flying remembering the prop and gear on final.
After flying her for awhile, and seeing the speed of Cirrus, I guess I wish I had something that would fly closer to 200kts. I guess I wonder if those who have Bonanzas and Mooneys want something faster or not too or if they are happy with their 150kts.
You can probably find a pretty basic Arrow for closer to 80k-100k range. You might have an extra 20k in the bank going this route.
First the 30’ wingspan gives me extra room in my hangar.
Second the fuel consumption is awesome, you can lean it and fly high and slower at 6-7gph, and faster than a 172 which is burning 10gph. But it’s also nice to fly at 130-135kts and with tailwinds I can usually get closer to 140-150kts GS on 9gph.
The annual is more expensive, let’s say 1000 more per year. The insurance is more expensive, maybe 1000 more per year the first year compared to a fixed gear. But after a couple years I’m now paying something like $1500/year for insurance. And I enjoy flying a complex airplane with retractable gear. I think I’ve developed good habits on flying remembering the prop and gear on final.
After flying her for awhile, and seeing the speed of Cirrus, I guess I wish I had something that would fly closer to 200kts. I guess I wonder if those who have Bonanzas and Mooneys want something faster or not too or if they are happy with their 150kts.
You can probably find a pretty basic Arrow for closer to 80k-100k range. You might have an extra 20k in the bank going this route.
MooneyDriver78
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I don’t want to brag (I’m kidding, sure I do
), but not only can a Mooney do 150+ kts, but it will do it on 8.5 gph without tailwinds.But it’s wingspan is 37’, so no extra room and is a tight fit for some hangars.
I don’t desire more speed because I can travel a 1000 miles in 8 hours, yeah it would be nice to go TBM speed but I can’t afford the fuel costs let alone the airplane.
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I loved my Arrow. It was the 180hp, Hershey bar, original version. I flight planned 130 KTAS on 9-10 gph in the sweet spot altitudes of ~8,000 MSL. I flew it about 400 hours to destinations up to 1,000 miles away before I finished my RV-14 and sold the Arrow to a friend, who has flown it even farther than I did. The Arrow has advantages over the RV-14, including being easier to load a dog into. Its comfortable range for a single leg was around 500 nm. My ownership experience was really good. The main things I ran into were a prop blade seal that required a prop overhaul, a failed alternator, a failed vacuum pump (plus the overhauled replacement died on its test flight, the lesson being to just get a new one), a gear strut seal, one battery, and a total of three tire tubes (of which one leaked promptly after it was installed in a hurry by the night mechanic away from home). I never had a problem related to the retractable gear.
The Arrow is a good plane to help you understand your flying mission. They are generally easy to buy, fly, keep, and maintain. They are fast and comfortable enough for long trips. And after a few years with one, your logbook will make it pretty clear what your next plane should be. The same is true of an Archer, Mooney, 182, and a few other popular types.
The Arrow is a good plane to help you understand your flying mission. They are generally easy to buy, fly, keep, and maintain. They are fast and comfortable enough for long trips. And after a few years with one, your logbook will make it pretty clear what your next plane should be. The same is true of an Archer, Mooney, 182, and a few other popular types.
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Hang 4
Interesting seeing Arrow TAS. I have an Archer 1 (Hershey bar wing). I true out at about 120kts, @ 8GPH when 8K MSL or higher. So not a lot slower. OP mentioned this as a first plane, in today's insurance mkt starting with a retract might have bigger $$ than those who started several years ago.
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Domenick
What's your mission? Impressing co-eds? Hauling a family to grandma's every month? Solo traipsing about the country?
It matters.
kujo806
Pre-takeoff checklist
Loved my arrow. It was 1975 Hershey bar wing. Solid honest 135knt plane easy to fly and maintain. Like what’s been said, insurance and annual will be 1000 more than an archer, but you build complex time! The arrow is nice and steady during instrument approaches too.
Rcmutz
Cleared for Takeoff
Wow! 4-7K for an annual. I’m at $1000 for the basic annual inspection. If any other work then more, but I have never had more than $2100, and that additional was for some cowl metal work.
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Base annual inspection price at shops near me is about $2500-3000. Pretty hard to get out the door for less than $4k if anything needs repair/replacement.
Tom J
Pre-Flight
I just bought an Arrow IV, I have 33 hours in PA28R's, 68 complex total, and my instrument airplane certificate. My insurance with Assured Partners is $1732 for the first year.
As far as the annuals go I have my A&P/IA, so handle my own. That said the shop I work for has a flat rate of 24 hours for an Arrow, and a fixed gear PA28 is 18. About $675 less for fixed gear/fixed prop, in central VA.
As far as the annuals go I have my A&P/IA, so handle my own. That said the shop I work for has a flat rate of 24 hours for an Arrow, and a fixed gear PA28 is 18. About $675 less for fixed gear/fixed prop, in central VA.
MajorTurbulence
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In my area, the basic annual is about $2100. But when you add the discrepancies and other preventatives, practically it is more than double or triple. Not surprisingly, our airplanes are aging and those add ones will tend to be a bigger factor. I considered myself fortunate this past annual only paying $5300 total with the biggest purchase being a new battery. Lately though,$6300-7300 for my PA28-181.
If you are thinking along those lines you should add older Mooneys to your list of possible airplanes. I have a '64 M20E super 21. It is very similar inside to a Cherokee 140 but has manually retractable gear, external top loading baggage door, and a faster wing profile. With the IO-360 it runs LOP well and I cruise 140kts TAS at 8 GPH, but it is rated 150 at 10 ROP. It is a bit of a tight fit, but it's useful load is 943 and with 52 gallons of fuel the payload is 631 lbs. With 40 gallons the payload is 703. That is plenty for 400NM with more than 1 hour reserve.
N1120A
Pattern Altitude
If I'm the OP, and going to fly anywhere beyond about 150nm trips, I'd seriously consider the Arrow. Fixed gear Cherokees are often more expensive because they are wanted as trainers, and Arrows can get you places noticeably faster and for cheaper per trip. That pays for the little bit extra insurance, which will go down every year. It's a much more stable IFR platform that goes exactly where you point it - super easy to hand fly and most have some sort of autopilot to take the load off as well, even if you don't have a good one like a GFC.
Honestly, fuel costs might be the cheapest thing about a TBM. 57-60 gph for 310 knots or dialed back to 260 knots at like 37 gph is pretty freaking efficient, especially for airline replacement. Remember that contract jet fuel is dirt cheap compared to 100LL. The rest, oh yeah.
120 at 8 in a Cherokee 180 or Archer sounds pretty optimal, or even like the airplane is special. The book on the Archer says 125 at 11, though I've never seen anywhere near that in probably 150 hours between Archers and 180s.
I have seen 130 at 9.9 in an Arrow. Fuel injection and retract makes a difference.
Of course, I do 140 at 10.5 in a Tiger, so...
I don’t want to brag (I’m kidding, sure I do), but not only can a Mooney do 150+ kts, but it will do it on 8.5 gph without tailwinds.
But it’s wingspan is 37’, so no extra room and is a tight fit for some hangars.
I don’t desire more speed because I can travel a 1000 miles in 8 hours, yeah it would be nice to go TBM speed but I can’t afford the fuel costs let alone the airplane.
Honestly, fuel costs might be the cheapest thing about a TBM. 57-60 gph for 310 knots or dialed back to 260 knots at like 37 gph is pretty freaking efficient, especially for airline replacement. Remember that contract jet fuel is dirt cheap compared to 100LL. The rest, oh yeah.
120 at 8 in a Cherokee 180 or Archer sounds pretty optimal, or even like the airplane is special. The book on the Archer says 125 at 11, though I've never seen anywhere near that in probably 150 hours between Archers and 180s.
I have seen 130 at 9.9 in an Arrow. Fuel injection and retract makes a difference.
Of course, I do 140 at 10.5 in a Tiger, so...
Meh, not really. Arrows have about 10kts on an Archer. That’s only going to make a couple minutes difference in flight times door to door. Arrows have higher insurance premiums (fact) than an Archer and the added labor in maintenance is going to outweigh any potential savings.
Partially, the reason Arrows are less expensive is due to insurance by and large.
The Archer is 120ktas and that’s backed up from about 800hrs of flying one. The Arrow is right around 130ktas give or take a couple knots depending on model. Both are going to be right around the same fuel consumption, with the Arrow being a half-gallon or so more with the higher compression pistons on the angle valve 360.
I have a 1980 Archer II, at 8K WOT I get about 125 kts TAS on about 10.5 gph. Pull it back to 65% and I see about 116 TAS on 8.5 gph. That's using instruments I've checked against a 3-leg groundspeed GPS run.
Between the larger wheel pants and the cruise prop that I think started being used in 1978 (I think), later model years are significantly faster than some of the earlier model year Archer IIs (like 1976-77).
Very happy with my choice, it's dirt-simple airplane and doesn't lose too much to a lot of Arrows out there.
Between the larger wheel pants and the cruise prop that I think started being used in 1978 (I think), later model years are significantly faster than some of the earlier model year Archer IIs (like 1976-77).
Very happy with my choice, it's dirt-simple airplane and doesn't lose too much to a lot of Arrows out there.
I owned an arrow for many years like any plane the maintenance isn’t bad if you stay on it. The gear power pack is rather expensive. I liked the arrow and enjoyed flying it. Now that I’m older I would be looking to a Cherokee #235. The insurance companies don’t like old pilot in Retacs.
I just bought a 1972 Arrow last year on an ink still wet PPL. Came with a 300hr reman engine done in 2019, dual G5s, Avidyne 540, new audio panel and transponder, ADSB in/out. $150K out the door. The only "upgrade" I have decided to do since was a GFC 500. I can't imagine it needing anything else. My mission is typically mid-length x-country weekend flights and the Arrow fits the bill perfectly. First year insurance was $4300 with 56 hours TT, zero type, zero complex, $150K hull. Insurance required 15 hours dual + complex rating transition training. My renewal was $3100 at 130TT a few months back. Insurance was probably $1000 cheaper on the initial for Cherokees and 172s that I also looked at.
First annual in April was $3,300 which included a $800 LED beacon and a couple of other fixes for my new to me bird.
Cruise at 155ish (MPH) TAS at 8000MSL and 9GPH (JPI says that's 60-65% power). When I first bought her, I regretted going with the Arrow II because of the 48 gals of fuel, but that gets me over 4 hours and I frankly don't want to sit in the seat for that long and typically stop around 3.5 hours max anyway, so zero regrets for me. Carrying less fuel also helps useful load. Even with full tanks I still have a little over 800lbs useful load.
My only con when looking, for the Cherokees and Archers (and 172s), was so many seemed to live part of their life in a flight school. Arrows rarely do because of the retract/complex. The wing spar AD is going to be an issue with most flight school planes because of the way factored service hours are calculated. Make sure your prebuy checks the rudder pedals for SB1242A. That one bit me to tune of a few AMUs.
I'm based near Chicago and in one year we've been to Rhode Island, Kentucky, South Dakota, around Lake Michigan, Kansas City and a bunch of $100 burgers in the 1-2 hour range of home.
First annual in April was $3,300 which included a $800 LED beacon and a couple of other fixes for my new to me bird.
Cruise at 155ish (MPH) TAS at 8000MSL and 9GPH (JPI says that's 60-65% power). When I first bought her, I regretted going with the Arrow II because of the 48 gals of fuel, but that gets me over 4 hours and I frankly don't want to sit in the seat for that long and typically stop around 3.5 hours max anyway, so zero regrets for me. Carrying less fuel also helps useful load. Even with full tanks I still have a little over 800lbs useful load.
My only con when looking, for the Cherokees and Archers (and 172s), was so many seemed to live part of their life in a flight school. Arrows rarely do because of the retract/complex. The wing spar AD is going to be an issue with most flight school planes because of the way factored service hours are calculated. Make sure your prebuy checks the rudder pedals for SB1242A. That one bit me to tune of a few AMUs.
I'm based near Chicago and in one year we've been to Rhode Island, Kentucky, South Dakota, around Lake Michigan, Kansas City and a bunch of $100 burgers in the 1-2 hour range of home.
MBDiagMan
Final Approach
$100,000 will buy a nice, short body Mooney which would bring many improvements over an Arrow. Examples are; steel safety cage around the cabin, more speed and efficiency, simplistic gear and flap mechanisms, incredible structural strength, laminar flow wing……
Archers are great first airplanes!
Before you get an Arrow, I'd look closely at Dakotas. Better speed and payload than an Archer and a roomy cabin, even in the back, without the added complexity of a retractable gear. Helps with maintenance and insurance.
- Martin
Before you get an Arrow, I'd look closely at Dakotas. Better speed and payload than an Archer and a roomy cabin, even in the back, without the added complexity of a retractable gear. Helps with maintenance and insurance.
- Martin
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Yeah - Dakotas are nice.
I think the tough part is finding one and fitting that in the OP's budget.
Given the OP's $100k price point, finding a Dakota that isn't trashed seems like a difficult challenge. There's relatively few for sale, and pretty much no decent ones for less than $150k.
I think your money goes a bit further with an Arrow - and the extra you spend on a Dakota will pay for many years of gear mx and the bigger premiums in your first couple years of flying.
Just my take!
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Hang 4
I believe the cabin in a Dakota is the same as an Archer. All the rest is correct. Basically a Dakota is an Archer with a 6 cylinder engine.
David Loftus
Pre-takeoff checklist
Diamond DA40. Easy to fly, safest GA plane ever produced. Anyone can work on its ubiquitous IO360. Capable of 150ktas, I usually run it at 135kts at 8gph. My insurance is only $1200 on a $250K hull value.
texasclouds
En-Route
Cessna 195. Moderators, please lock down this thread now that the ultimate aircraft has been suggested.
Rcmutz
Cleared for Takeoff
Guess I should have clarified… that is for my 135KT true airspeed Grumman Tiger.
flyingcheesehead
Touchdown! Greaser!
The Cherokee/Warrior/Archer planes, basically the sub-200hp fixed-gear PA28s, are in relatively high demand as trainers, so you can definitely get more bang for your purchase buck by going with something that isn't used as a trainer, like an Arrow.
However, the Arrow was designed as a complex trainer so you can do even better with something like a Mooney, Comanche, etc.
Annual will run you a few hundred bucks more to put it up on jacks and swing the gear. Insurance will cost more, especially if you're low time, low retract time, and/or not instrument rated. Buy it, fly the hell out of it, and once you have 100 hours in it go back and get cheaper insurance.
I have a Mooney M20R Ovation that goes about 170-175 KTAS on 10 gph. Sure, there are times I'd like to go faster, who wouldn't? But to go any faster VERY quickly gets very expensive. I recognize that I'm pretty much at the knee of the hockey stick when it comes to performance per dollar... And I think about that while I'm on a longer cross country wishing I could go faster and then I'm OK. It's nice to have a plane that is cheap enough to fly that I never really have to think about the cost of flying it.
This.
The newer ones (9xx series) will go as low as about 52gph at FL310... But you're going to be burning 90 gph near the ground during takeoff and climb, and a bare minimum of 35gph any time the prop is turning. It's a really nice airplane for the most part but cheap, it is not. $500/hr minimum, after spending seven figures to buy it.
Mooney still exists and still sells parts, they're just not making new airplanes.
Also, in 12 years of owning a Mooney, I have yet to replace an actual Mooney part. Lights (Whelen), Tires (usually Desser recaps), Engine parts (Continental), Gear pucks (Lord), Brakes (Rapco), Spark plugs (Tempest), fuel pump (Weldon), fuel hose (Parker), trim switch (Honeywell), speed brake overhaul (Precise Flight), etc... You get the picture. The plane itself seems to be pretty much bulletproof.
It's a fantastic airplane, but you're not gonna find one for the OP's $100K budget.
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Ari
The law of diminishing returns gets really expensive as you get closer to 200 knots. For a 500-mile flight, a 150-knot plane will take 3+20. Upgrading to 175 knots gets that down to 2+52, saving 28 minutes. To save the next 28 minutes, you need to get a 210-knot plane. The next 28 minutes require a 260-knot plane. Most people who are flying planes in the 150- to 175-knot range would love to go faster, but end up deciding that it's better to have enough money to play a round of golf when they get there rather than getting there marginally earlier.