Yuck - Hershy Bar Wings and Updrafts

teamcoltra

teamcoltra

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Rev. Travis
I went flying yesterday and luckily landed a couple hours before this windstorm happened but I certainly didn't enjoy my flight back...

Lots of wind blowing me all over the place and updrafts popping my wings up... I tried to remember the words of wisdom I learned on the forums "just smile it will make your brain be more comfortable" and "enjoy these moments because it's when you are actually flying"...

didn't help, I panicked and in a moment of weakness decided to practice my positive exchange of controls skills by asking the instructor to take the yoke for a second while I took a breather. He was cool with it, but when I later explained why I had to do it he suggested that next time I should really just ride it out. Later in that flight there was another really rough area and I asked him to keep a hand on the yoke so that I felt at least a little better.

The gusts were probably no more than 25kts (maybe a few 30-35kt). I know that my plane gets especially bumpy because it's a '68 PA28 with the hershey bar wings... but I feel that at 16 hours these things shouldn't be getting to me so much. I think back to how everything scared me when I first started, and how scary my first take off was, and landings, and even turning the plane on at first was... and how I can now fly the pattern with ease and my instructor just sits there and gives me only the smallest corrections to make me a better pilot.

But times like these make me wonder if I will ever be able to finish my training, and even if I do... there will always be ****ty weather. Am I going to freak out when there is a small wind storm and I don't have my instructor there next to me?

I don't want to quit, but I also feel like I don't have that Type-A confidence in myself that all these other pilots have that makes them feel impervious to all bad things.
 
I have almost 900 hours in the hershey bar and I still get "unsettled" at times. In fact there are times when I've landed at the nearest airport (or refused to take off) until the winds died down. Once on the Greeley-Front Range trip after breakfast (GXY-FTG but around DIA) I waited until the evening to fly home. Friends waited about 2 hours, winds still hadn't let up. What is usually 40-50 min trip was 20 min the winds were so wicked. Of course as they turned final for 26, ground speed was about 30 kts.

It's not TypeA personality, it's experience, practice and accepting the cherokee really wants to be stable and boring. Do not equate hours with anything else. Everyone has a different learning style, different comfort level.

A very experience pilot once suggested "dance on the pedals, don't react with the yoke". It helps.
 
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You think the PA28 is bad try doing all that in a Cessna. The heavier wing loading in the Piper actually makes it somewhat resistant to turbulence and shear.
 
Part of learning to fly is working through the fears most of us have as a land based animal. And the beauty of it is that your instructor is there to help guide you. And I would hazard a guess that, had you been on your own, you would have made it through. Consider that your instructor keeping his hand on the yoke did absolutely nothing for the safety of the flight.

I still remember the brief moment of terror I had on my first solo flight when it suddenly hit me that I was the only one around who could save my own life, as it were. I pushed the fear back and made three good landings.

Overcome and be proud.
 
I'm one of those pilots that doesn't like bumps and turbulence. But it is my understanding that you can build up a tolerance to the bumps and updrafts, both mentally and physically.

Heavier aircraft and higher wing loading reduce the impact of bumps, etc. The hershey bar wing isn't the problem.
 
I have boo coo hours in both tapered wing and Hershey bar Pipers. The Hershey bar wing is more resilient against turbulence and updrafts than the tapered wing, in my experience.
 
teamcoltra said:
...But times like these make me wonder if I will ever be able to finish my training, and even if I do... there will always be ****ty weather. Am I going to freak out when there is a small wind storm and I don't have my instructor there next to me? ....
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did my long solo xc about 10 days ago.....I got knocked around for 2.9 hours, non-stop (ok, maybe not while taxiing :) ). it took a lot of the fun out of the flight, at least at this stage in my training, but was a good experience specifically because you DON'T have your CFI in the plane. YOU need to fly that plane and make big boy pilot decisions (ie safe or not safe, crap your pants or not crap your pants, etc...).

but like you said, it's not fun and I honestly hope I don't have another flight like that anytime soon, but I guess it's bound to happen.
 
Bob Noel said:
I'm one of those pilots that doesn't like bumps and turbulence. But it is my understanding that you can build up a tolerance to the bumps and updrafts, both mentally and physically.

Heavier aircraft and higher wing loading reduce the impact of bumps, etc. The hershey bar wing isn't the problem.
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+1 All little planes get bumped around. It is the wing loading that can help, but at the end of the day, if you fly enough, you will get bumped around. I guess I am fortunate that it doesn't bother me, but I have had a few passengers that don't like it. There are sometimes ways to avoid it. Fly early, avoid mountains, try to get up higher, where heat from the ground doesn't affect you as much and if winds are over 20 kts, you will probably get some mechanical turbulence, like you did.
 
Sac Arrow said:
I have boo coo hours in both tapered wing and Hershey bar Pipers. The Hershey bar wing is more resilient against turbulence and updrafts than the tapered wing, in my experience.
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beaucoup.
 
don't give up because you don't like the turbulence.
You will get over it. Somewhere around the 50 hour mark, I started to relax and it bothered me less. I found looking out at the wing helps because you can see you are not really going up and down as much as you think. You hit a "bump" and your head moves opposite real quick and anything in close proximity like the console seems to jump a great deal. Look far out.

I HATED that stuff early on and well past my solo. No it doesn't bother me one bit. That does not mean I like it. I would prefer smooth weather all the time but I am no longer scared.

Only time I get a little rattled is on short final and get a good bump or two before getting into ground effect.

But really dont give up over something that you will eventually get used to.
 
Good info here from all the others. We get it bad in my area. Throttle back to the bottom of the green arc helps some. It doesn't bother me anymore, but does bug me when I have PAX and I know they're not comfortable.
 
Get some glider time you will learn to love the bumps. Bumps are god's gift of free flight time.
 
It's a hard lesson to believe but it'll fly smoother if you stop trying to fix it.
Let up on the yoke a little and the let plane find level. Even Hershey bar wings have dihedral to keep it stabile.

Every time I get some dual when I'm getting back flying in the Spring the turbulence is always bad for the first few hours. It's me.
 
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The Piper flight school where I cut my CFI teeth had both Hershey bar and (later) tapered wings, and when it was time for a lesson we took the plane that was available. Don't recall anyone freaking out when we switched from Hershey bar to tapered...it still says PA-28 in their logbooks.

Bob Gardner
 
So guys the key with turbulence is to pretty much stay with the pedals, don't freak out on the yoke, and understand that it won't kill you?
 
steingar said:
You think the PA28 is bad try doing all that in a Cessna. The heavier wing loading in the Piper actually makes it somewhat resistant to turbulence and shear.
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You think the Cessna is bad try doing all that in a Allegro.
Hang in there you'll be fine.
 
LJS1993 said:
So guys the key with turbulence is to pretty much stay with the pedals, don't freak out on the yoke, and understand that it won't kill you?
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Yeah. The plane was designed to know how to stay flying better than you do.
 
I'm not intending to dogpile on but I do have a question:

Are you training to be a recreational pilot or a vocational pilot?

Reason I ask: If you don't like it as a recreational pilot, just land and go do something you like better that day. No one will force you to fly in conditions you don't like. We might gently suggest that light aircraft always bounce around a bit, the sky isn't static on many days or we wouldn't have weather, but ultimately you control your day. Just land. If it isn't fun, why are you doing it?

Now if vocational: You better get used to it. It isn't going to get better and most pros have at least one "damn that day kicked my ass" turbulence story. Usually far more than one if they do any mountain work.
 
At least half the pilots I know won't fly in the wind . If you are good with limiting yourself then no problem.and as far has handling it when alone, you will....you won't have a choice. But I GURANTEE you will hear your instructors voice in your head and you will get through it.
 
Don't blame the airplane. :no:

Turbulance is caused from uneven heating of the earth, converging weather fronts, or mechanically from terrain or buildings.

Fly higher and fly early or in the late afternoon / evening.

Most students don't have a choice, I get that, but please don't blame the plane. :mad2:
 
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Got my ppl in a Cherokee with Hershey bar wings ,never felt uncomfortable with the airplane . I also had a beech travel air with thicker wings and enjoyed it . I have flown some lsa aircraft and my own liberty which is a few hundred pounds mgw above an lsa ,after a few bumps you get used to it just have to pay a little more attention to your flying.
 
If it gets too bumpy, just let out a good Yeeeee Haaaaaaa.

Cures everything.
 
Geico266 said:
Don't blame the airplane. :no:
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Sorry that it looks like I am, I was reading and told by my instructor that the hershey bar wings make it more susceptible to updrafts because of the better lift vs the tapered wing. I love my plane, and love it's lift capabilities and it's amazing. I just dislike the updrafts, which are apparently made worse because of my planes awesome flight characteristics. :)
 
teamcoltra said:
Sorry that it looks like I am, I was reading and told by my instructor that the hershey bar wings make it more susceptible to updrafts because of the better lift vs the tapered wing. I love my plane, and love it's lift capabilities and it's amazing. I just dislike the updrafts, which are apparently made worse because of my planes awesome flight characteristics. :)
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hmmmm, I don't believe that is true. Do you have a reference for that?
 
teamcoltra said:
Sorry that it looks like I am, I was reading and told by my instructor that the hershey bar wings make it more susceptible to updrafts because of the better lift vs the tapered wing. I love my plane, and love it's lift capabilities and it's amazing. I just dislike the updrafts, which are apparently made worse because of my planes awesome flight characteristics. :)
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That doesn't make logical sense (and it isn't true.) Regardless, with either wing (any wing) the key to managing updrafts on landing is to nail your airspeeds.
 
teamcoltra said:
Sorry that it looks like I am, I was reading and told by my instructor that the hershey bar wings make it more susceptible to updrafts because of the better lift vs the tapered wing. :)
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The blind leading the blind.

blind-leading-the-blind_400.jpg
 
I feel kinda off put thinking that my thread sounds like a troll -- as a person with limited knowledge I can only go off of what I hear from others. I think in a "Pilot Training" thread we should assume ignorance over malcontent.

In my flight instructors defence, I could have misunderstood him. It made sense in my mind since the other piper that is flown in my flight school has a lower weight capacity so my brain said "oh my wing can generate more lift so I can carry more weight". Maybe this is what he said and he was wrong, maybe I misunderstood him...

I just hate feeling so scared flying, I am just more hoping that it passes soon. I am sure it will, I was just looking for some encouraging words which I (for the most part) found.
 
teamcoltra said:
I just hate feeling so scared flying, I am just more hoping that it passes soon. I am sure it will, I was just looking for some encouraging words which I (for the most part) found.
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The more you fly, the more comfortable you can feel.

The more you understand the conditions and why the conditions occur, the more comfortable you can feel.

Repeated experiences can provide "comfort" - you can learn what to expect and realize that it's not so bad.

And, to be blunt, not everyone likes to fly in crappy weather. I'm one of them. I can do it, but avoid it.
 
teamcoltra said:
Sorry that it looks like I am, I was reading and told by my instructor that the hershey bar wings make it more susceptible to updrafts because of the better lift vs the tapered wing. I love my plane, and love it's lift capabilities and it's amazing. I just dislike the updrafts, which are apparently made worse because of my planes awesome flight characteristics. :)
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Heh. It should be the other way 'round. I learned at first flight that Hershey Bar wings "roll like a fat dog" so that means they're less susceptible to rolling.

Think about it. If you need more aileron to bank, how can they be easier to bank in rough air?
 
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Travis: Maybe some perspective is in order, and I don't meant that in a derogatory way. You're doing something (flying) that an utterly minuscule portion of the world population could ever even dream about. Consider how incredibly privileged we are to take this opportunity by the horns and experience flight above the earth.

Now grab your instructor, go up on the windiest day he/she is comfortable with, and push through your land-based fears until you're reasonably comfortable with the updrafts. You don't have to love it, but you do need practice it until rational thoughts mostly overcome irrational fears.

Let us know when your checkride is scheduled. :)
 
tmyers said:
If it gets too bumpy, just let out a good Yeeeee Haaaaaaa.

Cures everything.
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I DID that when I was a student. I started in a 152. Those things like to blow around. A PA28 or 172 isn't even close.

I find light turbulence to be rather fun. Not so for moderate....

My instructor really didn't like it.
 
Since 1954, when I first flew in a light aircraft, to today with about 4000 hours of non commercial time, I have never enjoyed being thrown around in a light airplane. Hitting my head hard on the overhead is not enjoyable to me, being in a lot of turbulence in a rented airplane that's 40 -50 years old and god only knows what bad treatment it's received in the past, corrosion, etc. (I also never enjoyed being bounced around in a car. )I always flew for enjoyment so I flew mainly in good weather and was only caught in bad circumstances a few times as I always watched the weather very carefully and respected it. I had a lot of fun flying and never had an accident. ( I also never flew single engine at night as I was not good at landing in the dark with an engine out.)
 
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