Your Thoughts

R

raiders

Filing Flight Plan
Joined
Aug 2, 2011
Messages
6
Display Name
Display name:
Raiders
Hey guys,

I would like to get your thoughts on a recent incident I had.
Airplane in question - late 1970's PA-28 with a 160hp engine (1700 SMOH).
We were flying out of an airport last week where the density altitude was about 5500 ft and the TOW was about 200 below the MTOW. W & B was well within limits.

During the takeoff roll (and after having leaned the aircraft during the run-up) I felt that the airplane is a bit under powered and that the engine is sounding rough.

During the climb-out we experienced frequent RPM drops of about 100-150 RPM's and again, roughness from the engine (I have about 10-12 hours on this specific airplane in the last 3 week so I am well familiar with how the engine sounds during normal flight). Having deemed the airplane incapable of continuing the flight safely, I made a decision to return to the departure airport about 15 minutes after the departure.

We had maintenance done on the airplane that same day and the A&P found nothing wrong with the plane. After receiving an ear full from the flight school for not completing the flight, we got up the following morning and headed back to the airport for another attempt.

The second time, density altitude was about 3200 ft and the TOW again well below MTOW. During the climb-out I felt again that the engine is running a little rough, but the performance was better thanks to the lower density altitude. We made it safely to 10,500 ft, our cruising altitude (where the density altitude was about 13,000 ft enroute).

I had selected a route of flight which took us over airports, which later turned out to be a smart move. During cruise, I again felt that the engine was running rough and making unusual noises.

About an hour and a half into the flight at 10,500 ft, we experienced an engine out. The power failure was immediate, but luckily we were about 10 nm from an airport. We established best glide and began troubleshooting the problem. Nothing seemed to make a difference. We went over the emergency checklist, again no difference. At about 6000 ft (a few minutes into the glide) the engine fired back up after playing with the power setting. Not wanting to take any more risks, we kept the engine pretty much on idle the entire way down and continued with the landing.

A few days later, the flight school went to pick up the airplane. They brought a maintenance guy who deemed the airplane completely airworthy and flew it back home. I, of course, again received an ear full for not being a good enough pilot to determine that high density altitude was the cause of our problems. I am not entirely sure how density altitude could be the cause of this, especially an hour and a half into the cruise and after having switched the tanks every 30 minutes.

Any intake on this would be greatly appreciated - thanks!
 
were you running full rich the whole time?
 
nope - the airplane was properly leaned the entire flight.
i of course pay very close attention to the engine every flight, but having suspected engine trouble, i was EXTRA aware - mixture was properly leaned, fuel flow was normal (edp was working), tanks were properly switched, we had sufficient fuel, no carb ice was present, power was on an appropriate setting etc.
 
steingar said:
I think you should stop renting from those guys.
Click to expand...

I happen to agree here. No one should question your authority as Pilot in Command in a matter of Safety, expecially when their butts aren't on the line.
 
i agree 100%, but i still wanted you guys' opinion on what actually happened / what you think i should have done differently..
 
Yeah, nicely done with the response. I think the mechanics are doing a very poor job, and didn't do enough to inspect the engine. An engine in proper working order doesn't experience frequent RPM drops or cut out for no reason. There was indeed something wrong with it, and the mechanic didn't have the wherewithal to figure out what.

You should go back to whoever gave you grief at the flight school, and let them have it with both barrels and then some. It is in no way any of their beeswax what decisions you make as PIC. Such second guessing is counterproductive to safety, and should not be tolerated. You really should do this, as if you don't, and the same thing happens to someone with less on the ball than you, they could get hurt. If the person/people at the flight school don't give you a pretty heartfelt apology for their behavior, you should probably report this to your local FSDO. Someone needs to reign these guys in before someone gets killed. Your situation is why we have all this regulatory crap we all complain about. Let it do some good.

And don't rent there any more. You got lucky, the engine quit at altitude. It could have done so on takeoff, too low to turn around. People get hurt and dead in situations like that.
 
what did they do differently than you which allowed them to successfully fly the plane home after it died on you?
 
Could be an insidious problem like a clogged fuel filter, or an inop or ineffective fuel pump. (I'm assuming you have a manually operated electric fuel pump - was it on when you experienced roughness and had an engine failure?)
 
Sac Arrow said:
Could be an insidious problem like a clogged fuel filter, or an inop or ineffective fuel pump. (I'm assuming you have a manually operated electric fuel pump - was it on when you experienced roughness and had an engine failure?)
Click to expand...

Vapor lock?
 
Reminds me about one guy who unfortunately killed himself during the landing; equally mysterious slight roughness and infrequent, sudden, inexplicable cutoffs. NTSB tore down the engine and found an extra metering needle rolling around the carburator bowl. Most likely it was there since the engine was built.
 
hey,

i have no idea how they flew it back home. probably just like i flew the plane for an hour and a half before the engine failure (home is about 30 minutes from where the engine out was).

i wasn't using the electric pump at cruise, just the engine driven one. turning the pump on was one of the first things i did when the engine cut, so that wasn't the immediate cause.

also, the engine roughness was experienced regardless of whether the electric pump was on or off..
 
Weird, but it does sound like a fuel problem to me. We need Tom D. to chime in.
 
As a CYA move, I would review your leaning technique and verify that it was correct.

Sounds like a carb or other fuel problem though. Did you pull carb heat? (Not that I think that was it) Worse or better?
 
I wouldn't rent from them again. You handled the situation as you saw it. The airplane was not operating correctly. None of the symptoms you described sounded acceptable to me. Then they give you grief? Shake the dust of their FBO off your shoes and don't go back. You did well.
 
Take the FBO's mechanic up on a similar hot day to reach those hight density altitudes. When the engine dies, say "your airplane", sit back & enjoy.

+100 on business elsewhere. You GOTTA have faith in the equipment you put your life into.
 
I'd suggest either magnetos not liking the altitude... or that the mixture wasn't leaning the way it should, even though you may have been moving the control - did you observe an EGT rise?

Engines need fuel, air, and fire. Barring a blown cylinder, the problem should be in one of those factors:

Fuel - insufficient fuel pressure at altitude due to vapor lock or pump failure.
Air - improper fuel/air ratio due to clogged air intake or problem with carburetor/mixture system
Fire - problem with plugs (could be fouling caused by air problem) or magnetos. Based on the fact that you had a total failure I'd suspect the mags.

I've had mags that worked just fine during the ground runup but operations at altitude on one mag were atrocious. The same issue could affect both mags.

Good job on handling the engine problem.
 
raiders said:
nope - the airplane was properly leaned the entire flight.
i of course pay very close attention to the engine every flight, but having suspected engine trouble, i was EXTRA aware - mixture was properly leaned, fuel flow was normal (edp was working), tanks were properly switched, we had sufficient fuel, no carb ice was present, power was on an appropriate setting etc.
Click to expand...

Describe your technique for "properly lean", because it sounds like you may be too lean.
 
I fly a PA 28/161, I one time had a problem in some extreme heat at Thermal, CA. My engine was running fine, but sounded like crap. I later found out that when magnetos are subjected to hot dry air, they sometimes can make things sound not so good.

Other than that, I've never had a problem with DA, but then, I always check the POH to make sure I'm in limits before take off. I once had to wait until early evening to make my getaway from Big Bear due to DA.

John
 
A complete engine failure -- as in NOTHING -- at altitude has to be a fuel/air issue. Although magnetos are altitude sensitive, I've never heard of BOTH magnetos failing in cruise flight. Not to say it's impossible, but the odds seem pretty slim.

The power recovery at a lower altitude seems to point toward a too-lean condition, but why the engine failure would happen all-the-sudden while in cruise is the $64K question.

I would definitely question the FBO's maintenance, although this is a pretty bizarre situation that might confound the best A&P.
 
thank you for all your responses.
this, of course, wasn't the end of it.

now, the flight school is not only making me pay for the maintenance done on the airplane when i selected to return back to the point of departure, but they are also charging me for the flight hours the A&P flew the airplane back home from the airport at which we did the emergency landing.

they are claiming that nothing is wrong with the airplane, and therefore all these charges are mine to pay.

what are your thoughts on that? is this standard?
 
is FSDO the right channel? not some sort of legal channel?
 
raiders said:
thank you for all your responses.
this, of course, wasn't the end of it.

now, the flight school is not only making me pay for the maintenance done on the airplane when i selected to return back to the point of departure, but they are also charging me for the flight hours the A&P flew the airplane back home from the airport at which we did the emergency landing.

they are claiming that nothing is wrong with the airplane, and therefore all these charges are mine to pay.

what are your thoughts on that? is this standard?
Click to expand...

If the issue was one of improper operations, then the bill is yours to pay. If no one else is having trouble, then your technique is the problem.
 
I strongly doubt anything is wrong with my technique. I am current and have many hours on this specific plane without any issues.
That being said, two A&Ps deemed the plane in workin order, but this is not something that can be proved black or white obviously.
There could be something wrong with the engine that will only come up 200 hours from now..
 
Review the rental agreement, you know the written one. Regardless of the outcome, I wouldn't rent there anymore.
 
You did the right thing, this might be a "pay the fee and walk" type of deal for you. Im betting the FBO has paperwork saying you have to pay, since no problem was found.

Prove to yourself that its not you. Take a CFI up and try to recreate the event, in the same plane. Have him observe, do your leaning technique, KNOW it wasn't you that caused the problem. There will then be NO DOUBT of your ability.

If your technique is bad (doubt it), its a learning opportunity. If your technique is good, you pay $100, but have confirmed your ability to the CFI and FBO, reinforcing that its probably the plane. (And have a better case to NOT pay the pick-up and A&P charge)
 
TripleZ said:
You did the right thing, this might be a "pay the fee and walk" type of deal for you. Im betting the FBO has paperwork saying you have to pay, since no problem was found.

Prove to yourself that its not you. Take a CFI up and try to recreate the event, in the same plane. Have him observe, do your leaning technique, KNOW it wasn't you that caused the problem. There will then be NO DOUBT of your ability.

If your technique is bad (doubt it), its a learning opportunity. If your technique is good, you pay $100, but have confirmed your ability to the CFI and FBO, reinforcing that its probably the plane. (And have a better case to NOT pay the pick-up and A&P charge)
Click to expand...

One of the advantages of owning your own aircraft....

or you could get to pay every thing every time.
 
I had an engine lose power on takeoff, dead stick back from apttern altitude.No problem found. Did not happen again for almost a year. Serious trouble shooting on all items.

A fuel injected Cessna with the "pull to drain" low fuel sump. Would not close properly. Closed fine to not show a leak or drip on the ramp, but with fuel flows, the shut off pin would pull back and allow air into the fuel line through the drain. Engine would roll back, fuel flows decrease and the pin would reseat.

Just one more thing to look at.

But if the chief instructor or flight school owner is "ripping a new one". Make sure your case is known to all, and leave. Talk to another local school first. Based on the schools reactions, you can rest assured that they will attempt to blackball you on the airport.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top