Your first solo IMC flight after passing checkride

[Bill]

Ah, that old post is still here:

https://www.pilotsofamerica.com/community/threads/finally-my-1st-actual.5567/

 

[jordane93]

Just my two cents ---- if you are uncomfortable flying in IMC without an autopilot, perhaps you shouldn't be engaging in instrument flying. Your proficiency is such that, given an autopilot malfunction, you have placed yourself into a situation where the most basic instrument flying skills (that is, enroute IMC) are too much to handle.

Flying in IMC for an extended period of time without an AP can be exhausting. I’ve denied a plane at work because of a deferred AP. It was our fourth leg of the day, started at 5am, shot apppraches down to mins all day, long sits in between flights, scheduling already extended our duty day, and our destination was going to be down to mins. I don’t think he was talking about a routine, short flight without an AP.

 

[N1120A]

Just my two cents ---- if you are uncomfortable flying in IMC without an autopilot, perhaps you shouldn't be engaging in instrument flying. Your proficiency is such that, given an autopilot malfunction, you have placed yourself into a situation where the most basic instrument flying skills (that is, enroute IMC) are too much to handle.

I'm not at all uncomfortable flying in IMC without an autopilot. I'm comfortable, current and proficient. In fact, I flew an approach, in IMC, by hand, just today. I also like to reduce workload as much as possible, especially if I'm going to be flying for a while - especially when flying with a DG that you have to reset from time to time.

Flying in IMC for an extended period of time without an AP can be exhausting. I’ve denied a plane at work because of a deferred AP. It was our fourth leg of the day, started at 5am, shot apppraches down to mins all day, long sits in between flights, scheduling already extended our duty day, and our destination was going to be down to mins. I don’t think he was talking about a routine, short flight without an AP.

Exactly - and it is twice as tiring when it is single pilot.

 

[davidgfern]

I hand fly during practice and use the autopilot in actual. What are your thoughts on that?

Again ---- why? If you cannot confidently hand fly an airplane in actual IMC, you shouldn't be flying in IMC conditions.
An autopilot is a tool that is very valuable for helping the pilot during times of high cockpit workload ----- copying a clearance, fiddling with the GPS or NAV/COM radios, troubleshooting a malfunction of some sort, etc. It should never be relied upon as a primary means of flying the airplane in order to compensate for lack of instrument proficiency.

 

[N1120A]

Again ---- why? If you cannot confidently hand fly an airplane in actual IMC, you shouldn't be flying in IMC conditions.
An autopilot is a tool that is very valuable for helping the pilot during times of high cockpit workload ----- copying a clearance, fiddling with the GPS or NAV/COM radios, troubleshooting a malfunction of some sort, etc. It should never be relied upon as a primary means of flying the airplane in order to compensate for lack of instrument proficiency.

Yeah, I mean they should totally just get rid of that RVSM autopilot rule and take all the autopilots out of transport category aircraft, not to mention all the rest of them.

Are you serious? :-/

 

[davidgfern]

Yeah, I mean they should totally just get rid of that RVSM autopilot rule and take all the autopilots out of transport category aircraft, not to mention all the rest of them.

Are you serious? :-/

Your post was perhaps the most stupid thing I've read this month.

 

[N1120A]

Your post was perhaps the most stupid thing I've read this month.

I guess you've not been reading your own.

 

[asicer]

Again ---- why? .

Maintain proficiency in both autopilot operations as well as hand flying.

 

[davidgfern]

Maintain proficiency in both autopilot operations as well as hand flying.

If you are being true to yourself, then you should practice flying on the autopilot equally while both practicing and while in actual IMC. From your initial response it sounds as if you may be using the autopilot as a crutch to compensate for lack of basic instrument proficiency. I will repeat my previous assertion ..... an autopilot is a highly valuable tool to aid in managing an aircraft in flight, however if you are using it to compensate for your own lack of instrument proficiency you are asking for trouble. Under such conditions you are subject to the tragedy known as a "single point failure" ----- in the event the autopilot fails while in IMC, you have just run out of options. Single point failures in most systems, including the system comprised of a pilot and his/her aircraft, is bad juju.

 

[asicer]

If you are being true to yourself, then you should practice flying on the autopilot equally while both practicing and while in actual IMC.

Hmm. I'll be sure to switch it up next time.

 

[chemgeek]

Again ---- why? If you cannot confidently hand fly an airplane in actual IMC, you shouldn't be flying in IMC conditions.
An autopilot is a tool that is very valuable for helping the pilot during times of high cockpit workload ----- copying a clearance, fiddling with the GPS or NAV/COM radios, troubleshooting a malfunction of some sort, etc. It should never be relied upon as a primary means of flying the airplane in order to compensate for lack of instrument proficiency.

I have a little different take. I use the AP enroute to ease some of the tedium, and turn it off for the IFR departure and approach. My AP is one-axis only, so good instrument flying skills enroute are still required, but using an AP sure helps save some mental load. While the AP can track safely on an approach, it still makes a bit of a hash of it compared to hand-flying. Using a one-axis AP for an ILS or LPV approach is like having two different people flying the plane at the same time! I just don't like watching the AP saw the plane back and forth across the final approach path. Not wild swings, but just irritating hunting. Same thing happens in slight turbulence: the AP tends to hunt a bit, while hand-flying is better at smoothing out the deviations. The AP is safe for sure, just twitchy. An AP is a godsend when knobbing a re-route in the GNS430, copying an amended clearance, or calling up an approach plate.

Bottom line: To fly IFR you need to make an effort to stay current, and that will mean taking some time to hand-fly in IMC, not just in practice. If the AP crumps, you are going to need those skills. But there may not be much extra value in spending a full 3 hours enroute hand flying in solid IMC when you could save some brain energy for the final approach phase. I did that when I was younger and too poor to install an AP. It's not THAT much fun.

 

[Ventucky Red]

First was from KLGB to KCMA and back... ceilings were at 1000 with a thick marine layer...

 

[davidgfern]

I have a little different take. I use the AP enroute to ease some of the tedium, and turn it off for the IFR departure and approach. My AP is one-axis only, so good instrument flying skills enroute are still required, but using an AP sure helps save some mental load. While the AP can track safely on an approach, it still makes a bit of a hash of it compared to hand-flying. Using a one-axis AP for an ILS or LPV approach is like having two different people flying the plane at the same time! I just don't like watching the AP saw the plane back and forth across the final approach path. Not wild swings, but just irritating hunting. Same thing happens in slight turbulence: the AP tends to hunt a bit, while hand-flying is better at smoothing out the deviations. The AP is safe for sure, just twitchy. An AP is a godsend when knobbing a re-route in the GNS430, copying an amended clearance, or calling up an approach plate.

Bottom line: To fly IFR you need to make an effort to stay current, and that will mean taking some time to hand-fly in IMC, not just in practice. If the AP crumps, you are going to need those skills. But there may not be much extra value in spending a full 3 hours enroute hand flying in solid IMC when you could save some brain energy for the final approach phase. I did that when I was younger and too poor to install an AP. It's not THAT much fun.

I don't think that we are in disagreement at all..... the point I am driving home here is that if you are using the autopilot AS A CRUTCH to protect yourself against your lousy instrument skills, you are committing suicide on the installment plan. At some point, the autopilot WILL fail ---- and autopilots in GA aircraft are notorious for not working properly (or at all). If you rely on the autopilot to save your ass while in IMC, then you are GUARANTEED to have an emergency on your hands at some point, since autopilots only fail when they are in use. Using an autopilot to give yourself a rest is okay ------ with the caveat that, should the autopilot fail while in IMC, your instrument skills as well as your mental stamina had better be good enough to get you all the way to your alternate. If you're planning a four hour flight in weather known to be IMC all the way, if you aren't mentally prepared to fly that entire four hours by hand, then the flight should be scrubbed.

 

[VWGhiaBob]

I’m in no rush to use my newly issued instrument rating. I have the utmost confidence in myself and my well equipped airplane to do this. The question is, the first time how did you guys take the plunge and say let’s do this or what was the situation that made you use it.

I did KWHP to KSBA. It was great, because without IFR, I would have been grounded that day. The usual marine layer was near minimums on both ends. It was super thrilling to punch through the clouds, and to decent on the KSBA ILS07 to near minimums...and there it was...a runway!!!!

 

[VWGhiaBob]

I’m in no rush to use my newly issued instrument rating. I have the utmost confidence in myself and my well equipped airplane to do this. The question is, the first time how did you guys take the plunge and say let’s do this or what was the situation that made you use it.

P.S. - I am shocked by how perishable IFR skills are. I am flying approaches to minimums on my simulator (www.flythissim.com) and Pilotedge for ATC (www.pilotedge.net) every day.

 

[davidgfern]

P.S. - I am shocked by how perishable IFR skills are. I am flying approaches to minimums on my simulator (www.flythissim.com) and Pilotedge for ATC (www.pilotedge.net) every day.

That is a good kind of shock to have ----- it keeps you safe.

 

[chemgeek]

I don't think that we are in disagreement at all..... the point I am driving home here is that if you are using the autopilot AS A CRUTCH to protect yourself against your lousy instrument skills, you are committing suicide on the installment plan. At some point, the autopilot WILL fail ---- and autopilots in GA aircraft are notorious for not working properly (or at all). If you rely on the autopilot to save your ass while in IMC, then you are GUARANTEED to have an emergency on your hands at some point, since autopilots only fail when they are in use. Using an autopilot to give yourself a rest is okay ------ with the caveat that, should the autopilot fail while in IMC, your instrument skills as well as your mental stamina had better be good enough to get you all the way to your alternate. If you're planning a four hour flight in weather known to be IMC all the way, if you aren't mentally prepared to fly that entire four hours by hand, then the flight should be scrubbed.

Fair enough...if you are not up to 4 hours of hand-flying in solid IMC (rare, but I've had to fly in the solid clag for an entire 3+ hour leg on occasion), you must have enough skill to navigate to and make an approach to an appropriate immediate alternate without the benefit of an AP. The AP is a safety-enhancement aid, not a replacement for basic skills.

If you truly earn an IR, you should be ready to use it. If you passed your checkride and are afraid to get your ticket wet, then something has gone wrong. You should be at peak performance for IFR flight when you get your ticket. From there it can be a challenge to stay sufficiently current as a flib-flyer like me. I wonder how many reticent IR holders have never had the experience of flying in actual IMC. Getting real conditions under your belt with an experienced instructor is an eye-opener and confidence-builder. I think I had 15+ hours in actual during my training (Central NY and the NE quadrant is a breeding ground for IMC even in the warmer months) so using the system solo afterwards was not a big leap. Back then (1980s) in-flight weather awareness was sketchy. It's soooooo much easier to make in flight weather decisions now. And GPS makes situational awareness and approaches to rural airports almost comically easy.

 

[Sundancer]

If the AP breaks en-route and it's "real" IMC, I don't abort - just sigh, hunker down and concentrate. But I ain't hand flying a 172 for two - three hours in solid IMC if I know in advance the AP is out. Again, single pilot IFR in IMC is real work in a 172, especially in turbulence, especially for a non-pro like myself; I'm just not flying in hard IMC all that often. Plus, the airplane is a whiffle ball in the bumps. The AP isn't necessarily a crutch, anymore than the GPS, but it sure makes the job easier.

I guess I mean I can do it, but I don't want to. . .

 

[PeterNSteinmetz]

About a year after getting my IR, and having been unsuccessful with finding the right days to make the trip to LA and do approaches with an instructor through the marine layer, in February I saw there were low clouds ahead of a cold front with a high enough freezing level for a safe trip. Flew Falcon Field to Ryan near Tucson and back in IMC.

That first time single pilot IFR in IMC is a rush. No major issues and great training. Better to do it in an intentional planned way than having the first IMC in more unplanned but necessary circumstances.

 

[Martin Pauly]

I hand fly during practice and use the autopilot in actual. What are your thoughts on that?

My thought is actual IMC and simulated (under the hood) are quite different. For that reason, and as a confidence builder, I suggest we should hand-fly occasionally in actual conditions for training. If all my hand-flying practice is in VMC under the hood, the day my autopilot is inop when I shoot an actual approach I will be nervous ("...haven't done this in ages...") and I won't have recent practice.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

I’m in no rush to use my newly issued instrument rating. I have the utmost confidence in myself and my well equipped airplane to do this. The question is, the first time how did you guys take the plunge and say let’s do this or what was the situation that made you use it.

Did you do any actual in training? If so, on the first day with reasonable actual (say, 500-1000 OVC), go fly. If you didn't do any actual during training, still go fly, but with a CFII. (Nothing says you can't keep using an instructor after you have the rating...) And keep doing that, until going on a short XC in actual makes you literally bored.

Go use it. Now. Early and often.

My first actual after the checkride was not a "situation that made me use it" - Quite the opposite, and on purpose. I went somewhere I didn't need to be, for no reason at all, to avoid any get-there-itis. I picked a good actual day, filed, flew KMSN-KSTE, shot an approach, landed, canceled, got my clearance outbound, and came back. No pressure at all. I highly recommend you do that a few times before there's a situation that "makes you use it" so that when you start flying missions where you do need to be at the destination on somewhat of a schedule, you're not in a situation where you're both in a rush AND somewhat green.

Just my two cents ---- if you are uncomfortable flying in IMC without an autopilot, perhaps you shouldn't be engaging in instrument flying. Your proficiency is such that, given an autopilot malfunction, you have placed yourself into a situation where the most basic instrument flying skills (that is, enroute IMC) are too much to handle.

Nobody ever said it was too much to handle, or that they couldn't confidently hand fly an airplane in actual...

Again ---- why? If you cannot confidently hand fly an airplane in actual IMC, you shouldn't be flying in IMC conditions.
An autopilot is a tool that is very valuable for helping the pilot during times of high cockpit workload ----- copying a clearance, fiddling with the GPS or NAV/COM radios, troubleshooting a malfunction of some sort, etc. It should never be relied upon as a primary means of flying the airplane in order to compensate for lack of instrument proficiency.

It *should* be relied upon as a primary means of flying the airplane en route, not just "during times of high cockpit workload", to keep you as fresh as possible for the approach at the end. I agree that it should not compensate for lack of instrument proficiency, but nobody in this thread said anything insinuating that they were using it that way and then you jumped down their throat and called them stupid.

I would suggest that you meet some other PoAers in person. Aviation is a small community, and we shouldn't be treating each other like that. Plus, it's fun to meet people and not just be SGOTI.

 

[Greg Bockelman]

There is a reason, in my world, that an autopilot is required to be operable and used when the weather is below certain values.

 

[davidgfern]

Did you do any actual in training? If so, on the first day with reasonable actual (say, 500-1000 OVC), go fly. If you didn't do any actual during training, still go fly, but with a CFII. (Nothing says you can't keep using an instructor after you have the rating...) And keep doing that, until going on a short XC in actual makes you literally bored.

Go use it. Now. Early and often.

My first actual after the checkride was not a "situation that made me use it" - Quite the opposite, and on purpose. I went somewhere I didn't need to be, for no reason at all, to avoid any get-there-itis. I picked a good actual day, filed, flew KMSN-KSTE, shot an approach, landed, canceled, got my clearance outbound, and came back. No pressure at all. I highly recommend you do that a few times before there's a situation that "makes you use it" so that when you start flying missions where you do need to be at the destination on somewhat of a schedule, you're not in a situation where you're both in a rush AND somewhat green.



Nobody ever said it was too much to handle, or that they couldn't confidently hand fly an airplane in actual...



It *should* be relied upon as a primary means of flying the airplane en route, not just "during times of high cockpit workload", to keep you as fresh as possible for the approach at the end. I agree that it should not compensate for lack of instrument proficiency, but nobody in this thread said anything insinuating that they were using it that way and then you jumped down their throat and called them stupid.

I would suggest that you meet some other PoAers in person. Aviation is a small community, and we shouldn't be treating each other like that. Plus, it's fun to meet people and not just be SGOTI.

No..... the person that I called "stupid" made a ridiculous comment about ripping all autopilots out of aircraft, which had absolutely ZERO relevance to the discussion at hand. There was nothing cryptic about what I was saying with respect to how an autopilot should be used, however that individual decided to jump in with an idiotic non-sequitur.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

No..... the person that I called "stupid" made a ridiculous comment about ripping all autopilots out of aircraft, which had absolutely ZERO relevance to the discussion at hand. There was nothing cryptic about what I was saying with respect to how an autopilot should be used, however that individual decided to jump in with an idiotic non-sequitur.

That doesn't mean you should call people stupid. We much prefer firing back other idiotic non-sequiturs here.