Yingling 172

Quite a few SR22's for $200k or less. Used but not that old.
 
I think its not a terrible deal. In a society that enjoys instant gratification there's not a lot of work involved in getting a beautiful airplane for a lot less than the cost of a new one, with this option.

Sure I can buy a cheap one, insure it, hangar it, then spend a couple years restoring it all the while paying for hangar and insurance and NOT flying it.
 
Everskyward said:
3. Some people want others to do the work for them before they buy (the Yingling example).
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You can still get a 2000ish hour tt, 0 TSMO, nice looking and nicely paneled 172, even a 180hp or XP, for much less than 200k.
 
James331 said:
You can still get a 2000ish hour tt, 0 TSMO, nice looking and nicely paneled 172, even a 180hp or XP, for much less than 200k.
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I'm sure you *can* but it's not the same thing. I'm also guessing a private seller will not stand by their product like Yingling will, since they have a reputation to protect. This is a big plus for an inexperienced buyer.
 
pre buy?

In that case just take your 200k and buy 3 really nice 172Ns, if the first one is a turd scrap it, second one is a turd scrap it, you'll still end up saving money compared to that expensive yingling deal.

Real world, buy a really nice 172 180hp or a XP, even if you have Mr Magoo doing your prebuy, the difference between what a cream puff, decked out, 172XP goes for and 200k, that will leave you will plenty of extra &$ which will cover A LOT of squawks and A LOT of 100ll and you'll have a better and more desirable 172 in the end of the day.
 
James331 said:
pre buy?

In that case just take your 200k and buy 3 really nice 172Ns, if the first one is a turd scrap it, second one is a turd scrap it, you'll still end up saving money compared to that expensive yingling deal.
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But for some people it's more appealing than going through what you describe above.
 
Unless you're Warren Buffett or Bill Gates you're probably better off saving 100k, spending a weekend with a AP on a prebuy and ending up with a better plane. I don't know many folks who would sacrifice $100k+ to save a day and a few phone calls.

besides

Folks with 200k to burn ain't looking at 172Ns, no matter how yellow you paint them.
 
James331 said:
Unless you're Warren Buffett or Bill Gates you're probably better off saving 100k, spending a weekend with a AP on a prebuy and ending up with a better plane. I don't know many folks who would sacrifice $100k+ to save a day and a few phone calls.

besides

Folks with 200k to burn ain't looking at 172Ns, no matter how yellow you paint them.
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It's more than a day and a few phone calls, and you wouldn't be getting an equivalent airplane.

Just because you wouldn't do it doesn't mean that it doesn't have some appeal to others.
 
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OkieAviator said:
I also used there pricing compared to another place here that rents G1000 172s and charges 40% more per hour. The operating expensive is also going to be different, you might have less maintenance costs on fixing squawks but you'll pay more in insurance given the difference in hull value.
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The 172S has a 180hp fuel injected engine and requires maintenance on a G1000 panel (to include silly expensive battery replacements). It is also a plane that costs between 200 and 300k, not 160 to buy. If a flight school can indeed get a 40% premium for a shiny modern plane, it further surpports the business case for the Yingling version.

Otherwise I would do what I already did... get a structurally decent 172 with a worn out engine... get the engine overhauled, STOL kit, new interior, new paint and some updated avionics... Did this for about half of what this Yingling costs.
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And there is nothing wrong with that.


What do you think you could get for the plane in your customized configuration ?
 
Everskyward said:
It's more than a day and a few phone calls, and you wouldn't be getting an equivalent airplane.

Just because you wouldn't do it doesn't mean that it doesn't have some appeal to others.
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I agree, it won't be equivalent, a yingling vs a nice 180hp or XP, go to sell it you're going to get less for your underpowered 172N, it's just model, condition, TT, TSMO. Don't kid yourself it's a new plane, it's just a nicely done up 172N.

They'll sell a couple I'm sure, but I doubt it's going to be the next big thing and for good reason.
 
James331 said:
I agree, it won't be equivalent, a yingling vs a nice 180hp or XP, go to sell it you're going to get less for your underpowered 172N, it's just model, condition, TT, TSMO. Don't kid yourself it's a new plane, it's just a nicely done up 172N.

They'll sell a couple I'm sure, but I doubt it's going to be the next big thing and for good reason.
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Curb appeal is important, especially to those new to aviation.

As far as the next big thing, I don't thing there is anything out there that would qualify, so it doesn't matter that this doesn't.
 
Everskyward said:
Curb appeal is important, especially to those new to aviation.

As far as the next big thing, I don't thing there is anything out there that would qualify, so it doesn't matter that this doesn't.
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There are a couple of companies that do a smiliar thing (or at least tried to). I remember one outfit updating early SR22s with the R9 Avidyne panel, someone else was doing Cherokee Sixes. I dont rmember any of them ever really getting very far. Otoh, this is a common model with Ag planes. A whole cottage industry that lives off collecting scrap wings out of trees and corroded fuselages out of barns to turn them into something new. Maybe Ag operators aren't quite as cheap as the average GA pilot ?
 
Nobody thought $200K Carbon Cubs would sell. Or $250K Huskies. Somebody out there's buying them.
If you want a lesson in airplane economics go build one. Certificated or E-AB from a kit. Betcha you won't criticize Yingling after you do.
 
Stewartb said:
Nobody thought $200K Carbon Cubs would sell. Or $250K Huskies. Somebody out there's buying them.
If you want a lesson in airplane economics go build one. Certificated or E-AB from a kit. Betcha you won't criticize Yingling after you do.
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A brand new 0 time carbon cub, brand new 0 time husky, rebuilt piper braves which are working plane$... and a overhauled and painted 172N for $200k

One of these things isn't like the others.
 
weilke said:
What do you think you could get for the plane in your customized configuration ?
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Not going to go down that path, if I throw a number out there will be a mess of threads following that. But here's a run through of how I would start another 172 project if I was doing one today...
Buy this plane assuming it checks out for about $30K (Maybe less). Spend the 16K to overhaul the engine as well as a new paint job for $9K, new interior for $8K, get some wheel pants for $1K a set (Or maybe go Tundra tires). Just looking at this plane I would settle with the 340, 430 but toss in Garmins new ADSB transponder combo for maybe $5K (think that's the price right now), put a STOL kit on it $5K and you'll end up with a very nice 172 that has a useful over 1000 lbs is IFR capable $74K. Rough guesstimates on the costs, if you're handy and either an A&P or know one that will sign off your work you can trade time for costs.

Now as others pointed out this could take 6 months or so to do, and takes effort to do. It's also not exactly like the Yingling because it's not a bottom up build.
 
The ultimate cost of the airplane is the DIFFERENCE between what you paid for it and what you sell it for. But a $50k plane, put 1000 hours on it and sell it for $40k, a cost of $10k. Of course to do that you have to put $60 an hour into it in hangar, insurance, annual, maintenance and fuel. That is $60k in running costs.

Plane ownership can start at $20k with a Cessna 150 or equivalent. But it also costs $10k a year, ongoing. It depends. If you tie it down, don't insure it and do your own maintenance, that can get it down to $5k a year, but you are going to be scrounging.

You might do it for less than you can rent it for, but owning, you get plane ownership which is another hobby beyond renting and flying.
 
$10k a year just own a C150, without factoring in 100ll!!!!

I don't think you're doning it right, that's way more then I pay per year (fuel aside) for my hangared and pampered big bore Cessna.

The reserve numbers, hangar hour numbers and all that logic makes it unaffordable to even drive a 250cc scooter.
 
OkieAviator said:
Not going to go down that path, if I throw a number out there will be a mess of threads following that. But here's a run through of how I would start another 172 project if I was doing one today...
Buy this plane assuming it checks out for about $30K (Maybe less). Spend the 16K to overhaul the engine as well as a new paint job for $9K, new interior for $8K, get some wheel pants for $1K a set (Or maybe go Tundra tires). Just looking at this plane I would settle with the 340, 430 but toss in Garmins new ADSB transponder combo for maybe $5K (think that's the price right now), put a STOL kit on it $5K and you'll end up with a very nice 172 that has a useful over 1000 lbs is IFR capable $74K. Rough guesstimates on the costs, if you're handy and either an A&P or know one that will sign off your work you can trade time for costs.

Now as others pointed out this could take 6 months or so to do, and takes effort to do. It's also not exactly like the Yingling because it's not a bottom up build.
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And once you peek behind the panel you are still looking at a 40 year old plane.

What do you think you could sell that 172 for that you now have 74k into?



Btw, 16 for a fwf overhaul sounds optimistic, there tends to be additional work like exhausts, hoses, engine mount that pushes that number, unless of course these things have recently been done)
 
weilke said:
And once you peek behind the panel you are still looking at a 40 year old plane.

What do you think you could sell that 172 for that you now have 74k into?

Btw, 16 for a fwf overhaul sounds optimistic, there tends to be additional work like exhausts, hoses, engine mount that pushes that number, unless of course these things have recently been done)
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See here I thought you were asking because you were truly interested, but now it seems you're just searching for a particular answer. The answer you're looking for I'm assuming is that you will spend more money fixing up an old plane than you would be able to sell the project for completed. I would be in agreement with you on that... but what we're talking about something that you're going to fly and will depreciate anyhow.

Also the 16K was what I paid to overhaul the engine and change out some other components last summer. Mileage may vary....
 
Also in your example you end up with a more capabible plane compared to the yingling, with STOL and 180hp, much more desirable, in many cases <180HP is a deal breaker for folks.
 
OkieAviator said:
Not going to go down that path, if I throw a number out there will be a mess of threads following that. But here's a run through of how I would start another 172 project if I was doing one today...
Buy this plane assuming it checks out for about $30K (Maybe less). Spend the 16K to overhaul the engine as well as a new paint job for $9K, new interior for $8K, get some wheel pants for $1K a set (Or maybe go Tundra tires). Just looking at this plane I would settle with the 340, 430 but toss in Garmins new ADSB transponder combo for maybe $5K (think that's the price right now), put a STOL kit on it $5K and you'll end up with a very nice 172 that has a useful over 1000 lbs is IFR capable $74K. Rough guesstimates on the costs, if you're handy and either an A&P or know one that will sign off your work you can trade time for costs.

Now as others pointed out this could take 6 months or so to do, and takes effort to do. It's also not exactly like the Yingling because it's not a bottom up build.
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I am not a fan of the Yingling 172, but I think you're estimates are a little low, paint is probably closer to $12-15K assuming no new glass or fiberglass, a new IFR GPS is going to be $12K installed, transponder maybe $5K with ADSB, audio panel/intercom $3K installed used. I bet you'd spend $60-75K to redo a 172. This airplane will appeal to people who like the idea of new or nearly new without the hassles. Look at the threads on people buying airplanes, broker issues, dishonest sellers etc, this "seems" like more of a sure thing for a novice buyer. Same group that buys new, for the same reason, it's not always logical to us veteran airplane owners. :)
 
OkieAviator said:
See here I thought you were asking because you were truly interested, but now it seems you're just searching for a particular answer. The answer you're looking for I'm assuming is that you will spend more money fixing up an old plane than you would be able to sell the project for completed. I would be in agreement with you on that...
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After you have done that refurb, if you were to sell 1 or 2 years down the line, you are upside and and going to lose the same amount of money as someone with a new plane or one of the Yingling refurbs. That's the point. You are not any smarter than them.
 
weilke said:
After you have done that refurb, if you were to sell 1 or 2 years down the line, you are upside and and going to lose the same amount of money as someone with a new plane or one of the Yingling refurbs. That's the point. You are not any smarter than them.
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Then you should have just come out and made that statement vs the nonsense response baiting you were trying to do.

I wouldn't advocate anyone buying a plane to use for a year... a plane is a depreciable asset and you'll incur your biggest hits the first 3 years. Additionally your statement about losing you will lose the 'same amount of money' of someone buying new vs used is also grossly incorrect....

N747JB said:
I am not a fan of the Yingling 172, but I think you're estimates are a little low...
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Had my paint done for $8,800, great job, no issues. Interior I did myself but it ran around $6-7K maybe. That plane already had the 430 so didn't add anything for that... so the numbers I gave were speculative based on my experience.
 
This DID turn out to be an entertaining thread after all! (I wasn't sure when I started it.)

Carry on...
 
weilke said:
After you have done that refurb, if you were to sell 1 or 2 years down the line, you are upside and and going to lose the same amount of money as someone with a new plane or one of the Yingling refurbs. That's the point. You are not any smarter than them.
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Well you don't do a refurb to that level to just sell right away, also I don't see why you don't understand this, a stock 172N is way below a 180hp or XP when it comes to the market, doesn't even have any STOL stuff and their paint schemes are crap. A done up XP with a new style Cessna swoosh paint job is going to sell WAAY before a under powered yellow 172N.
 
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