Yikes! Flight into IMC - What would you have done?

VWGhiaBob

VWGhiaBob

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VWGhiaBob
:hairraise: Think it will never happen to you? Think again...what would you have done in this situation? :hairraise:

The set up: A friend took me flying with a friend of his I'd long wanted to meet. He seemed like he might make another great flying buddy, and he owns the kind of plane I may buy. We're using the guy's plane because my friend couldn't start his (flooded).

The 3 of us are headed to a fly-in breakfast in So. Cal. I'm in the back seat. First, the guy tells me to check the weather while we're taking off (wrong assumption #1: He's the pilot and he checked it).

The answer: 1,500 foot ceiling AGL. Oops...isn't that MVFR or right on the edge? Wrong assumption #2: This guy has 1000's of hours...he must be IFR, right? Nope.

Just then, only minutes after takeoff, the soup starts to cloud in around us. He says, "I've done this before...we'll slip under it at 1000 feet." Trouble is, we're in a hilly area, and visibility starts to decline to the point we can only see the ground to the right side, and only because it's a hill (we're below the crest of the hillside). We can see people in their cars.

This is how people get killed. I'm imagining the headline, "Three VFR pilots enter IMC and hit hillside just outside Los Angeles."

He says, "No worries". I've done this before.

Stop here...what would you do? It's awkward at best. Even my friend is embarrassed to say anything, because we asked for a favor to go with the guy. It's easy to say you'd insist he turn around, but it's hard!

OK...here's what I did. I lied.

"Guys...Foreflight now says our destination is Low IFR, below minimums. Airport is closed to all traffic."

"Darn," he says. First time this has happened. Full power. Minutes later we're above it all, and my blood pressure goes back to normal.

There are many lessons learned out of this. I'll let you decide if you find any insights. For me, it's that maybe I'm more careful than some. Next time, I'll check the weather myself, and will never fly with someone I don't know without at least some forethought!
 
I never assume another pilot does a pre flight unless I ask. Also do not make it a habit to fly with someone I'm not familiar with,unless it's severe clear.
 
So your friend's plane was flooded ... Presumably a condition that would happen after strapping in, ready for flight. HE was also planning to depart unfamiliar with the weather??
 
JoeSelch...Unfortunately yes also.
 
Wow, just... wow.

Before I learned to fly, I assumed that all, or nearly all people who had gone through the training to get a pilot certificate were competent, professional and safe. I have since learned that this is most definitely not the case. There are an awful lot of people I wouldn't fly with on a dare. You got lucky. Good call on telling him the destination was low IFR, but even better that he didn't just say, "Hey, no problem, I've landed in fog before".
 
Yes...Dale. A friend of mine saw me do a careful pre-flight of a plane before we took off and then again when we finished our $400 hamburger (hey...it was a Cirrus!). He said, "I bet not all pilots are so careful". I said, "No. We are trained to do this." I have learned since how wrong I am.

Over and over I see pilots skip the pre-flight, "because it's my plane and no one has flown it since my last flight". Or, "I did the pre-flight this morning. No need to do another one just because we landed."

Wrong. Wrong. Wrong!
 
I always check the weather for any flight I am riding on or piloting, mostly because I enjoy the whole process. By doing that I am ready to suggest that we not go before we board the airplane if needed.

I think a good skill to develop is the ability to inform someone "in-charge" that you are uncomfortable with conditions and to suggest better options. I spent most of my career telling a CEO that while his ideas were just great, they included exposure to risks he hadn't anticipated ( I cleaned that up, a lot).

I think you offered a creative solution to a tough situation and I suspect next time, you won't allow yourself to be surprised.

Glad you had a good outcome and that you will learn much from the incident.

Scott
 
I think you handled it well. You learned something about who to (and not to) fly with.
 
Your solution is quite reasonable. I would have been a bit more direct. I'm not sure I would have canceled at the point I was asked to check the weather, but I'd like to think so.

I seem to remember a NASTY VFR into IMC accident trying to scud run near Agua Dulce a couple of years ago.

Any condition where one error in isolation means you're dead is to be avoided.

I'm sure you've reached a similar conclusion, but I wouldn't ever fly with this guy making decisions again.
 
Hmmm, well your friend couldn't manage to start his engine without flooding it would have been sign #1

So when bubba gump decided to add "Full power. Minutes later we're above it all" did you mean he went through the layer?

Personally, I like to run N numbers and then check the name on the airmans database, going up in iffy conditions is one thing being an ATP, where if all else fails I can get the moron out of it. As a VFR pilot, kinda think you should have, and now do, know better.
 
Set personal mins and stick to them....even if your not pic.:dunno: Okay, that is a tough call. :yes:

Well done OP, you handled it very well.
 
VWGhiaBob said:
:hairraise: Think it will never happen to you? Think again...what would you have done in this situation? :hairraise:

The set up: A friend took me flying with a friend of his I'd long wanted to meet. He seemed like he might make another great flying buddy, and he owns the kind of plane I may buy. We're using the guy's plane because my friend couldn't start his (flooded).

The 3 of us are headed to a fly-in breakfast in So. Cal. I'm in the back seat. First, the guy tells me to check the weather while we're taking off (wrong assumption #1: He's the pilot and he checked it).

The answer: 1,500 foot ceiling AGL. Oops...isn't that MVFR or right on the edge? Wrong assumption #2: This guy has 1000's of hours...he must be IFR, right? Nope.

Just then, only minutes after takeoff, the soup starts to cloud in around us. He says, "I've done this before...we'll slip under it at 1000 feet." Trouble is, we're in a hilly area, and visibility starts to decline to the point we can only see the ground to the right side, and only because it's a hill (we're below the crest of the hillside). We can see people in their cars.

This is how people get killed. I'm imagining the headline, "Three VFR pilots enter IMC and hit hillside just outside Los Angeles."

He says, "No worries". I've done this before.

Stop here...what would you do? It's awkward at best. Even my friend is embarrassed to say anything, because we asked for a favor to go with the guy. It's easy to say you'd insist he turn around, but it's hard!

OK...here's what I did. I lied.

"Guys...Foreflight now says our destination is Low IFR, below minimums. Airport is closed to all traffic."

"Darn," he says. First time this has happened. Full power. Minutes later we're above it all, and my blood pressure goes back to normal.

There are many lessons learned out of this. I'll let you decide if you find any insights. For me, it's that maybe I'm more careful than some. Next time, I'll check the weather myself, and will never fly with someone I don't know without at least some forethought!
Click to expand...

And just exactly how was this accomplished? Did you find a hole or just climb through a layer?
 
Knowthat lesson well about knowing exactly who the pilot is. So my group was looking at a Comanche. It was in a hangar. Guy didn't bother to pre flight. Said it was exactly how he left it....made me nervous. But he has thousands of hours..... Lets see....condensation in fuel tanks maybe? enough oil maybe? birds in cowl maybe? Ask him to demonstrate preflight on the plane....waste of time he says. Stupid me gets in. he's demonstrating stability by flying hands off iin climb, i notice airspeed dropping, and he is in an un coordinated turn. I ask him to put hands on yoke and bring it down as I am nauseous (ok a fib but I didn't want to fly with the guy). Come to find out when we were in air two other pilots fly it. So yes I know that lesson about knowing who you are flying with. Never again....
 
Two people have now asked the first question that went through my mind, without an answer - how did you get above it all?

If its what we all think, he'd be wise to keep his mouth shut.
 
Blatham489 said:
Two people have now asked the first question that went through my mind, without an answer - how did you get above it all?

If its what we all think, he'd be wise to keep his mouth shut.
Click to expand...


How'd they get back down?
 
"Everyone is out there to kill you"
 
jeez, I had 3000' feet to play with today here and decided to stay home. This kind of stuff blows me away...ironically, I'm right in the middle of reading the "Killing Zone" and it's littered with this kind of stuff.

Man, no freggin' way you'd catch me messing with that. Never. I'm starting IFR in the spring (provided the group pulls the trigger and gets a 430W installed to replace our 300). This stuff freaks me out.
 
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"Darn," he says. First time this has happened. Full power. Minutes later we're above it all, and my blood pressure goes back to normal.
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Henning said:
And just exactly how was this accomplished? Did you find a hole or just climb through a layer?
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Doesn't matter. He was already in it and not departing was no longer an option. Given the circumstances, discontinuing the descending ceiling scud running and climbing out of it was the right thing to do (presuming he couldn't reverse his course 180d). Ideally he turned on his wing leveler/autopilot before entering the the clouds (which is the impression I got).
 
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kenjr said:
Man, no freggin' way you'd catch me messing with that. Never. I'm starting IFR in the spring (provided the group pulls the trigger and gets a 430W installed to replace our 300). This stuff freaks me out.
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Or you all could learn the trade on a 4/6 pack. I don't know what a 300 or 430W is, but it sounds like something that nobody I knew ever learned instrument flying with :) In all seriousness, you can just as capably and safely fly with steam gauges and an RMI/HSI/CDI(**gasp**ADF**) in hard IMC as you can with GPS and super gucci displays. Don't let anyone convince you otherwise.
 
DaleB said:
Before I learned to fly, I assumed that all, or nearly all people who had gone through the training to get a pilot certificate were competent, professional and safe.
Click to expand...

Dale, your first mistake is assuming that all who are flying have gone through training and/or have a certificate. I've met dozens that have not. I found this to be especially prevalent when I worked in The South (GA, MS, AL, SC, etc.)
 
Jeff K said:
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Doesn't matter. He was already in it and not departing was no longer an option. Given the circumstances, discontinuing the descending ceiling scud running and climbing out of it was the right thing to do (presuming he couldn't reverse his course 180d). Ideally he turned on his wing leveler/autopilot before entering the the clouds (which is the impression I got).
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I don't know how you conclude that, I see no mention of either A/P or wing leveler, nor is there anything said about not being able to make the u-turn (but the hillside he mentions may have been why that was not attempted). There is a rather large assumption (yet another one of those) made that they will break out of the clouds. For a non-IR rated pilot to enter the clouds not knowing the tops is Russian roulette with 5 rounds in a 6-shooter, they are all lucky they didn't break out of the cloud bottoms in a graveyard spiral.

It seems to me this guy needs to be reported, and quickly. Loss of life in the future is almost guaranteed otherwise.
 
VWGhiaBob said:
Think it will never happen to you? Think again...
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Thanks, your cautionary tale is appreciated!

But no, I don't think getting stuck VFR below a 1000' ceiling will ever happen to me. (It hasn't yet, and I've already done most of the flying I ever will.) I always get an online weather briefing before I fly, even if someone else is PIC. And I expect the PIC to brief the flight with me (just as I offer to do when a pilot is my passenger).
 
Be very careful about with whom you fly, Bob.

And get an instrument rating. You deserve it. In Cal, this theme will recur over and over....
 
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Since a few of you asked, we were confident we'd quickly break out of the clouds, since they were mostly classic CA marine layer. We get them frequently this time of year, and they rarely go above 3000'AGL. So they weren't storm clouds, but just extra-thick low clouds and fog. Never again!
 
VWGhiaBob You were able to make something up and have the pilot go back. I think you should have talked to the pilot (may be you did) after he landed and explained that you had to lie in order not get killed. The pilot needs to know he did something extremely stupid. He might take other passengers who might not know at all that there is anything wrong and get them killed.
 
Stuff can go bad in a hurry. I know when I am not PIC that I make assumptions all the time. But I only remember one time (other than commerial) that I've flown with someone I didn't know.
 
Blatham489 said:
Two people have now asked the first question that went through my mind, without an answer - how did you get above it all?

If its what we all think, he'd be wise to keep his mouth shut.
Click to expand...

The OP wasn't PIC and wasn't flying. He's fine. The PIC might potentially have some trouble, but it's unlikely, and would be a good thing.
 
I say this with the utmost of respect: The time to deal with this is on the ground. You knew there were 1500' ceilings. You knew no clearance was called for. Even if the guy had a rating, it makes no difference if you don't get a clearance. The time to stop this was anytime prior to lift off. If there was any doubt, say something like, "those ceilings look a little low, did you file up?". If you get back, "Nah, we'll be OK underneath". Then the answer is to get out of the airplane, even if you're already in the runup area.

Once again, no offense intended, but you have to be more assertive. If the guy was playing around in the FBO with a loaded shotgun; I'm sure you would have said something without worrying about offending him.


You are lucky to be alive.
 
Jeff K said:
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Doesn't matter. He was already in it and not departing was no longer an option. Given the circumstances, discontinuing the descending ceiling scud running and climbing out of it was the right thing to do (presuming he couldn't reverse his course 180d). Ideally he turned on his wing leveler/autopilot before entering the the clouds (which is the impression I got).
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Nonsense.

I'd rather these bozos snag a cell tower than hit another IFR aircraft legally on a clearance in IMC.

OP, you need to find better flying buddies. My only advice at this point is to avoid flying with them and keep your suit pressed for the eventual funeral.
 
White Bird...I was too shaken to talk about much of anything. To make matters works, on landing, the pilot let my friend land the plane. He forgot that the right brake didn't work on the co-pilot side. After the IMC fiasco, we almost veered off the runway as my friend started to brake. Only a quick rescue and a lot of tire noise did the plane slow down...at the very end of the 4000' runway.

I did talk to my friend...told him that's how pilots get killed. I probably won't see the other guy again and certainly won't fly with him. He's in his 70's and has thousands of hours...so most likely, advise from a guy with 150 hours won't have much influence. Still...you're right...I should have said something. I was focused though on calming down!
 
My wife was always unconfortable flying with me IFR in IMC -- because of the nagging thought that some NORDO squirrel might be occupying the same cloud that we are.

I used to tell her not to worry about that -- until one day when soon after I launched into IMC, ATC excitedly called traffic at very close range. I popped out of the cloud just long enough to see a NORDO Lancair zipping by in the opposite direction about a quarter mile away, and disappear into the same cloud I had just vacated.

:eek:
 
Knowingly launching into mvfr/imc with the intent to scud run, is not the smartest thing to do. Esp. in hilly territory.

Now getting caught out while on a vfr trip, and having to hit the "nrst" button and land to wait for things to clear up is another.
 
Good judgement comes from experience.

Experience comes from bad judgement.
 
Wow. Just wow. :goofy::mad2:

I am based in So Cal and fly both VFR and IFR regularly. Lately, there have been enough clouds around that if you want to stay legal VFR, depending on your destination, you'd have to scud run or get lucky with the clouds. It's been OBVIOUS. Basic pilot 101.

As for 3k tops as being the norm for So Cal, you're wrong. It very frequently is 5k+. Yesterday, they were over 7k. Easy IFR, if you're competent and on a filed plan

When it's like this, I just file IFR. Then inevitably, I still have to watch for the dip----s like this out there ignorant and oblivious of legal cloud separations. It gets very concerning and frustrating, and dangerous.

Standing on the ground looking at the sky in all directions, you should question the wx and get a briefing BEFORE getting in the plane. This story is mind-blowing and idiotic and dangerous.

I hope you guys aren't anywhere near my airport. I have no tolerance for dumba--es like what you've described in this story. Dumbarse moves like that will either get you killed or others or both, especially in a busy airspace like SoCal.

As for what I would have done, I would have paid attention to my surroundings BEFORE I got in the plane, and questioned the PIC at that point. I always know what the pilot's qualifications are before I fly with them.

Sorry for the rant, but that crap was inexcusable. It's not rocket science.
 
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Glad you guys made it OK without killing anyone. Good lesson learned, even if it was the wrong way.
 
ActiveAir said:
Wow. Just wow. :goofy::mad2:

[Lots of sanctimonious ranting removed]


Sorry for the rant, but that crap was inexcusable. It's not rocket science.
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I think you're being a little harsh, and it is easy to criticize from afar. When he departed, he was not PIC and the weather was legal to depart MVFR.
 
bluerooster said:
Knowingly launching into mvfr/imc with the intent to scud run, is not the smartest thing to do. Esp. in hilly territory.
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How does one scud run in IMC?

bluerooster said:
Now getting caught out while on a vfr trip, and having to hit the "nrst" button and land to wait for things to clear up is another.
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NRST button lol

Situational awareness works great too :dunno:
 
BobThePilot said:
I think you're being a little harsh, and it is easy to criticize from afar. When he departed, he was not PIC and the weather was legal to depart MVFR.
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Yes, harsh, but as you said, it was "mvfr". That should trigger every pilot to confirm the wx whether they are PIC or or just riding along. MVFR around a mountainous terrain is reason for a closer look and better understanding before departing.
 
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