XC time logging for IFR training

[MacFlier]

So, what defines a cross-country flight for logging time for IFR? I've been using a rule where I only log flights as cross-country if they're over 50nm from my origin.
Is that correct or should I also log flights to any airport that is not the origin?

 

[midlifeflyer]

So, what defines a cross-country flight for logging time for IFR? I've been using a rule where I only log flights as cross-country if they're over 50nm from my origin.
Is that correct or should I also log flights to any airport that is not the origin?

Yes that is correct. The definition is right there in 61.1:

Cross-country time means -
***

(ii) For the purpose of meeting the aeronautical experience requirements (except for a rotorcraft category rating), for a private pilot certificate (except for a powered parachute category rating), a commercial pilot certificate, or an instrument rating, or for the purpose of exercising recreational pilot privileges (except in a rotorcraft) under § 61.101(c), time acquired during a flight--

(A) Conducted in an appropriate aircraft;
(B) That includes a point of landing that was at least a straight-line distance of more than 50 nautical miles from the original point of departure; and
(C) That involves the use of dead reckoning, pilotage, electronic navigation aids, radio aids, or other navigation systems to navigate to the landing point.​

 

[MacFlier]

Yes that is correct. The definition is right there in 61.1:

Cross-country time means -
***

(ii) For the purpose of meeting the aeronautical experience requirements (except for a rotorcraft category rating), for a private pilot certificate (except for a powered parachute category rating), a commercial pilot certificate, or an instrument rating, or for the purpose of exercising recreational pilot privileges (except in a rotorcraft) under § 61.101(c), time acquired during a flight--

(A) Conducted in an appropriate aircraft;
(B) That includes a point of landing that was at least a straight-line distance of more than 50 nautical miles from the original point of departure; and
(C) That involves the use of dead reckoning, pilotage, electronic navigation aids, radio aids, or other navigation systems to navigate to the landing point.​

Thanks! It's good to know that I'm logging it correctly.

 

[Auser6664]

Please note that if you go from

A to B = less than 50 nm, then go the other way
B to C =more than 50 nm
but
C to A is less than 50nm

you can only log B to C time as cross country.

EDIT: Correction. You can log B to C + C to B as your cross country.

 

[RingLaserGyroSandwich]

Please note that if you go from

A to B = less than 50 nm, then go the other way
B to C =more than 50 nm
but
C to A is less than 50nm

you can only log B to C time as cross country.

Why can’t you just treat that all as one cc flight? What regulation are you being wary of?

 

[Wheels]

Please note that if you go from

A to B = less than 50 nm, then go the other way
B to C =more than 50 nm
but
C to A is less than 50nm

you can only log B to C time as cross country.

You would be able to log B to C to A as cross country.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Please note that if you go from

A to B = less than 50 nm, then go the other way
B to C =more than 50 nm
but
C to A is less than 50nm

you can only log B to C time as cross country.

Maybe use a real example? Offhand, it sounds like @Wheels is correct. A to B is a repositioning flight and B to C to A is a usable cross country.

 

[Juliet Hotel]

Please note that if you go from

A to B = less than 50 nm, then go the other way
B to C =more than 50 nm
but
C to A is less than 50nm

you can only log B to C time as cross country.

Please post your reference for this.

 

[Auser6664]

Why can’t you just treat that all as one cc flight? What regulation are you being wary of?

I’m not an expert. I think it has to do something with origin of the segment. I think you might even be able to log C to A. But I don’t think you can log A to B.

So, you would log A to B as a separate flight and B to C and C to A as the X-country flight.


(B) That includes a point of landing that was at least a straight-line distance of more than 50 nautical miles from the original point of departure; and

 

[Auser6664]

Please post your reference for this.

(B) That includes a point of landing that was at least a straight-line distance of more than 50 nautical miles from the original point of departure ; and

Is A the origin of departure?
If yes, is B a straight-line distance of more than 50 nautical miles from A? We know the answer is NO.

 

[midlifeflyer]

(B) That includes a point of landing that was at least a straight-line distance of more than 50 nautical miles from the original point of departure ; and

Is A the origin of departure?
If yes, is B a straight-line distance of more than 50 nautical miles from A? We know the answer is NO.

B is the "original point of departure" in your example. You already said B to C is >50 NM, so you have covered the requirement. Everything after that is countable.

 

[Auser6664]

B is the "original point of departure" in your example. You already said B to C is >50 NM, so you have covered the requirement. Everything after that is countable.

So let me give you a real example.

I start from KSAC. That’s my A.
I fly to KLHM. That’s my B.
Then, I fly to KSCK. That’s my C.
Finally, I am back home to KSAC.

I will log KSAC to KLHM as one flight.

I’ll log my KLHM to KSCK and KSCK to KSAC as another flight, which is eligible for x-country.


The important thing to note is I can not log A to B as cross country and I cannot make A as my origin point of departure.

 

[RingLaserGyroSandwich]

I can see how A to B does not technically count, but if you just did a touch and go at B, splitting up the flight into two entries, the latter being cc, might not be practical. I find it hard to believe this distinction would ever matter if you didn’t go out of your way to abuse it.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Here's one to pay with

 

[Auser6664]

I can see how A to B does not technically count, but if you just did a touch and go at B, splitting up the flight into two entries, the latter being cc, might not be practical. I find it hard to believe this distinction would ever matter if you didn’t go out of your way to abuse it.

All I’m saying is A to B doesn’t count.

 

[midlifeflyer]

So let me give you a real example.

I start from KSAC. That’s my A.
I fly to KLHM. That’s my B.
Then, I fly to KSCK. That’s my C.
Finally, I am back home to KSAC.

I will log KSAC to KLHM as one flight.

I’ll log my KLHM to KSCK and KSCK to KSAC as another flight, which is eligible for x-country.


The important thing to note is I can not log A to B as cross country and I cannot make A as my origin point of departure.

Yep.

 

[MauleSkinner]

All of it can be logged as cross country...it’s just the 50+ mile stuff that can be used to meet the experience requirements for most certificate/rating applications, including the instrument rating.

the issue is confused in the OPby the term “for IFR”...are you asking about cross country for your instrument rating, or cross country when flying IFR?

 

[Auser6664]

All of it can be logged as cross country...it’s just the 50+ mile stuff that can be used to meet the experience requirements for most certificate/rating applications, including the instrument rating.

the issue is confused in the OPby the term “for IFR”...are you asking about cross country for your instrument rating, or cross country when flying IFR?

How can one log KSAC to KLHM, the initial segment as CC? I don’t think you can.

Also, from what I know, there is no difference between VFR CC and IFR CC.

 

[midlifeflyer]

All of it can be logged as cross country...it’s just the 50+ mile stuff that can be used to meet the experience requirements for most certificate/rating applications, including the instrument rating.

the issue is confused in the OPby the term “for IFR”...are you asking about cross country for your instrument rating, or cross country when flying IFR?

True, but the OP (and the thread) was specifically asking about logging for the instrument rating, not for Part 135 authorization.

 

[MauleSkinner]

How can one log KSAC to KLHM, the initial segment as CC? I don’t think you can.

Per 61.1, the basic definition of cross country does not include a distance. Distance requirements are exceptions relating to experience requirements for a certificate/rating. Shorter distances are loggable.

Cross-country time means—

(i) Except as provided in paragraphs (ii) through (vi) of this definition, time acquired during flight—

(A) Conducted by a person who holds a pilot certificate;

(B) Conducted in an aircraft;

(C) That includes a landing at a point other than the point of departure; and

(D) That involves the use of dead reckoning, pilotage, electronic navigation aids, radio aids, or other navigation systems to navigate to the landing point.

 

[Juliet Hotel]

(B) That includes a point of landing that was at least a straight-line distance of more than 50 nautical miles from the original point of departure ; and

Is A the origin of departure?
If yes, is B a straight-line distance of more than 50 nautical miles from A? We know the answer is NO.

Ah I see now. Thanks for clarifying. So the moral of the story is if you're trying to build time toward a new cert or rating, make sure you land somewhere that's at least 50nm from point A.

 

[MauleSkinner]

True, but the OP (and the thread) was specifically asking about logging for the instrument rating, not for Part 135 authorization.

Ok...if I’d read the thread title it would have made sense.

 

[MacFlier]

All of it can be logged as cross country...it’s just the 50+ mile stuff that can be used to meet the experience requirements for most certificate/rating applications, including the instrument rating.

the issue is confused in the OPby the term “for IFR”...are you asking about cross country for your instrument rating, or cross country when flying IFR?

Yes. What confused me was the definition of cross-county flight is that you land anywhere but the origin. However, it only counts towards a rating if you fly more than 50nm.

 

[MacFlier]

So let me give you a real example.

I start from KSAC. That’s my A.
I fly to KLHM. That’s my B.
Then, I fly to KSCK. That’s my C.
Finally, I am back home to KSAC.

I will log KSAC to KLHM as one flight.

I’ll log my KLHM to KSCK and KSCK to KSAC as another flight, which is eligible for x-country.


The important thing to note is I can not log A to B as cross country and I cannot make A as my origin point of departure.

In my case I usually do A->B (<50nm) then B->C (<50nm) and C->A (> 50nm). I believe all three legs count as cross country, right?

 

[Auser6664]

In my case I usually do A->B (<50nm) then B->C (<50nm) and C->A (> 50nm). I believe all three legs count as cross country, right?

If A is your starting point and A to C is greater than 50nm, you are GOOD

 

[WDD]

If A is your starting point and A to C is greater than 50nm, you are GOOD

This is getting excessively complicated. If you fly your airplane and land somewhere at some point of your trip at an airport that is over 50 nautical miles from where you started you claim all and any trip hours as X country.

If you fly for 12 hours but never go beyond 50 nm nothing counts. If you fly straight to an airport 51 nm away and come back it counts.

 

[kath]

If the airport is less than 50 miles away and serves sandwiches, and you order one, then it counts. But if you order a salad it doesn't count. If the restaurant serves something other than sandwiches, then it has to be more than 50 miles away in order to count. Or, if the airport is Towered, and you can order a sandwich from the Tower, then it counts, but if there's only one guy in the Tower who can't step away from the microphone to place the order, then it doesn't count, unless it's uncontrolled and Unicom can do it. If there's a restaurant that will deliver to the airport, then it can count, but only if the airport is not Towered or if the Tower is closed or it's class E airspace all the way to the ground. If the class E stops at 700 feet, then you can log it for the Commercial XC, but only if you're solo, or accompanied by a sandwich. If it's a TRSA then nothing counts. If you can get beer at the airport, then it counts no matter how far away it is. Check the FAR's. Duh. Who's teaching pilots nowadays?

 

[Auser6664]

If you fly for 12 hours but never go beyond 50 nm nothing counts.

Never go beyond 50 nm from where? That’s the whole point of this discussion.

If you fly straight to an airport 51 nm away and come back it counts.

Wrong - you don’t have to come back to make it count. Each leg by itself is a X-county.

 

[WDD]

Never go beyond 50 nm from where? That’s the whole point of this discussion.


Wrong - you don’t have to come back to make it count. Each leg by itself is a X-county.

Getting a little picky here. Never go beyond 50 miles “from where you start”. Thought it was simple enough.

“If you fly to an airport 51 miles away and come back it counts.” Don’t know how that’s wrong.

if you never go longer than 50 miles in your trip it’s just not going to count

 

[Auser6664]

Getting a little picky here. Never go beyond 50 miles from where you start.

Sorry but wrong again.

Neither KLHM nor KSCK is more than 50 miles from KSAC - where I start. But the flight from KLHM to KSCK + KSCK to KSAC still counts as CC.

 

[WDD]

Sorry but wrong again.

Neither KLHM nor KSCK is more than 50 miles from KSAC - where I start. But the flight from KLHM to KSCK + KSCK to KSAC still counts as CC.

If you can tease out of that scenario two points that are 50 nm or more in a straight line then you win a cookie. But doing so you will have flown more than 50 miles in your trip. If your trip ends and you haven’t flown 50 miles no scenario is going to be x country

I think you just like to say “ah ha!! Wrong again . Buh wha ha ha ....”

 

[Auser6664]

“If you fly to an airport 51 miles away and come back it counts.” Don’t know how that’s wrong.

You don’t have to “come back” to make it a CC. Hope that makes sense

 

[midlifeflyer]

Wrong - you don’t have to come back to make it count. Each leg by itself is a X-county.

So you are saying if you fly 51 nm and come back, it doesn't count? Interesting.

 

[Auser6664]

So you are saying if you fly 51 nm and come back, it doesn't count? Interesting.

No. I’m saying if you fly and don’t come back, it STILL COUNTS.

 

[IK04]

This rule didn't exist when I got my instrument rating.

We also had to have a minimum of 200 hours, so maybe that is related...?

 

[midlifeflyer]

No. I’m saying if you fly and don’t come back, it STILL COUNTS.

But the post you yelled WRONG to was correct.

If you fly straight to an airport 51 nm away and come back it counts.

If you go and return it does count. Of course other things count too. Fly a zig zag line stopping at an airport every five miles, with the last one being 380 miles from the starting point, drop the airplane off to its new owner and take a bus back and the one-way flight counts too.

So your WRONG was WRONG. Or at least as WRONG as his was. Much too limited to one destination and only 51 miles,

We can all have fun parsing other people's posts and yelling at them for nothing.

 

[Auser6664]

But the post you yelled WRONG to was correct.

If you go and return it does count. Of course other things count too. Fly a zig zag line stopping at an airport every five miles, with the last one being 380 miles from the starting point, drop the airplane off to its new owner and take a bus back and the one-way flight counts too.

So your WRONG was WRONG. Or at least as WRONG as his was. Much too limited to one destination and only 51 miles,

We can all have fun parsing other people's posts and yelling at them for nothing.

So, do you have to come back to make it CC? No. How is that wrong?

If you don’t understand what I was trying to tell him, I can explain it to you, again.

But if you or him is hurt because something I said or the way I said it

 

[midlifeflyer]

So, do you have to come back to make it CC? No. How is that wrong?

Of course you don't have to come back. But that's not what you said.

He said, "If you fly to an airport 51 miles away and come back it counts."

You could have said, "It also counts if you don't come back." Instead, you apparently decided to read his post as something like, "Only If you fly to an airport 51 miles away and come back it counts" and start yelling at him. Not once, but a number of times.

Doesn't hurt me. But like most yelling, it does tend to block out whatever knowledge you might actually have to contribute.

 

[Auser6664]

Of course you don't have to come back. But that's not what you said.

He said, "If you fly to an airport 51 miles away and come back it counts."

You could have said, "It also counts if you don't come back." Instead, you apparently decided to read his post as something like, "Only If you fly to an airport 51 miles away and come back it counts" and start yelling at him. Not once, but a number of times.

Doesn't hurt me. But like most yelling, it does tend to block out whatever knowledge you might actually have to contribute.

So, I was right (at least in this instance) for pointing out that you don’t have to come back to make it a CC.

I just said “Wrong”. You are saying that I yelled. Hmm.

Btw, this is how he started his posts (by quoting one of my posts)

This is getting excessively complicated.

And then he tells that you fly away and come back, it’s a CC. The “come back” part is not needed to make it a CC. It’s not simple - it’s FAA

Now, will you go teach him how to be nice to others too? Or did you get a cookie from him?

Just kidding

 

[WDD]

Offering people a cookie is "nice". (I think that was a catch phrase from a comedian from way back when, but I can't remember exactly who).

Anyway - I do like to simplify things whenever possible.

And we're all here because we somehow convince ourselves to spend a lot of money on a great hobby. So not my intentions to insult, prove I'm smarter, have better looking hair, whiter teeth, or that women swoon when I tell them I'm a pilot (tried that on my wife - she nodded and smiled, and rolled her eyes LOL). Just adding my 2 cents to conversations.