XC question

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vkhosid

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Hey guys,

So, I just went on my first long XC flight (with the instructor). For details' sake, it was KLVK-KCPU-KMOD-KLVK. Flying between the points wasn't really that big of a deal and I was able to find each airport/check point relatively easily. My question is this, though:

While flying the route, I was a little confused as to who to contact, what frequency to change to, when to do it, and why. As the first xc flight, my instructor was pretty much telling me who to contact and what to say, so there wasn't really any confusion, but if I were to do it by myself, I wouldn't have the faintest idea was who to talk to. So, hypothetically speaking, if I were to do the following flight, KLVK-KCCR-KSTS-KCCR-KLVK, who would I talk to, what would I say, and why?

Are there any references I should check out to read up more on the subject. It's just all a bit confusing for me.

Thanks!!
 
Without looking at a chart of you route my first impulse is to say - assuming VFR flight and not in controlled airspace while between airports
1. listen/talk to the airport you departed until roughly half way to the next - you will be listening to either departure control or the tower/ctaf depending on type of airport.
2. At the roughly halfway point point dial up the ATIS for the next airport and listen to it. It likely will tell you the approach control or CTAF frequency for arriving aircraft. Double check your chart. Then switch to that frequency. If it is approach control they will then send you to tower or departure depending on what yo are doing. Just do what the nice folks tell you.
If there is any confusion go to your chart and use the frequency shown for the nearest or next airport on your route.
Easy peasy
Have fun
 
I'm a little concerned. Why was this question not posed to your instructor during your post-flight brief?
 
I'm going to presume you already know about 2 way communication for class delta, bravo, C. As you shouldn't be on a cross country if you don't.

For flight following here's a easy way to do it. Just get the approach frequency for the first airport

(it's on your sectional chart, you can also go here http://www.fltplan.com/AwMainToAirportSearch.exe?a=1 type in the airport ID and get it off the approach plate)

They will tell you the next frequency and so on.

Another tool you can use is Flight Watch, it's always 122.0, tell them where you are and ask for the freq for flight following. They can also get you enroute weather reports, metars, TAFs, sunset/sunrise etc.


Also try to get the weather through AWOS, ASOS, ATIS 10 miles or so before the airport, workload permitting.

If you can't get the weather, or if it's a really unfamiliar airport, overfly it 500' above the traffic pattern (so 1500AGL) and check out the conditions and windsock. You can also get a feel for the wind direction by comparing your AIRSPEED with your GPS GROUNDSPEED.
 
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OP. I am a student also in the middle of my XC work. It's part of the process, the reason your instructor flies with you the first time. When I did my first XC, it was the same for me, we had talked about radio work, but it was abstract because I hadn't seen it in the real world yet. When we made the flight, my instructor did the same as yours, telling me who to call and when. When I started planning my solo XC, my instructor went over all of it with me until I understood. Yours will too, relax. When ever you post a training question on the board, you will get a lot of answers, you will also get some negative stuff about why your instructor hasn't taught you this yet. And to answer your question Eddie, I have been taught to use 121.5. In an emergency. I don't have enough radios to monitor it while I'm flying. My instructor is teaching me to aviate, navigate and communicate (if I have time and if it can help) otherwise ignore the radio and fly the plane.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
mikeinbama said:
And to answer your question Eddie, I have been taught to use 121.5. In an emergency. I don't have enough radios to monitor it while I'm flying.
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If one only has one radio, it should be on an appropriate frequency.

But in the absence of a need to be on a particular frequency, the radio should be tuned to 121.5 per NOTAM:

FDC 4/4386 FDC SPECIAL NOTICE...ALL AIRCRAFT OPERATING IN UNITED STATES NATIONAL AIRSPACE, IF CAPABLE, SHALL MAINTAIN A LISTENING WATCH ON VHF GUARD 121.5 OR UHF 243.0.

If I'm not talking to ATC for flight following or on Unicom or whatever, my one radio always goes to 121.5. One can parse "if capable" a lot of different ways, but I think the NOTAM is pretty clear.

I was just wondering how consistent flight instructors are in teaching this to students. Lots of pilots seem unaware of what I read as a requirement.
 
Flight following
Approach
Tower
Ground

Clearance delivery
Ground
Tower
Departure
Flight following
 
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vkhosid said:
Hey guys,
.......................................
So, hypothetically speaking, if I were to do the following flight, KLVK-KCCR-KSTS-KCCR-KLVK, who would I talk to, what would I say, and why?
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Your sectional chart should tell you who to call and where, presumably your instructor will go over this with you before he sends you off solo. As for what to say, the standard on initial call-up is tell 'em --> who you are, where you are & what you wanna' do :)
 
Look at the sectional if you need to talk to someone,the freq will be on the chart. The easier way is to request flight following,the controllers will do the work for you.
 
I could echo what Mike said. I think he and I are on parallel paths right now. :)

One thing I did before my first solo XC was to write down all the radio calls and responses in the order I expected them. Just the exercise of putting that together helped me a lot in being ready to do it in real life. It didn't happen 100% the way I wrote it, but it was very close. I'll post it here in case it helps someone else. This is from KSUT to KFLO and back again.

  • Contact Myrtle Beach Approach (119.2) when north of Ocean Isle Beach
    • State location, altitude, destination, and request flight following
    • Myrtle Beach Approach will assign transponder code
    • Myrtle Beach Approach will hand off to Florence Approach (118.6)
  • Listen to Florence ATIS (123.625)
  • Contact Florence Approach (118.6)
    • State inbound at altitude with ATIS code, request full stop taxi back and return to SUT at 3,500
    • Florence Approach will hand off to Florence Tower (125.1)
  • Contact Florence Tower (125.1)
    • Florence Tower will assign runway
    • Florence Tower will clear to land
----------------------------------
  • Contact Florence Ground (121.9) [with ATIS code]
    • Florence Ground will assign transponder code and departure runway
    • Florence Ground will provide Florence Departure (118.6) frequency
  • Once ready to take off, contact Florence Tower (125.1)
    • Florence Tower will clear for takeoff
    • Florence Tower will hand off to Florence Departure (118.6)
  • Contact Florence Departure (118.6)
    • Florence Departure will hand off to Myrtle Beach Approach (119.2)
  • Contact Myrtle Beach Approach (119.2)
    • State altitude
    • Myrtle Beach Approach will hand off to Wilmington Approach (118.25)
  • Contact Wilmington Approach (118.25)
    • State altitude
    • Inform Wilmington Approach when airport is in sight
    • Wilmington Approach will terminate radar service, squawk 1200
  • KSUT
    • Listen to AWOS (124.175)
    • Announce on CTAF (123.05)
Click to expand...
 
KennyC said:
I could echo what Mike said. I think he and I are on parallel paths right now. :)

One thing I did before my first solo XC was to write down all the radio calls and responses in the order I expected them. Just the exercise of putting that together helped me a lot in being ready to do it in real life. It didn't happen 100% the way I wrote it, but it was very close. I'll post it here in case it helps someone else. This is from KSUT to KFLO and back again.
Click to expand...

I did this EXACT same thing and went over it with my instructor, I still had something unexpected thrown at me, "say again, I don't understand that instruction, 91c".
 
KennyC said:
I could echo what Mike said. I think he and I are on parallel paths right now. :)

One thing I did before my first solo XC was to write down all the radio calls and responses in the order I expected them. Just the exercise of putting that together helped me a lot in being ready to do it in real life. It didn't happen 100% the way I wrote it, but it was very close. I'll post it here in case it helps someone else. This is from KSUT to KFLO and back again.
Click to expand...

Excellent! It would be great if more students/pilots did that preparation.

Bob Gardner
 
Jeez the last thing a student pilot on a xc needs to do is monitor 121.5. Hero complex anyone? As for the rest of it, depends where you fly, but you can pretty much talk to no one or find someone to talk to the whole time.
 
Brad Z said:
I'm a little concerned. Why was this question not posed to your instructor during your post-flight brief?
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:yeahthat: This is your instructor's job, so get your money's worth and ask your instructor. It will be a lot easier for you to learn this face-to-face with immediate 2-way communication and feedback over a chart than by typing questions and answers here. Further, this should have been thoroughly discussed before the flight, and then only the questions arising handled during post-flight.
 
This is something that the A/FD is good for, you'll usually find who does approach/departure control in there if the field has an instrument approach. Alternatively it may be on the sectional if there's class C/B airspace near by as a magenta box saying to contact xxx.yy within 20nm.

What Ron said is dead on, your instructor is there to teach the Why of flying more than the How but in general most primary students let them off the hook on that focusing on the How part
 

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ClimbnSink said:
Jeez the last thing a student pilot on a xc needs to do is monitor 121.5. Hero complex anyone? As for the rest of it, depends where you fly, but you can pretty much talk to no one or find someone to talk to the whole time.
Click to expand...

Well, other than the fact that it is required when possible . . .
 
IMO when possible includes crew workload. Now its very doable but looking back at my long XC, monitoring 121.5 was not in the cards.

Aviate, Navigate, Communicate. In that order, task shedding starts from the communication part and works its way to the left
 
FastEddieB said:
If one only has one radio, it should be on an appropriate frequency.

But in the absence of a need to be on a particular frequency, the radio should be tuned to 121.5 per NOTAM:

FDC 4/4386 FDC SPECIAL NOTICE...ALL AIRCRAFT OPERATING IN UNITED STATES NATIONAL AIRSPACE, IF CAPABLE, SHALL MAINTAIN A LISTENING WATCH ON VHF GUARD 121.5 OR UHF 243.0.

If I'm not talking to ATC for flight following or on Unicom or whatever, my one radio always goes to 121.5. One can parse "if capable" a lot of different ways, but I think the NOTAM is pretty clear.

I was just wondering how consistent flight instructors are in teaching this to students. Lots of pilots seem unaware of what I read as a requirement.
Click to expand...
We had 2 radios in the training aircraft, but the equipment varied between them and I was not comfortable switching things around. As a matter of fact, on my student solo XC, I decided to get fancy with the radios and use comm1 and comm2. By the time I arrived at my destination I created a lost comms situation for myself. I squawked 7600 and observed traffic flow and landed.

After I pulled off the runway, I then discovered that I turned down the comm1 volume which had the tower on it. He asked me to call a number, and I said to myself, "Oh (you know what else)" and radioed "roger".

I called the number and the tower operator commended me for following the light gun signals and obeying the clearance issued. Approach told him I was a student on soloXC. I thanked him and went on my way.

My point is that students often don't have the mental bandwidth for much beyond basics and asking for PIREPS or monitoring 121.5 may be a bit much. I'm not thumbing my nose at the FDC NOTAM, I'm sure they're well meaning people, but "if possible" is at PICs discretion (yes, I see it says capable vs possible) and giving more tasks doesn't do much for their confidence or competence.

And to close my anecdote: to this day, I ain't never seen no light gun signal.
 
ClimbnSink said:
Not possible cause I was busy picking my nose and listening to music.:D
Click to expand...

No that won't cut it. Picking your nose is necessary because of the sterile cockpit rule, but you're on your own for finding an excuse for the music.
 
airheadpenguin said:
IMO when possible includes crew workload.
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The word the FAA uses is "capable", not "possible". I take that to mean you have a radio available to do it. If you have no radio, or only one radio and you're working with ATC, you aren't "capable". Other than that, I see little or no choice remaining, and no FAA sympathy if you miss a call on 121.5 which would have kept you out of hot water because you chose for whatever reason not to use a radio not otherwise in use for ATC or similar purposes to monitor that frequency.

And yes, my proximity to the DC SFRA and the number of times I've heard two or three warning calls without effect prior to an airspace bust has a lot to do with that.
 
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Ron, the situation you describe makes this the reasonable and prudent thing to do. Add to that most people use com 2 as ATIS and other ancillary stuff so having it on 121.5 is easy since you can flip flop it back and forth. My point is more about task saturation during an activity which is (IMO) supposed to be a learning experience rather than going flawlessly.
 
airheadpenguin said:
Ron, the situation you describe makes this the reasonable and prudent thing to do. Add to that most people use com 2 as ATIS and other ancillary stuff so having it on 121.5 is easy since you can flip flop it back and forth. My point is more about task saturation during an activity which is (IMO) supposed to be a learning experience rather than going flawlessly.
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I don't see how having a radio tuned to 121.5 is going to saturate anyone's attention limits, and I think it's important that they learn to do that as a regular part of their flying -- right from the first flight.
 
I'll invoke the Law of Primacy here*.

If a student isn't taught to monitor 121.5 "when capable" from the beginning, he or she is less likely to pick up the habit later.

Perhaps one reason I find a lot of pilots either totally unaware of the NOTAM, or just not in the habit.

Simple instruction to a student, "Anytime you're not talking with anyone or monitoring another frequency, just go to 121.5 and monitor it."

Not to mention the instructor should have been demonstrating it on cross countries all along.

That simple frequency change and monitoring really should not overload a student, IMHO, and reinforces a good practice.


*I see Cap'n Ron beat me to it, in so many words.
 
But, in that airspace, he should be in contact with NorCal.

It's Class E, but there is a lot of inbound traffic to the Bay Area there. And everybody and there mother uses the practice area north of Lake Del Valle.

To Greg, the point of 121.5 isn't to be a hero. It's so ATC can get ahold of you if needed. Aside from the obvious Class B and C, there is also LLNL and the Alameda County bomb range (restricted airspace), plus the occasional TFR.
 
If you are worried about that stuff and there are places to be worried get flight following.
 
MAKG1 said:
To Greg, the point of 121.5 isn't to be a hero. It's so ATC can get ahold of you if needed.
Click to expand...
Not just ATC -- also the military folks who monitor security TFR's and conduct intercepts of aircraft penetrating security areas.
Aside from the obvious Class B and C, there is also LLNL and the Alameda County bomb range (restricted airspace), plus the occasional TFR.
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Exactly. It's a lot nicer when someone hears those warnings and turns away than it is when you hear several warnings followed by "Aircraft ten miles east of Dulles, 2000 feet, squawking 1200, heading 180, speed 110 knots you are being intercepted by armed military aircraft..." :nonod:
 
Ron Levy said:
It's a lot nicer when someone hears those warnings and turns away than it is when you hear several warnings followed by "Aircraft ten miles east of Dulles, 2000 feet, squawking 1200, heading 180, speed 110 knots you are being intercepted by armed military aircraft..." :nonod:
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Means somebody (not just the guy doing 110KTAS) screwed the pooch, as that aircraft is already in the FRZ (perhaps heading to P-73 for sightseeing).:D
 
Add'l reasons to do as the FAA requests (re:monitoring 121.5)..

1) When the engine in my Sky Arrow suddenly got vey rough over south Georgia, after the obligatory "deer in the headlights" moment, I found the least bad spot to glide to over a heavily forested area, futzed with the carb heat and stuff and just had to push my "XMIT" button. And said "EMERGENCY" and gave my position. Not having to fumble with one's radio in an emergency is one less distractor.

As an aside, the power did restore, and after speaking with ATC on the ground no report was necessary.

2) On a recent flight back from Gainesville, GA, an ELT signal broke squelch pretty much over Dahlonega airport, and I reported it to ATC. Admittedly, most such signals are false alarms, but on rare occasions they are not and your report may just be the first. And just possibly make a difference in getting help to a pilot in distress. With 121.5 being officially monitored less and less, if at all, it's helpful if pilots can aid in filling that gap for now

Of course, the first scenario is also covered by being on flight following. But not everyone always wishes to choose that option for whatever reason.

Finally, the "hero complex" comment took me a while to process. Just sounded dumb, and I had to reach to discern what the author might be trying to imply. Following FAA recommendations or requirements, or teaching proper procedures to a student means one has a "hero complex"? Then I noted who the author was, which helped me put it in perspective. If you get what I'm sayin'!
 
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Guys, I appreciate all the advice. To answer the main question of "why didn't you ask your instructor before/during/after the flight"...the simple answer is that these questions came to me when I was driving back home and processing the flight and the steps in my head. While planning/flying/etc, I was too concerned with doing everything I was supposed to, and the "why" part really didn't come to me. Now that I have a chance to think about it, I'd like to know what SHOULD/COULD/MUST be done and who NEEDS/SHOULD/COULD/WOULD be contacted...and when...and now that I can process it without worrying about my heading/altitude/etc, the "why" as well.

And as I said in the original post, hypothetically speaking, if I were flying from KLVK-KCCR-KSTS, and back....who would I contact, what frequencies would I listen to, and why?

Thanks again!
 
Jaybird180 said:
Means somebody (not just the guy doing 110KTAS) screwed the pooch, as that aircraft is already in the FRZ (perhaps heading to P-73 for sightseeing).:D
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The pooch ain't screwed until you actually enter the airspace, and they start making warning calls several minutes before that happens. That's the whole point here -- hearing the warning that you are approaching the airspace rather than having your first inkling that you've done something wrong being an armed military aircraft pulling up on your wing or a law enforcement officer meeting you on landing.
 
vkhosid said:
Guys, I appreciate all the advice. To answer the main question of "why didn't you ask your instructor before/during/after the flight"...the simple answer is that these questions came to me when I was driving back home and processing the flight and the steps in my head. While planning/flying/etc, I was too concerned with doing everything I was supposed to, and the "why" part really didn't come to me.
Click to expand...
It should never have gotten that far. Since your instructor clearly contemplated flight where radar service would be used, s/he should have covered that in the preflight briefing without having to be asked. IOW, I'm thinking you have an instructor more interested in building flight time than in providing training, and that may be an issue you need to address with your instructor and/or his/her boss.
 
So..maybe your instructor is planning to coach you or have you figure out these questions on the next dual x/c. You're not endorsed for solo x/c yet, right?
 
nosehair said:
So..maybe your instructor is planning to coach you or have you figure out these questions on the next dual x/c. You're not endorsed for solo x/c yet, right?
Click to expand...

I am endorsed...but only with prior approval of the flight plan by the CFI
 
vkhosid said:
And as I said in the original post, hypothetically speaking, if I were flying from KLVK-KCCR-KSTS, and back....who would I contact, what frequencies would I listen to, and why?
Click to expand...

Crack open the Green Book.

Livermore uses NorCal for approach. Frequency is in the book (and it happens to be the same frequency in the magenta boxes for Oakland on the TAC).

Concord uses Travis. Again, in the book. You can also find it in the TAC about the Travis alert area. The frequency switches over the Travis runways.

Santa Rosa uses Oakland Center. Once again, in the book.

It's all done by handoff from Livermore. However, neither Concord nor Santa Rosa will give you flight following from the ground. When outside Class D (or earlier if you ask for and receive permission for a frequency change), contact Travis or Oakland and make your FF request. You can ask Tower for the frequency, but it's bad form. It's all in the A/FD.

That's not 150 miles total. Might want to talk to your instructor about planning your long cross country.
 
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MAKG1 said:
Crack open the Green Book.

Livermore uses NorCal for approach. Frequency is in the book (and it happens to be the same frequency in the magenta boxes for Oakland on the TAC).

Concord uses Travis. Again, in the book. You can also find it in the TAC about the Travis alert area. The frequency switches over the Travis runways.

Santa Rosa uses Oakland Center. Once again, in the book.

It's all done by handoff from Livermore. However, neither Concord nor Santa Rosa will give you flight following from the ground. When outside Class D (or earlier if you ask for and receive permission for a frequency change), contact Travis or Oakland and make your FF request. You can ask Tower for the frequency, but it's bad form. It's all in the A/FD.

That's not 150 miles total. Might want to talk to your instructor about planning your long cross country.
Click to expand...


Where would one pick up an A/FD for the southwest region in PDF form?
 
vkhosid said:
Where would one pick up an A/FD for the southwest region in PDF form?
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faa.gov . It's not the whole thing, but rather each individual airport.

These are not hard to get ahold of printed and not very expensive, and you really need one in your flight bag.

Virtually every flying club has these for sale. Cheap. If they don't, ask your flight instructor for some landing lessons at Reid, park in transient parking, and walk the block to the Pilot Shoppe (it's at Cunningham & Capitol). But I think you'll find it locally really easily.
 
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MAKG1 said:
faa.gov . It's not the whole thing, but rather each individual airport.

These are not hard to get ahold of printed and not very expensive, and you really need one in your flight bag.
Click to expand...

I figured as much...but thought that I could download and print it out while at work...
 
vkhosid said:
I figured as much...but thought that I could download and print it out while at work...
Click to expand...

Unless your work can print out half-size pages, that's going to be really inconvenient on a kneeboard.

And I think you may be setting yourself up for the aviation equivalent of 52-card pick-up.
 
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