WWYD?

Groundpounder

Groundpounder

En-Route
Joined
Jan 27, 2013
Messages
2,951
Location
New Hampshire
Display Name
Display name:
Emerson Bigguns
Which panel is better, and why? I think I know what a lot of you are going to say, but we shall see....

Option #1:

GFC 500
G5 ADI and HSI
GTN650
GNC255
GTX345

Option #2

KFC200
Aspen 1000 Pro Max
Single G5 for backup
IFD540
KX-165
GTX345
 
I would go with Option 1 but with the IFD 540.
 
I have a modified option 1. With a 530/430 and the GMA350c and we are very happy. It was a process and done over three years. Our thoughts were that Garmin stack no integration issue but realistically we are dealing with new and old. Having just spend a chunk of change to get the GFC500 I don't think the partners will go for a 750/650 change anytime soon.
 
Picture yourself at KATL, waiting on a passenger, and deciding to do a software upgrade, next thing you know your grounded and multiple manufacturers are pointing their finger at each other for the blame.

I call it the end game.

It sounds like you have a KFC 200 tied to some legacy equipment and are looking for a path forward, If I was going to step forward methodically with an end game, I would evaluate the condition of the autopilot, the KFC 200 is a formidable system and, for the time being, is repairable. An Aspen would do wonders while you work thru the navigator upgrades, then sell it when you make the final step with the GFC and G5, the CAN technology is superior to anything I've seen lately...

Look toward a single manufactures suite of equipment, I would never recommend assuming multiple manufacturers will play well together.
 
Jesse Saint said:
I would go with Option 1 but with the IFD 540.
Click to expand...

Or the GTN 750. Having more screen space it good. Plus it's easier to enter your flight plan on a bigger screen, more room for a better keyboard. Or Flightstream option so you could send the flightplan over from your iPad app.

I agree with others that all Garmin is nicer for limiting the finger pointing between vendors on where the issue is.
 
Not doing a GTN750. Way too much money for what it is, IMHO.

I'm hoping to avoid the bit by bit panel upgrade, I don't want to spend the extra money on labor each time they have to open the panel up. But doing everything want at one time is going to be expensive. The KFC-200 is kind of the ticking time bomb, less and less shops are working on them, and parts are super expensive.

Maybe I will win powerball....
 
Groundpounder said:
Not doing a GTN750. Way too much money for what it is, IMHO.

I'm hoping to avoid the bit by bit panel upgrade, I don't want to spend the extra money on labor each time they have to open the panel up. But doing everything want at one time is going to be expensive. The KFC-200 is kind of the ticking time bomb, less and less shops are working on them, and parts are super expensive.

Maybe I will win powerball....
Click to expand...


I advise people, most assuredly, how to base the end game with the autopilot in mind.

You have the "band-aid" approach, tearing it all off at once, not ill advised.

You can efficiently "step" thru the process with the right approach. The KFC 200 is being phased out, this means many parts are flooding the market. I just spoke with a client that purchased a replacement KI 256 for $200, serial number in the mid 20,000's, this will bide them a bit more time while they upgrade the other aspects of their system.

Diving into an upgrade, I have observed, is either a great experience, or a nightmare.

Look at this as an endgame, think about it as three building blocks that comprises the suite, the navigation, the instrumentation, and ultimately, the flight control system.

Depending on the failures being dealt with, move forward with the other "blocks" in mind. Much of the labor of multiple phases of upgrades can be minimized with some preplanning for the endgame.

Is the autopilot malfunctioning at this time?
 
What do you have right now?

I'd go with option 1 mainly because I'm sick of King. I've not had good service from them at all, and I've poured more money into my KFC than it would have cost to just get a GFC500 had they been available at the time. And they want $9600 for an overhaul exchange trim servo. Ridiculous.

I did get my remaining KX-165 rebuilt a couple years ago, had all the electrolytic capacitors replaced with new and the board cleaned up from those that were already leaking. If you run a KX-155 or 165 until it stops working, you'll likely find that it's not economical to repair. I think we'll probably replace the 165 with a GNC255 at our next upgrade just to get rid of all the old worn-out components and save some panel space.
 
Bob Weber said:
I advise people, most assuredly, how to base the end game with the autopilot in mind.

You have the "band-aid" approach, tearing it all off at once, not ill advised.

You can efficiently "step" thru the process with the right approach. The KFC 200 is being phased out, this means many parts are flooding the market. I just spoke with a client that purchased a replacement KI 256 for $200, serial number in the mid 20,000's, this will bide them a bit more time while they upgrade the other aspects of their system.

Diving into an upgrade, I have observed, is either a great experience, or a nightmare.

Look at this as an endgame, think about it as three building blocks that comprises the suite, the navigation, the instrumentation, and ultimately, the flight control system.

Depending on the failures being dealt with, move forward with the other "blocks" in mind. Much of the labor of multiple phases of upgrades can be minimized with some preplanning for the endgame.

Is the autopilot malfunctioning at this time?
Click to expand...

No, its working fine right now, but I know at some point it is going to stop, and when it does, its going to be expensive to get it going again. The smart thing to do would be to ride it out till the end of its life. You do raise some good points.

flyingcheesehead said:
What do you have right now?

I'd go with option 1 mainly because I'm sick of King. I've not had good service from them at all, and I've poured more money into my KFC than it would have cost to just get a GFC500 had they been available at the time. And they want $9600 for an overhaul exchange trim servo. Ridiculous.

I did get my remaining KX-165 rebuilt a couple years ago, had all the electrolytic capacitors replaced with new and the board cleaned up from those that were already leaking. If you run a KX-155 or 165 until it stops working, you'll likely find that it's not economical to repair. I think we'll probably replace the 165 with a GNC255 at our next upgrade just to get rid of all the old worn-out components and save some panel space.
Click to expand...

KFC-200
G530W
KX-165
KMA-24 audio panel

GTX345 and a G5 HSI are getting installed as we speak, along with a removal of the ADF and an inop M3 GPS. The thinking is a year from now installing enough glass to remove the vacuum system, and replace the GPS and the audio panel. If shes going under the knife for that much work, it would make sense to do a new A/P at the same time, but we're getting into some big money at that point.

It would also be nice to get rid of the KFC-200 flight computer that is behind the aft bulkhead, and improve the CG of our airplane, along with increasing the useful load.
 
Groundpounder said:
KFC-200
G530W
KX-165
KMA-24 audio panel

GTX345 and a G5 HSI are getting installed as we speak, along with a removal of the ADF and an inop M3 GPS. The thinking is a year from now installing enough glass to remove the vacuum system, and replace the GPS and the audio panel. If shes going under the knife for that much work, it would make sense to do a new A/P at the same time, but we're getting into some big money at that point.
Click to expand...

Maybe so, but you don't have a good option for getting rid of your vacuum system and keeping the KFC-200 (and I'm in the same boat with my KFC-150). There are only four ways to provide the necessary attitude input to the KFC-200:

1) The existing KI-256 attitude indicator (vacuum powered)
2) An Aspen Pro 1000 *with* the EA-100 adapter
3) A Garmin G500 or G500 TXi with the GAD-43e adapter
4) The KI-300 plus the KA-310 adapter.

Obviously, you can't keep the KI-256 and get rid of your vacuum system. IMO, Aspen is quite a bit behind the curve now and I'm not confident in their ability to provide support and upgrades long-term, so I've ruled them out. The G500 TXi is quite expensive, especially when the relatively similar G3X Touch is available for $5K less - Might as well put that $5K toward the GFC500 autopilot instead. Heck, for the price of a G500 TXi, you can probably install the GFC-500 with a G5. Finally, you'll have to check on whether the KI-300 and KA-310 are both certified for your airplane. For mine (M20R), they have the KI-300 certified but not the (required) KA-310! (Facepalm.) And in any case, I'm trying to get King stuff OUT of my airplane, not put in more.

So, while it is bigger money to put in a GFC-500, it's well worth it IMO compared with the available options to get rid of the vacuum system but keep the KFC-200 running.

It would also be nice to get rid of the KFC-200 flight computer that is behind the aft bulkhead, and improve the CG of our airplane, along with increasing the useful load.
Click to expand...

We got 25 pounds of useful load back on the first half of our upgrade. I'm expecting at least that much when we do the autopilot and the rest of the panel.
 
Groundpounder said:
Which panel is better, and why? I think I know what a lot of you are going to say, but we shall see....

Option #1:

GFC 500
G5 ADI and HSI
GTN650
GNC255
GTX345
Click to expand...

What about:
GFC 500
G5 ADI and HSI
2X- GNC255A’s
GNX-375 WAAS GPS / ADS-B Transponder

I have a buddy who just took this approach. Looks and works awesome. GPS’s change faster than radios. Two GNC-255a’s give a lifetime of dual nav/com.
 
Last edited:
NordicDave said:
What about:
GFC 500
G5 ADI and HSI
2X- GNC255A’s
GNX-375 WAAS GPS / ADS-B Transponder

I have a buddy who just took this approach. Looks and works awesome. GPS’s change faster than radios. Two GNC-255a’s give a lifetime of dual nav/com.
Click to expand...

That isn't a bad idea, but we'd probably do a GPS 175 since we have a GTX-345 going into the panel already.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top