WTF has happened to my Country

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Can governments ever be the enemy? And if so, could ours ever be the enemy?

Absolutely, but I think there is an important distinction between could be the the enemy and IS the enemy.

Could be means that citizens have the ability to PROTECT themselves in an uprising. IS the enemy means I need to go eliminate the enemy to protect myself.
 
I was hoping it would stay about "why this stuff was happening" But ? it seems it never does here.
It never does which is why management added a spin zone. And why it disappeared as well.
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The US does not have guilty by mental defect, which most felonious "victims" seem to be. If we could just jail some of these people for the rest of their natural life, we would be a whole lot better off. Too bad it osts so damned much a year to keep a felon behind bars. I submit you have to have a mental defect to commit crimes against society.
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The sheriff of Mariposa County has it right. Treat them as they really are. Not some highly privileged class but the lowest scum they are. Feed them pb&j on cheap white. And while you're at it, take all the refuse from all over the country and make a few bucks for your ounty.
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A felon should be treated as such. No rights until they have satisfied society's payback. No tv. No a/c. No congical visits. B&B, or enough to keep them alive.
 
Absolutely, but I think there is an important distinction between could be the the enemy and IS the enemy.

Could be means that citizens have the ability to PROTECT themselves in an uprising. IS the enemy means I need to go eliminate the enemy to protect myself.
If fences and locks keep honest folks honest, then a well armed citizenry will keep an honest government honest. The problem with any gun control measures are, they just can not work. The only option that "might" work is confiscation. This is the cold. Hard. Truth. There are too many guns, the genie is already out of the bottle.

Eta.. I don't mean I believe that there are too many guns, I mean there are too many for any control measure to work. It just ain't happening.
 
And yet we enable sick individuals to take multiple lives quickly because we allow assault weapons to be sold. So if we really don't want attacks like this happening, then we need to do something about it.
Without a total ban - including the weapons in all of the militaries, totally disarming only the civilian population only makes them more vulnerable to bigger scale tyranny, not less.
 
Absolutely, but I think there is an important distinction between could be the the enemy and IS the enemy.

Could be means that citizens have the ability to PROTECT themselves in an uprising. IS the enemy means I need to go eliminate the enemy to protect myself.
I'd be interested to press a little further with some questions, but the format here limits the discussion. In general, I appreciate your answers. Although we probably disagree over this topic, you seem to have a reasonable position. It's a better conversation when the emotion is left out of it, but that can be pretty tough to do.
 
Could be since "original intent" is a purely political creation.
No it's not. If I create a will, write in it simple statements, and write a letter to my kids explaining why I said what I said, anyone re-interpreting my will and twisting it on it's head is not respecting the intent of what I wrote. The authors of the Constitution and the Bill of Rights did write - extensively - about what they did and their intent is clear. Re-interpreting it is disgraceful and those who bash original intent are either blindingly ignorant or willful idiots.
 
Bump firing is not the same as using a bump fire stock. Your're not firing from the hip. With a little practice, you can be pretty darn accurate. Which makes it a very lethal weapon, much more so than the afore mentioned 12ga.
Or your Winchester.

I dont think bump firiring or bump-fire stocks have been an issue in any of the recent rampage shootings. Another feelgood 'do something' measure.

Btw. the Navy Yard shooter was armed with a single 12Ga shotgun (he later took a handgun off a guard that he killed). The problem are people, not things.
 
And yet we enable sick individuals to take multiple lives quickly because we allow assault weapons to be sold. So if we really don't want attacks like this happening, then we need to do something about it.

Not to be offensive, but this shows a distinct lack of firearms knowledge. Semi-automatic center-fire rifles (and lever action also, which are never mentioned) have been around since the late 1890s. That technology is seriously old news in firearms design.

What changed wasn't that the rifle or the abilities of the rifle changed, but that they became politicized after almost 70 years of private ownership by modern politicians.

This tech is so old your great-grandfather could have owned it. It wouldn't be made of plastic, but it would be available in wood. Cheap. Your grandfather used it on the beaches of Normandy. It's not new and it's not any more deadly than it ever was.

Most infantry in WWII was given a few hours of training and could fire the venerable M1 Garand at rates of fire nearly equaling a modern non-select-fire (so called "automatic") AR or AK. 18 year olds with no prior combat experience and only their fear of being shot by a German or a Japanese soldier at their motivation.

Anyone hell bent on killing people can fire anything fast enough to make the difference between whatever they're using and a so-called "assault" rifle, truly meaningless.

And it's been that way since 1896 or so.

Oh, bump shooting lol!

That used to be fun as a kid, we'd do it with my buddies AK47, could also do it with most any semi auto, frankly aside from blowing lots of ammo it doesn't have much real world use.

If I were going to get in shootout, and the other guy could only bump fire his weapon, I'd happily go up against a AR15 with a 100round drum, with my 7 round 1894, I'd also feel sorry for him, as he'd be channeling his inner tony montaina, making lots of noise but not hitting much, I'd just slowly chamber a round, aim and squeeze.


Bump firing, ahh back when I was young and 7.62 was cheap enough to waste like that.

This. ^^ Anyone can learn to bump fire a rifle in about five minutes. No special stock or anything else needed. Firing a rifle that fast with a 100 round drum hanging from it is completely spray and pray, it's too heavy to shoulder correctly. With a smaller magazine, even 30 rounds, the rate of fire vs accuracy between shouldering it and aiming properly and bump firing it leans toward using it "properly" as being significantly more "deadly" than someone bump firing.

The dumber the shooter, and the more they think useless crap like a bump stock helps them, the better for anyone in their line of fire, honestly. Muzzle rise, overheating, malfunctions caused by cheap drum magazines leading to jams, inability to shoulder or support the thing properly -- all work in the favor of the victim in a cold hard calculation of the matter. It's a ***** to shoot a rifle with all that cheap crap hanging from it.

The above makes no sense to anyone who doesn't shoot. They think it's like Hollywood and Rambo shooting from the hip takes down an individual with every pull of the trigger. It just doesn't work that way in real life.

Watching the video of the Dallas shooter I saw what I've been worried about for some time, and the stuff they found in his apartment confirmed it. He TRAINED. And then grabbed an old venerable SKS and used it and the training to walk up and execute people. He wasn't a "sniper". He was a murderer. And he didn't just train on how to shoot. He trained in how to move. Combat techniques.

One commentator who is a
Police firearms trainer said he saw things the guy did that he wished he could get Officers to do consistently to save their lives.

It doesn't take an "assault rifle" to harm many many people. It takes a relatively small amount of training and much less practice time than we require of people earning Private pilot's certificates. Put in as much time as the average Private pilot has the day they pass the checkride, you're going to be extremely hazardous to anyone.

Case in point: Someone will probably have to send a robot with a bomb to take you out, when you know about how to use cover effectively to nullify a threat twenty to thirty times your size. Because they will not be able to get to you.

I always hear people say when they misinterpret the preamble of the Second that they really prefer that well-regulated (which meant well-trained back then and well-disciplined) militia instead of a yahoo with a gun.

No. You really really don't. The world record for 12 rounds from a revolver stands at just about three seconds. Including a reload.

Magazine size? Who cares? Just carry two firearms. Fastest reload you've ever seen.

Firearms have been cheap fast accurate technology for over 100 years. It's the operator, not the firearm, and the operators willingness to do whatever it takes to kill.
 
None...and I believe in an armed electorate and individual gun ownership. I do not however believe that as a basis and reason for that gun ownership we need those arms as protection FROM the government as a some can preach. The danger lies not in gun ownership among the population, but in that the notion that Government is the enemy mentality which can lead to the fear and ultimate rationale for an individual to perform an event like Dallas.

Now not only are those notions not debunked or put in check by rational people when expressed, they are fostered and encouraged unchecked in today's social media and sensationalism media society with impunity.
What kind of government would face the electorate on a battle field? Do you really believe that any form of government could kill tens of thousands of armed citizens and survive?
 
Not to be offensive, but this shows a distinct lack of firearms knowledge. Semi-automatic center-fire rifles (and lever action also, which are never mentioned) have been around since the late 1890s. That technology is seriously old news in firearms design.

What changed wasn't that the rifle or the abilities of the rifle changed, but that they became politicized after almost 70 years of private ownership by modern politicians.

This tech is so old your great-grandfather could have owned it. It wouldn't be made of plastic, but it would be available in wood. Cheap. Your grandfather used it on the beaches of Normandy. It's not new and it's not any more deadly than it ever was.

Most infantry in WWII was given a few hours of training and could fire the venerable M1 Garand at rates of fire nearly equaling a modern non-select-fire (so called "automatic") AR or AK. 18 year olds with no prior combat experience and only their fear of being shot by a German or a Japanese soldier at their motivation.

Anyone hell bent on killing people can fire anything fast enough to make the difference between whatever they're using and a so-called "assault" rifle, truly meaningless.

And it's been that way since 1896 or so.



This. ^^ Anyone can learn to bump fire a rifle in about five minutes. No special stock or anything else needed. Firing a rifle that fast with a 100 round drum hanging from it is completely spray and pray, it's too heavy to shoulder correctly. With a smaller magazine, even 30 rounds, the rate of fire vs accuracy between shouldering it and aiming properly and bump firing it leans toward using it "properly" as being significantly more "deadly" than someone bump firing.

The dumber the shooter, and the more they think useless crap like a bump stock helps them, the better for anyone in their line of fire, honestly. Muzzle rise, overheating, malfunctions caused by cheap drum magazines leading to jams, inability to shoulder or support the thing properly -- all work in the favor of the victim in a cold hard calculation of the matter. It's a ***** to shoot a rifle with all that cheap crap hanging from it.

The above makes no sense to anyone who doesn't shoot. They think it's like Hollywood and Rambo shooting from the hip takes down an individual with every pull of the trigger. It just doesn't work that way in real life.

Watching the video of the Dallas shooter I saw what I've been worried about for some time, and the stuff they found in his apartment confirmed it. He TRAINED. And then grabbed an old venerable SKS and used it and the training to walk up and execute people. He wasn't a "sniper". He was a murderer. And he didn't just train on how to shoot. He trained in how to move. Combat techniques.

One commentator who is a
Police firearms trainer said he saw things the guy did that he wished he could get Officers to do consistently to save their lives.

It doesn't take an "assault rifle" to harm many many people. It takes a relatively small amount of training and much less practice time than we require of people earning Private pilot's certificates. Put in as much time as the average Private pilot has the day they pass the checkride, you're going to be extremely hazardous to anyone.

Case in point: Someone will probably have to send a robot with a bomb to take you out, when you know about how to use cover effectively to nullify a threat twenty to thirty times your size. Because they will not be able to get to you.

I always hear people say when they misinterpret the preamble of the Second that they really prefer that well-regulated (which meant well-trained back then and well-disciplined) militia instead of a yahoo with a gun.

No. You really really don't. The world record for 12 rounds from a revolver stands at just about three seconds. Including a reload.

Magazine size? Who cares? Just carry two firearms. Fastest reload you've ever seen.

Firearms have been cheap fast accurate technology for over 100 years. It's the operator, not the firearm, and the operators willingness to do whatever it takes to kill.

Hell, a .22 single shot will kill you just as dead.
But that doesn't seem to be the weapon of choice for the untrained amature killers who conduct the mass killings of innocents. They seem to want weapons that can kill a lot of people fast. Most are pretty dumb shooters.
 
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a 9mm with a 17 round magazine will do lots of damage.....just as much as if not more than an AR or SKS.

someone who is proficient can drop and reload a magazine in a sec or so. I see very little difference in lethality.

It's the evil people....stupid, not the equipment.
 
a 9mm with a 17 round magazine will do lots of damage..
SO,,,, What does this have to do with what is happening in our country? Has it come to a point that when we talk problems we talk guns?
 
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