Wrong way pattern

JohnWF said:
A fellow pilot just called me and said that as he was in the pattern at our local airport (left pattern is standard here) that another plane insisted on using a RIGHT pattern at the same time for the same runway. After avoiding a collusion my friend talked to the right pattern pilot who insisted that since it is an uncontrolled airport he is authorized to fly any pattern he wants to. My friend said that the right pattern pilot was adamant and somewhat obnoxious about what he could do if he wanted to.

My friend asked me what he might have done. I suggested the he should have taken the other fellow's N-number, called the FAA Flight Standard office in Denver, and have them contact the other fellow. Let the right pattern pilot educate the FAA about what he can/cannot do.

Comments?
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Walk up to the dude on the ground, look him in the eyes and ask him, "You know you're an idiot, right?".
 
Hank S said:
Just practice at a nearby non-towered field. You should have a choice of several within 30 nm.
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And every one of them on the wrong side of Class B from me.
 
hmmm, well I just got my tail feathers whacked.
So, somewhere between ground school in the 1950's and now they changed LH pattern from recommended to compulsory without telling me.
Darn, I hate it when they do that to me.
My mind set was also altered by frequent RH patterns due to parallel runways.

They recently did the annual mosquito bombing for Saginaw County from my airport (every year). I happened to be there the first day and the FSDO inspector was there about something or other Anyway, he didn't seem to bat an eye over the crop dusters coming straight in from tree top level on 090 and departing straight out on 270. Now maybe if they had flown a RH pattern, eh?
 
Dr. O said:
hmmm, well I just got my tail feathers whacked.
So, somewhere between ground school in the 1950's and now they changed LH pattern from recommended to compulsory without telling me.
Darn, I hate it when they do that to me.
My mind set was also altered by frequent RH patterns due to parallel runways.

They recently did the annual mosquito bombing for Saginaw County from my airport (every year). I happened to be there the first day and the FSDO inspector was there about something or other Anyway, he didn't seem to bat an eye over the crop dusters coming straight in from tree top level on 090 and departing straight out on 270. Now maybe if they had flown a RH pattern, eh?
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Ag Aircraft operate under Pt-137, give it a read...;)
 
Dr. O said:
hmmm, well I just got my tail feathers whacked.
So, somewhere between ground school in the 1950's and now they changed LH pattern from recommended to compulsory without telling me.
Darn, I hate it when they do that to me.
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They didn't do that to you. From CAR Part 60 Air Traffic Rules:

books


BTW, the AIM did not exist in the 1950s.

They recently did the annual mosquito bombing for Saginaw County from my airport (every year). I happened to be there the first day and the FSDO inspector was there about something or other Anyway, he didn't seem to bat an eye over the crop dusters coming straight in from tree top level on 090 and departing straight out on 270. Now maybe if they had flown a RH pattern, eh?
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Do you feel the inspector should have batted an eye over that?
 
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murphey said:
Go back and read Ron's comments and citations of Part 91.
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What has been discussed so far is that you can't make turns in the wrong direction, except at a towered field with ATC approval. In post #38, it sounded like you might be referring to more than that. If I misinterpreted your post, my bad.
 
murphey said:
Before FTG got the tower, I used to practice various emergency landings. But only when there wasn't traffic (or very little) and always announced exactly what I was doing, prefaced by the phrase "practicing emergency procedures".
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Announcing on CTAF what you are doing doesn't help the no-radio pilot sharing the airport with you if you fly the pattern in the wrong direction. So flying a right-hand pattern at a left-hand airport is still illegal no matter how many announcements you make on CTAF unless it is a bona fide emergency, not just training for one.
 
Dr. O said:
hmmm, well I just got my tail feathers whacked.
So, somewhere between ground school in the 1950's and now they changed LH pattern from recommended to compulsory without telling me.
Darn, I hate it when they do that to me.
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The rule has been that way since I started taking ground training in 1967, so you've been missing this point for almost 50 years, maybe more. Further, it's something that should be covered as part of the required review of the Part 91 general operating and flight rules on every flight review you've taken since they began some 40 years ago. So, either you haven't been paying attention for the last half century, or you've had a whole long string of less-than-conscientious flight instructors doing your flight reviews.
 
MAKG1 said:
Learn how to get around/through Class B.

Easy as pie, even at KLAX.
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I have zero doubt Murphy knows how to get around/though the Denver Class B.

KLAX is much easier. If you look at the difference in runway configuration and geographic area, it's easy to see why.
 
cheap weenie said:
So? Fly through it.
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Hahahahahahaha

I've gone through the Denver Bravo surface area five times in the past five years. Once while IFR, twice while between the hours of 1:30 and 5:30 in the morning and twice for touch-n-goes at DEN.

DEN Bravo clearances happen...usually when going north-south or vice-versa....rarely when going east-west or vice-versa. DEN surface area clearances are really rare these days.
 
Clark1961 said:
Hahahahahahaha

I've gone through the Denver Bravo surface area five times in the past five years. Once while IFR, twice while between the hours of 1:30 and 5:30 in the morning and twice for touch-n-goes at DEN.

DEN Bravo clearances happen...usually when going north-south or vice-versa....rarely when going east-west or vice-versa. DEN surface area clearances are really rare these days.
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Actually they do (or did). The question is where. As I suggested in response to MAKG's comment, a lot depends on the configuration of the airport and it's surrounding geography.

So, for example, clearances through when going N-S along the west side are relatively common for pretty much the same reason as they were able to cut it off along the west side. Traffic coming in from the west/or heading west needs to remain higher longer/get higher sooner due to the mountains, leaving a clear path at the lower Class B altitudes. OTOH, flights coming into/departing in the other directions can and do get/stay lower earlier/later, making our entry more problematic.

That said, I've gotten Class B clearances N-S along the east side, but pretty far out. Heading west into the mountains, I regularly asked for and received a Class B clearance to start my climb direct to Corona (Rollins) Pass as soon as I was out of KAPA's Class D.

Surface area is different. With the E-W and N-S runways having simultaneous operations it's much harder to find a space for us and I've only gotten those clearances when going into or coming out of KDEN itself. Although there were others, most have come during night cross country training flights in the summer.
 
bnt83 said:
So you have a newish student that has never flown a RH pattern before and the nearest deserted uncontrolled airport is LH patterns only, what are you to do???????
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Hi, Brian. a "newish student" should have already been taught by his cfi, turn's to the right and left before being allowed by his instructor to fly to an airport away from his home base. Hope this helps.
 
You should report the guy. There are no aviation police in the sky that are going to penalize some yahoo who doesn't know or follow the rules. This guy's practices and attitudes are dangerous to all of us and the only way to reduce that danger (short of talking to him which clearly didn't work) is to offer some kind of negative incentive to change his behavior.

Currently I see 2 options for negative incentives to modify his behavior

1) Social pressure- notifying friends and other pilots of his behavior may bring social sanctions to him, although I don't think this will be strong enough to change his ways.

2) Punitive action from authority - reporting him seems to be the only real choice and will probably help change his behavior in the future with regard to traffic patterns, although it may or may not help change his general attitude.
 
My last cross country 2 weeks ago:

1. Was approaching field just off FF with a Mooney also approaching faster. We were at the exact same DME 4.5 miles and 300 feet altitude difference (me higher). I broke off and climbed figuring he was under me somewhere.

2. Approach to land I call left base and as soon as I finish my call someone else keys up right base to same runway (left pattern). I broke that off as well.

In short, hopefully you can correct things before they become an issue, If not, see and avoid will hopefully work. All of my close calls in the past 550 hours have been in the airport environment.
 
I've seen people do a right downwind, right base, and final twice in the past couple months at airports with standard patterns. Both pilots said it was okay because they were practicing a VOR approach. One of them was using a VOR that's been NOTAMed out of service for 6 months. :nonod:
 
dmspilot said:
I've seen people do a right downwind, right base, and final twice in the past couple months at airports with standard patterns. Both pilots said it was okay because they were practicing a VOR approach. One of them was using a VOR that's been NOTAMed out of service for 6 months. :nonod:
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It IS OK to circle to land the "wrong way" if the IAP prohibits circling in the correct direction, at least under IFR (IMC is not required). Sometimes terrain or obstructions do that, and the tolerances are much larger for instrument approaches than for VFR.

Here is an example, for KTCY, which has all runways left traffic:
http://155.178.201.160/d-tpp/1410/05815VD26.PDF

Note the critical message "Circling NA southwest of rwy 12-30." The reason is obstructions in that direction, which are a factor at the circling minimums of 600 feet, but not at the normal pattern altitude at 1000. If you're landing on rwy 30, that means you have to circle into right traffic.

While that may not look like a huge turn in that case, it is in the wrong direction, and the same prohibition is on all the GPS approaches, including the one to 12: http://155.178.201.160/d-tpp/1410/05815R12.PDF . That makes for a right downwind entry as low as 600 feet, to a runway with left traffic.

Now, using a VOR NOTAMed inop is a no-no.
 
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roncachamp said:
They didn't do that to you. From CAR Part 60 Air Traffic Rules:

books
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Here at the blue board, we cull ancient documents to show you how wrong you are (and have been all these years). :nono:
 
PPC1052 said:
Can you fly the VOR approach using a GPS to identify the station location?
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Only if it's a "VOR or GPS" approach. Otherwise, per AIM 1-2-3c:
4. Pilots may not substitute for the NAVAID (for example, a VOR or NDB ) providing lateral guidance for the final approach segment. This restriction does not refer to instrument approach procedures with “or GPS” in the title when using GPS or WAAS. These allowances do not apply to procedures that are identified as not authorized (NA) without exception by a NOTAM, as other conditions may still exist and result in a procedure not being available. For example, these allowances do not apply to a procedure associated with an expired or unsatisfactory flight inspection, or is based upon a recently decommissioned NAVAID.
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