wrong class asel ases

U

Unregistered

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pp asel in 86
bought a floatplane and got instruction in it early 90s
im at 1200 hours in it mostly hauling the kids

never seen a fsdo inspector at any of the seaports and never had problems
well my kids got kids now and one is my little flying buddy

she wants to go near bigger airports so i figure safer to get the rating

are there going to be legal problems at the practical when the inspector sees logs with years of seaplane hours?

is this something theyd take serious if i got ramp checked with only asel or just a fine or something?

i know other pilots around here been flying longer than i have who dont even have pp or medical but thats them . i want to know what to expect and what im in for when i try to make it right
 
Unregistered said:
pp asel in 86
bought a floatplane and got instruction in it early 90s
im at 1200 hours in it mostly hauling the kids

never seen a fsdo inspector at any of the seaports and never had problems
well my kids got kids now and one is my little flying buddy

she wants to go near bigger airports so i figure safer to get the rating

are there going to be legal problems at the practical when the inspector sees logs with years of seaplane hours?

is this something theyd take serious if i got ramp checked with only asel or just a fine or something?

i know other pilots around here been flying longer than i have who dont even have pp or medical but thats them . i want to know what to expect and what im in for when i try to make it right
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Out of curiosity....self insured?

I think you'd have an easier time explaining the seaplane time in your logbook with a DPE than to a FSDO guy doing a ramp check. You'd definitely get a fine, but probably lose your ticket too.

If you want the least amount of questions.....I'd go to Sheble in AZ to get the proper rating.


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Why the hell would you log time for a flight you knew wasn't legal?
 
Go get the rating. It makes absolutely no sense that you haven't done so, it's an extremely easy rating.
 
Sac Arrow said:
Why the hell would you log time for a flight you knew wasn't legal?
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Yeah, that....

I would be tempted to lose the logbook and replace it... of course that's not exactly ethical (or legal), so I'm not advising any course of action. :D
 
airguy said:
Yeah, that....

I would be tempted to lose the logbook and replace it... of course that's not exactly ethical (or legal), so I'm not advising any course of action. :D
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Then who flew the floatplane those 1200 hours if he / she was the sole owner?
 
First off, go get the rating for sure. Now let me relay a friend's story.

Buddy of mine flies skydivers. He got his PP-ASEL and eventually his CP-ASEL. Then the skydiving business needed a bigger plane, so he bought a Twin Bonanza and started flying the skydivers in it. About 800 hours of doing this later, his new boss (who assumed he had a multi rating) found out he didn't have the rating.

"You've been flying this for how long?!"
"About 800 hours worth."
"You dip****, you can't do that!"
"What do you mean I can't do that? I did it!"

Smart? Probably not the smartest thing he's ever done. Legal? Of course not. But he didn't crash, the FSDO never checked out the operation, so they had no problems. Pretty much the same as how you describe the past 20 years of your flight time.

He went and got his weekend multi rating in a Seneca which, as you might imagine, was a snap. You'd find the same.

He's never been questioned about it. It's really a non-issue. Why are you carrying around your logbook? It should never come up in a ramp check, and thus be a non-issue. I don't see OKC questioning anything on your 8710 provided you have the minimum hours required.

Go get the rating and make yourself legal. Shouldn't take you any effort at all. Then leave your logbook at home, where it belongs.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
Why are you carrying around your logbook? It should never come up in a ramp check, and thus be a non-issue. I don't see OKC questioning anything on your 8710 provided you have the minimum hours required.
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From a ramp check standpoint, I don't think the issue is the logbook, but the fact that he might be seen operating an ASES without the rating.




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Fearless Tower said:
From a ramp check standpoint, I don't think the issue is the logbook, but the fact that he might be seen operating an ASES without the rating.
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Yup. If they see you flying a seaplane and it only says ASEL on your ticket when they look at it, there's nothing you can say to stay out of trouble.

You have two viable options for how to avoid future trouble. One is to just get the rating. Go to one of those quickie ASES rating places, keep your mouth shut about your past experience, and don't report any ASES time on the 8710-1 other than the time toy get in the course. Then lose all your old logs with seaplane time. The other is to hire an aviation attorney to negotiate a deal for his/her anonymous client -- the FAA is usually happier with you if you do that than if they somehow find out about it on their own. You might get a slap on the wrist rather than a revocation or major suspension in such a case. Then get the rating without fear of what you might write on the 8710-1 or have the FAA find in your old logs.
 
Fearless Tower said:
From a ramp check standpoint, I don't think the issue is the logbook, but the fact that he might be seen operating an ASES without the rating.
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That would definitely be an issue, as I said. The number of hours he has, I'm doubting.
 
Not the case for the OP, but what is the issue, if said pilot never flew it off of the water?
 
I'd recommend that you go to some place like Sheble's and get the rating and then do what your priest would recommend... "Go and sin no more."

Thirty years ago I had a job flying a C-421 for a company in Wyoming. The owner of the company also owned a C-182 that he purchased new and learned to fly in. The problem was that he never bothered to take his checkride. This guy however, faithfully filled out his logbook for each and every flight and as I remember had something over 700 hours. When he confided in me the situation he asked me if I could help him make things right. I went to a friend of mine at the FAA and explained the situation. I was told to finish up the required checkride preparation flights and and sign him off. I was given the name of a DPE to use for the guy's ride. It actually went very well. I wonder if today's "kinder, gentler" FAA would be as kind and gentle. They weren't out to crucify this guy, but they wanted him legal.
 
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Is there a requirement that you present all your logbooks when taking a checkride?

My understanding is that the only hours needed to be logged are for currency or for a rating. As far as I know,

OP should be able to present his ASEL and a logbook showing the dual time required for the seaplane rating.

I'm probably missing something, but I've only taken one checkride in my life.
 
Dead Stick said:
I'd recommend that you go to some place like Sheble's and get the rating and then do what your priest would recommend... "Go and sin no more."

Thirty years ago I had a job flying a C-421 for a company in Wyoming. The owner of the company also owned a C-182 that he purchased new and learned to fly in. The problem was that he never bothered to take his checkride. This guy however, faithfully filled out his logbook for each and every flight and as I remember had something over 700 hours. When he confided in me the situation he asked me if I could help him make things right. I went to a friend of mine at the FAA and explained the situation. I was told to finish up the required checkride preparation flights and and sign him off. I was given the name of a DPE to use for the guy's ride. It actually went very well. I wonder if today's "kinder, gentler" FAA would be as kind and gentle. They weren't out to crucify this guy, but they wanted him legal.
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You would find that most would want the guy to do the right thing and become legal. Encouraging compliance is a better goal than pursuing enforcement.
 
Steve Foley said:
Is there a requirement that you present all your logbooks when taking a checkride?

My understanding is that the only hours needed to be logged are for currency or for a rating. As far as I know,

OP should be able to present his ASEL and a logbook showing the dual time required for the seaplane rating.

I'm probably missing something, but I've only taken one checkride in my life.
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Since he's already rated as a Private Pilot all he needs are records showing the required training and endorsements for the checkride.

Block 3 of the 8710 is not required to be filled out either.
 
Steve Foley said:
Is there a requirement that you present all your logbooks when taking a checkride?
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No -- only enough to show you meet the requirements for the practical test you're going to take, and for an ASES additional rating ride, that would be only the required training for the practical test within the preceding two calendar months.

My understanding is that the only hours needed to be logged are for currency or for a rating. As far as I know,
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That plus things like Part 135 experience requirements (see 14 CFR 135.243 for example).

OP should be able to present his ASEL and a logbook showing the dual time required for the seaplane rating.
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Correct -- and that's just that seaplane training for the test within the preceding two calendar months.

I'm probably missing something,
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Only a detail or two -- nothing major.
 
RotorAndWing said:
You would find that most would want the guy to do the right thing and become legal. Encouraging compliance is a better goal than pursuing enforcement.
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I know a guy (good friend, this is absolutely a true story) that learned to fly informally in his dad's airplane (dad was PP-ASEL, not a CFI) and became quite a good stick-and-rudder pilot and actually handled himself quite well with ATC. He built up a few hundred hours this way and dad decided he was going to sell the plane to put his daughter through college. The son knew he would have to rent, and that meant a legit license, so dad set him up with a local legit instructor for lessons (instructor had no knowledge of the current situation).

So the first lesson came due, the son jumps in dads airplane (hadn't sold it yet), flew 40 miles from their private strip in remote farm country to the Class D airport, taxis up to the FBO, walks inside and announces to the instructor he's there to take flying lessons. The instructor says "Didn't I just see you taxi up in that airplane right over there?" The son says "Yeah, how else was I supposed to get here?"

He was signed off in an amazingly short period of time...
 
When I did my SES commercial add-on, I didn't even have my logbook with me so they gave me a sticky logbook insert just like the ones they give you at FlightSafety and SimuFlite after recurrents.

I would think long and hard about Ron Levy's wise advise to
...hire an aviation attorney to negotiate a deal for his/her anonymous client -- the FAA is usually happier with you if you do that than if they somehow find out about it on their own. You might get a slap on the wrist rather than a revocation or major suspension in such a case. Then get the rating without fear of what you might write on the 8710-1 or have the FAA find in your old logs.
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Hopefully, it will turn out for you like it turned out for my old employer and he didn't even have his PPL when he was doing all of his flying. If that doesn't work out for you then the other viable option you have is to just:
  1. Call Sheble or someplace like them for a quickie SES add-on. (I actually used Sheble for my SES add-on, they're not half bad.)
  2. Leave your logbooks home.
  3. Keep your mouth shut during the training.
  4. Keep your mouth shut after the training.
One option allow you to walk away with a clear conscious. With the other one, there will always be a cloud over you. (Although it might be pretty thin and whispy if you can keep your mouth shut.) There is a lesson to be learned here isn't there? Life tends to be so much easier when you play by the rules. :idea:
 
Ted DuPuis said:
First off, go get the rating for sure. Now let me relay a friend's story.

Buddy of mine flies skydivers. He got his PP-ASEL and eventually his CP-ASEL. Then the skydiving business needed a bigger plane, so he bought a Twin Bonanza and started flying the skydivers in it. About 800 hours of doing this later, his new boss (who assumed he had a multi rating) found out he didn't have the rating.

"You've been flying this for how long?!"
"About 800 hours worth."
"You dip****, you can't do that!"
"What do you mean I can't do that? I did it!"

Smart? Probably not the smartest thing he's ever done. Legal? Of course not. But he didn't crash, the FSDO never checked out the operation, so they had no problems. Pretty much the same as how you describe the past 20 years of your flight time.

He went and got his weekend multi rating in a Seneca which, as you might imagine, was a snap. You'd find the same.

He's never been questioned about it. It's really a non-issue. Why are you carrying around your logbook? It should never come up in a ramp check, and thus be a non-issue. I don't see OKC questioning anything on your 8710 provided you have the minimum hours required.

Go get the rating and make yourself legal. Shouldn't take you any effort at all. Then leave your logbook at home, where it belongs.
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It's really easy to get-I think it only costs $1100 at Shebles, which makes me wonder why the OP never got the rating. If he does do the training, he'll have to explain why he already knows what he is doing:D. With 1200 ASES, I wouldn't be suprised if he had more seaplane time that=n the instructor.
 
GCA319 said:
It's really easy to get-I think it only costs $1100 at Shebles, which makes me wonder why the OP never got the rating. If he does do the training, he'll have to explain why he already knows what he is doing:D. With 1200 ASES, I wouldn't be suprised if he had more seaplane time that=n the instructor.
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I would also question why the OP never bothered to get the rating given that it's simple, easy, and reasonably cheap. That said, better to make it right than to question.
 
Reminds me of a story that a CFI told me. A guy had taught his girlfriend how to fly his plane (Bonanza, IIRC), so she could fly him home to their private strip when he was drunk. She'd flown him for years like this. Then one day, she learned that pilots need certificates. She went to this CFI, told him the situation, and they set up their first lesson. At the appointed time, she flew into the busy airport where he taught, and after a few hours that day, she was endorsed to solo, so she was "legal" to fly back home. She got her checkride at 40 hours. :rolleyes:
 
hopmedic said:
Reminds me of a story that a CFI told me. A guy had taught his girlfriend how to fly his plane (Bonanza, IIRC), so she could fly him home to their private strip when he was drunk. She'd flown him for years like this. Then one day, she learned that pilots need certificates. She went to this CFI, told him the situation, and they set up their first lesson. At the appointed time, she flew into the busy airport where he taught, and after a few hours that day, she was endorsed to solo, so she was "legal" to fly back home. She got her checkride at 40 hours. :rolleyes:
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I'd suspect a lot of such situations exist, and aviation isn't the only forum. How many of us drove cars solo on public roads before we had our driver's licenses? I'll be the first to plead guilty. This was even with adult knowledge and encouragement!

Not saying that it's right and not condoning it, just stating a fact.
 
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