Would you squawk 7500?

Everskyward said:
Too much caffeine in the evening? :confused: :D
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I don't drink coffee. It's just the way I am.

I think there are easier ways to get from Detroit to Billings than in a hijacked LSA...
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Well, yea. But we have to assume that said hijacker may not be the sharpest tool in the shed.

And I think it would take more than two fuel stops.

But, thanks to a linked video, I now know to run AROUND the horizontal stab...
 
In the great state of Texas we have the castle doctrine which says that your car is an extention of your home and you have the right to defend it with lethal force.

I interpolate that it extends to airplanes, aswell. Now I just need to be old enough to take advantage of it, for whatever reason I don't think the feds would take too kindly to a 17 year old running around with a .38 special in his airplane.
 
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whatever you say boss.... But first, we have to prop the plane.... Stand right here... n'yuck n'yuck n'yuck

I do like Henning's idea of "I just wash them" but i've yet to see a pilot ever admit to NOT being able to fly when asked. :D
 
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Thanks for digging up the story I remembered but couldn't find!
 
I prefer my chances of just pleading inability, "Sorry mister really, I'm just here to wipe it down and do the windows and see if it needs wax. If I take us up I'll just kill us both." My bet is that he leaves; then I can react. Gunfights don't always go down like you hope, good guys don't always prevail over bad; that's the sad truth. One gun is a threat, two guns someone is dying. Since my chances will never be 100% in that situation, I would do better to not escalate the situation from threat and try to defuse it with bulls-t.
 
dell30rb said:
There was a post awhile back with a story from a guy this had happened to. Some younger guy showed up with a 12ga and wanted him to fly somewhere. He squawked 7500 and on his initial call up to ATC he said "cessna xxx, IFR from XX to XX, squawking 7500, clearance please" They responded "blah blah cleared to wherever, confirm you are 7500" and handled the situation like they knew the hijacker was listening to the radio...

It worked out ok. IIRC he told the hijacker when he landed that he needed to go to the tower or maybe FSS and close his flight plan or they would get suspicious.

Could go either way. I'd probably NOT squawk the code initially and conduct the flight normally and see how things went. Depending on the person, they may just want a free ride somewhere. If it was apparent they wanted me for a hostage after I took them to their destination, i'd dial in 7500
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Here's the link to that story:

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.aviation/browse_thread/thread/203c45fcbaad6191/8ce8fdea454ee8ef
 
Henning said:
I prefer my chances of just pleading inability, "Sorry mister really, I'm just here to wipe it down and do the windows and see if it needs wax. If I take us up I'll just kill us both." My bet is that he leaves; then I can react. Gunfights don't always go down like you hope, good guys don't always prevail over bad; that's the sad truth. One gun is a threat, two guns someone is dying. Since my chances will never be 100% in that situation, I would do better to not escalate the situation from threat and try to defuse it with bulls-t.
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I agree, but still like to have the option to shoot it out if needed. All about options.
 
Skylane81E said:
I agree, but still like to have the option to shoot it out if needed. All about options.
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Actually no, that's the road to most likely death of the wrong party. You commit at the onset. If you have a gun and are entertaining the thought of shooting the guy, they should die at the first opportunity.
 
Flying h4x0r said:
Here's the link to that story:

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.aviation/browse_thread/thread/203c45fcbaad6191/8ce8fdea454ee8ef
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Thanks for finding that. It's a great read. Here are the second and thrid parts of the story:

http://groups.google.com/group/rec....349b4830704/00e652667df5d4f1#00e652667df5d4f1

http://groups.google.com/group/rec....cb71b3a2054/4081a0ab276af9b3#4081a0ab276af9b3

It just blows my mind that the guy felt guilty for betraying the highjacker!!!
 
Henning said:
I prefer my chances of just pleading inability, "Sorry mister really, I'm just here to wipe it down and do the windows and see if it needs wax. If I take us up I'll just kill us both." My bet is that he leaves; then I can react. Gunfights don't always go down like you hope, good guys don't always prevail over bad; that's the sad truth. One gun is a threat, two guns someone is dying. Since my chances will never be 100% in that situation, I would do better to not escalate the situation from threat and try to defuse it with bulls-t.
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Based on your posts, I'd say that's a 100% success strategy for you. :rofl:
 
Skylane81E said:
I agree, but still like to have the option to shoot it out if needed. All about options.
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I've competed at Bisley in police and combat pistol, but I'd rather leave the "shooting it out" to the pros, especially when there's a bunch of them and they have better ordnance than I can carry concealed, and I'll be happy to deliver him to the OK Corral for that one.
 
Skip Miller said:
And wait a day for the CAP to arrive? :confused:
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LOL. I have to agree the ELT is retarded.

At the third busiest GA airport (maybe 4th now behind all the Chinese flight schools in PHX), Airport Ops drives around acting like they're looking for the ELT until we arrive (high turnover, no training on their own Doppler DF gear on the ops truck, mostly Metro State aviation college students working the night shift for some cash), and it's going to take an hour or more for AFRCC to even call the Wing, let alone head out there.

With the "Safety" requirement that even Urban DF teams are no longer one-person in CAP, probably after some dumb-ass drove his car into an aircraft while staring at DF needles, getting two people to the airport at the same time is always fun too.

And the Arapahoe County Sheriff? They can't even spell ELT, much less care if one is going off somewhere. They call us for that. If they became aware of it they might call the State Director incorrectly, who'd then have to call AFRCC and kick off the process. Same difference.

As far as um... "unofficial response"... I *might* just head to *cough* my hangar to check on something *cough* if my 121.5 monitor on the roof of one of the FBOs alerts on an ELT, but until another CAP UDF qualified member shows up, I'm *cough* a private individual enjoying my hobby of DFing after a nice trip to my hangar with my personal ramp access badge. ;)

(Actually this new dual-person silliness is why I haven't bothered renewing my UDF rating in CAP. So two would have to show up. I'd meet them after a cell phone call and tell 'em what hangar to go to and leave. "I was never here." Or if the weather was nice I'd go grab a lawn chair at my hangar and wait for them to finish up contacting the owner or whatever and then see if they wanted to go get a bite to eat or a beverage, depending on time of day. I've turned off 20 or more ELTs after finding them by myself with my personal DF gear. I'm a big boy and know not to drive and DF simultaneously, but apparently some dumbass in the intervening years while I was away from CAP, wasn't quite so bright.)

It used to be fun to "race" AFRCC. See if you could be standing at the ELT when they called. "I'm standing next to it, would you like me to contact the owner to turn it off?". Those days are long gone. There's also liability issues with even touching someone else's ELT or aircraft these days. I'd prefer you get your butt to the airport and turn it off yourself. I'll let ya know if we heard it for more than 30 minutes. Whether you then replace your batteries is up to you.

Anyway. Henning... Bottom line is... We can't start your direction these days until there's two of us and never without an AFRCC assigned mission number, and we'll do you no good when we get there. I don't carry in (that) uniform either.

And around here, Airport Ops might find you if you painted yourself safety orange and stood on the roof of your hangar waving frantically, and the Sheriff doesn't care.
 
Plan A it is, do nothing. Long Beach the guy was driven by airport police.
 
I unofficially found an ELT a week or so after going through CAP ground school on finding ELTs! I landed at Monterey (MRY) around the same time that tower personnel started hearing an ELT, so they asked me to check if mine was going off. I had a handheld com radio with me, so I used it to determine that it wasn't coming from my plane, and then I used to trace the signal via body-shadowing, and found that it was coming from a maroon Barron on the ramp. (This was long before 9/11, so even though there is airline service there, it was no problem for me to wander around the GA ramp.) So then I called the info in to the tower. They sent an airport truck out to confirm. I don't know if CAP ever did get called on that one.
 
I would take him up.

I would try to find a turbulent layer, or absent that, just fly like I ordinarily do. Enter a few unusual attitudes, ask myself outloud why I took all that cough medicine (tip of the hat to Bill Murray), and do steep turns until I puke on myself.

The guy would be crying like a baby, begging to get back on the ground, and upon landing, he would hand me his gun, make a run for the fence, and be gone.

Just like all my other passengers. :thumbsup:
 
Henning said:
If I was going to do something like that, I'd set off an ELT, in the hangar your transponder isn't going to do squat. We're not likely to get airborne unless they can fly.
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Sometime during the first five minutes past the hour, turn on all your radios, including your hand held. Put each one on a different frequency, then switch on your ELT.

Every radio, no matter what frequency it is on, will start screaming the ELT signal, which sounds like a car alarm on steroids.

Your hijacker will probably be able to deduce that your are being less than cooperative. Probably smack you around a bit.

I'd be a little uncomfortable squawking 7500, you just never know what is going to come back over the radio. "997SG, are you being hijacked?" I guess I would have to take my chances and do it though.

As far as the above stated heroics go, no matter how you plan and train for an event, you never really know until it is actually going down just how you will really react.

The person who does plan and train will for sure be in a much better position than the person who doesn't, but it could still go either way.

We all like to think of ourselves as great heroes, but usually, actual heroes never thought of themselves as such.

-John
 
I guess I'd forget to give the passenger brief about wearing seatbelts
I'd probably also forget to make sure their door is secure.
Add a lot of right turn aileron at the same time applying a lot of left rudder.
See what falls out.
 
The problem with developing a strategy is variability in the hijacker.

A single desperate person that has never been up in a light aircraft might be very controllable once up.

Maybe put it in a spin and tell him the gun goes out the window before you recover.

What's he going to do, shoot you?

How green does someone need to get before they are an easy target for a CW?
 
DavidWhite said:
In the great state of Texas we have the castle doctrine which says that your car is an extention of your home and you have the right to defend it with lethal force.

I interpolate that it extends to airplanes, aswell. Now I just need to be old enough to take advantage of it, for whatever reason I don't think the feds would take too kindly to a 17 year old running around with a .38 special in his airplane.
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Texas law did not use to be that way with regards to autos. The relevant legalese that was passed in the past 10 years is that if you had a gun in your car you were presumed to be traveling.

The concept of traveling predates concealed carry laws in Texas. You can lawfully carry without a permit while traveling. Until the addon legislation, traveling was defined by the courts. Regardless of the add on, flying by plane meets the spirit of the traveling clause even in the old days.... For unlicensed carry in a car It's not a castle doctrine issue.

As for me, I'm on my 4th or 5th renewal of my 4 year Texas CHL, so the castle doctrine and traveling are moot points. I packed in my flight bag on every cross country as long as my destination recognized my Texas CHL. Granted, I am much less likely to need to defend myself in the air or at an airport than on the drive to/from the airfield.

Texas also does not require retreat (stand your ground). If you are justified in using force or deadly force, you don't have to run away.

Get your CHL at age 21 and castle doctrine and traveling will be moot points for you as well.
 
There is actually a procedure in response to someone squawking 7500. ATC is supposed to verify it with the pilot without saying anything obvious. So the will say something like "N12345, confirm you are squawking 7-5-0-0" and you just have to say "affirmative" and they know it is the real deal. Presumably the hijacker is not familiar with what "squawk" or "7500" is and simply assumes it is part of normal ATC procedure.

(AIM 6-3-4)
 
Fuel shutoff and engine failure is one option. The plane may not make it to the end of the runway for takeoff before it quits. Or shortly after liftoff.

Or he's probably quite a bit wired hijacking someone and possibly likely to forget to put his seatbelt on. Or try to get it off him however by distraction or whatever. If that opportunity happens and when the gun isn't pointed at me, violently slam his head against the ceiling, then violently slam him into the seat, then back to the ceiling again. Then calmly take the gun from mr broken neck and calmly shoot him dead right there in the seat. Fair's fair.
 
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Whether or not a small experimental or light airplane will do damage is irrelevant.

The old spineless thinking that one should give in to an agressor is outdated and wrong. I don't care if you're flying a 747 or a J3 cub. You don't give the bad guy a weapon, ever. That includes giving him or her an airplane and pilot.

Terrorism isn't about the damage that can be done. It's about terror. Fear. Terrorism works when it leads to losses of freedom. While a few people died during 09/11, far, far more damage was done economically. Transportation nation wide came to a stand still, and it's been changed forever. A third of the flight schools across the country went under. The immediate damage was undesirable and unfortunate: it was a tragedy. The damage went far beyond the Twin Towers, however.

Those of us flying ag aircraft at the time had all sorts of restrictions brought, even though ag aircraft had nothing to do with 09/11. The DC area airspace is still a nightmarish mess. It doesn't take attacking a major building to do that. It takes public concern and political response, and you allowing your airplane to be used for a terrorist concern could be all it takes to losing light aircraft freedoms.

Yes, I fly a 747; I also fly light aircraft. The private pilot often dismisses the heavy iron driver; we couldn't possibly understand you, could we? Eighty different models of aircraft flown to date, many of them light airplanes, but I'm completely out of touch? Hardly.

If you're thinking of giving in and letting the bad man have his way with you, you're a spineless coward. Don't be that way. Stand up. If you're called to participate in air piracy, you have an obligation to prevent it, up to and including sacrificing your life if needed, and up to and including killing the aggressor, if needed.
 
Great post Doug. In many ways we've become a nation of sheep. :(
 
John Baker said:
Sometime during the first five minutes past the hour, turn on all your radios, including your hand held. Put each one on a different frequency, then switch on your ELT.

Every radio, no matter what frequency it is on, will start screaming the ELT signal, which sounds like a car alarm on steroids.

Your hijacker will probably be able to deduce that your are being less than cooperative. Probably smack you around a bit.
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What radios are going to be on in the hangar or on the ramp? I'm not getting in the plane with him and turning on a radio, I don't know how.
 
Since Sept 11, 2001, the secret code is no longer a secret. I'd use it. Might also start transmitting on 121.5 instead of assigned frequencies.

That was a good read. Apparently maintaining composure works against you to those guys on the ground. Personally, I think that he was doing what we are trained to do. Aviate, navigate, communicate.

Sitting here in my safe comfortable home, I think he could have flashed his lights to the tower that was sending a lightgun signal. But, that is no criticism of what he did.
 
DouglasBader said:
Whether or not a small experimental or light airplane will do damage is irrelevant.

The old spineless thinking that one should give in to an agressor is outdated and wrong. I don't care if you're flying a 747 or a J3 cub. You don't give the bad guy a weapon, ever. That includes giving him or her an airplane and pilot.

Terrorism isn't about the damage that can be done. It's about terror. Fear. Terrorism works when it leads to losses of freedom. While a few people died during 09/11, far, far more damage was done economically. Transportation nation wide came to a stand still, and it's been changed forever. A third of the flight schools across the country went under. The immediate damage was undesirable and unfortunate: it was a tragedy. The damage went far beyond the Twin Towers, however.

Those of us flying ag aircraft at the time had all sorts of restrictions brought, even though ag aircraft had nothing to do with 09/11. The DC area airspace is still a nightmarish mess. It doesn't take attacking a major building to do that. It takes public concern and political response, and you allowing your airplane to be used for a terrorist concern could be all it takes to losing light aircraft freedoms.

Yes, I fly a 747; I also fly light aircraft. The private pilot often dismisses the heavy iron driver; we couldn't possibly understand you, could we? Eighty different models of aircraft flown to date, many of them light airplanes, but I'm completely out of touch? Hardly.

If you're thinking of giving in and letting the bad man have his way with you, you're a spineless coward. Don't be that way. Stand up. If you're called to participate in air piracy, you have an obligation to prevent it, up to and including sacrificing your life if needed, and up to and including killing the aggressor, if needed.
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Bull****.

Giving someone with a gun and an intent to kill access to my airplane to commit suicide in is a good way to prevent others form coming to harm. I'm willing to throw my airplane away to protect others.

I'm not giving him a weapon. He already has a weapon. I'm preventing him from effectively using a weapon.

If I was sitting in seat 22 F, that would be a different story. But right now, I'm not.

The best thing that could happen to GA would be for 100 terrorists to jump into Cessna 150s and use them to crash into buildings to show just how harmless light single aircraft are. Demonstrate that there is no need to be afraid.
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
The best thing that could happen to GA would be for 100 terrorists to jump into Cessna 150s and use them to crash into buildings to show just how harmless light single aircraft are. Demonstrate that there is no need to be afraid.
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You're kidding, right? That has already happened at the White House, and several buildings around the country where there was little to no real damage, yet people are STILL terrified of small planes.

The media and general public don't CARE about facts or the truth. They are conditioned to promote fear, and be afraid of what they don't know.

If what you want to happen were to occur, General Aviation would be shut down permanently.
 
Anthony said:
You're kidding, right? That has already happened at the White House, and several buildings around the country where there was little to no real damage, yet people are STILL terrified of small planes.

The media and general public don't CARE about facts or the truth. They are conditioned to promote fear, and be afraid of what they don't know.

If what you want to happen were to occur, General Aviation would be shut down permanently.
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Those were isolated incidences that purd near no one knows about.

It's time to stop being afraid.

It's time to stop running from shadows.

It's time to look at what can really happen - not what ignorant people imagine.
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
Those were isolated incidences that purd near no one knows about.

It's time to stop being afraid.

It's time to stop running from shadows.

It's time to look at what can really happen - not what ignorant people imagine.
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Tell that to the bozos that created the SFRA. Sorry, shameless plug for my little world
 
DouglasBader said:
If you're thinking of giving in and letting the bad man have his way with you, you're a spineless coward. Don't be that way. Stand up. If you're called to participate in air piracy, you have an obligation to prevent it, up to and including sacrificing your life if needed, and up to and including killing the aggressor, if needed.
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I'm there with you except for the suicidal bit. If I'm dead or alive it's not going to change how the masses perceive the event and how they behave afterward. If I bounce the bastid off the ceiling and shoot him and deliver a bloody corpse to the authorities, the public is going to behave as if the bad guy successfully knocked down all of NYC with a single 150 anyway then rape GA again for it..and likely lock me up for life for murder as well. It's just the type of people they are and I refuse to support or die for those type of people because in the long run, their behavior is worst than the terrorists. Q.E.D. Coward because I'm not suicidal? Maybe, however GA or a broken window in a skyscraper doesn't fall in my category of justifiable reasons to be deleted from existence. But if the bastid wants his way, he's going to have to stay alert and paranoid while putting me at extreme risk because I'm going to try to get away alive no matter what even if GA is shut down completely and the gov't tattoos our certificate number on our forearms and starts building gas chambers.
 
I've been thinking about the question in the thread title, and it occurs to me that failing to squawk 7500 could cause me to either be held responsible, or to be responsible, for harm that came to others as a result of my not communicating the situation.

I also wouldn't want people to think I was in league with the hijacker. That could have consequences that were quite dangerous to me and to any innocent passengers.
 
Palmpilot said:
I've been thinking about the question in the thread title, and it occurs to me that failing to squawk 7500 could cause me to either be held responsible, or to be responsible, for harm that came to others as a result of my not communicating the situation.

I also wouldn't want people to think I was in league with the hijacker. That could have consequences that were quite dangerous to me and to any innocent passengers.
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Is squawking 7600 at pilots discretion?
 
david0tey said:
Get a concealed-carry permit. Get a glock 17. Done.
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Big gun to carry concealed. My choice for carry is the 27 (subcompact .40). Then again, I'm not a huge guy.
 
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