would you fly across Lake MI in a 172 (80nm)

Based on experience to date, probably not. I have approached the shoreline on numerous occasions in a single with the intent of crossing, but haven't ever been able to do it. Crossing the Atlantic in a twin was much less stressful.
 
MSPAviator said:
Life vest wouldn't do anything. You'd die of hypothermia.
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Most pilots for some reason are deathly scared of flying over water...

1- Water does NOT burn so an emergency landing will be safer

2- About everywhere in the world there are boats in the waters you are flying over and if the big fan quits you can glide right up to those boats and splash it in. They will pick you up within seconds.... Years ago the FAA sponsored a "overwater safety" seminar in Freeport , Bahamas. The kicker was you had to fly over 50 miles of open ocean to get to the seminar... :confused::confused: I invited 3 others to go with me.... 2 took me up on it.. the one who chickened out claimed we would all die.:lol:... For the other two I told them to keep track of any boat between Ft Pierce and West End in case the motor puked.. Once they saw there were boats about every 1/4 mile they quickly relaxed and we had a great time in the bar that night laughing about the third person who backed out of a wonderful trip :yesnod::yesnod:..
 
Someone pointed out to me that these "Bay Tours" I often do for POA members (OK OK so all of them have been canceled due to weather)....

Well, they are at low altitudes over open water. That is the way it has to be to avoid the Bravo there.

I still do them.

Kimberly
 
I would fly across Lake Michigan. The first few times across to OSH, I crossed at 8500, 5500, 4500 and 2200 ft. I cross to the UP over Beaver Island at about 1600 ft. and at the bridge at about car level. I like to be at my chosen altitude for about a half hour or so before I cross. It gives me a chance to assess how well the plane is acting. Flying north around the lake can expose you to terrain that is as or more inhospitable than the lake, just not as wet. Although it did take 20 years to find a Tripacer that went down in the Seney Swamp. It really depends on what makes you fell most comfortable. Some people talk about the "Automatic Rough" feature of engines over water. You may be more aware of the sounds over the water. My plane always seems to run smoother over the water and the ride is less turbulent because the water is a more even temperature over a larger area. The coast lines are cool to look at but the middle of the lake can be a little monotonous.
 
My way of thinking has always been to reduce risks prior to making the flight, so no, I wouldn't try it in a single.
 
jtheune said:
Given that we are talking about summertime ( Flying to oshkosh ) in July the average water temp at Buffalo is ~70 degrees the survival time is more then 2 hours. Seems like your going to have enough time for rescue assuming someone knows your down
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How was it given that we're talking about summertime?
 
Re: would you fly across Lake MI in a 172 (70nm)

Badger said:
When I did my PP oral, the examiner asked me this question, and I replied "no, I'd go south via Indiana".

But that was based on a 4500' above msl, etc. I've since talked with several pilots and they would do it, trying to get over 10,000', etc.

It seems like a roll of the dice, if you have an emergency in the middle somewhere, you are likely going to die in the cold water. Even with best glide, there is plenty of space in the middle with no way to reach land.

Going around is closer to 200nm.
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Coincidentally, I did the first half of my pp training on the eastern shore of Lk. Michigan. A joke current at the time went something like this:

Pilot to controller: Help! My engine just quit over the middle of Lake Michigan - What shall I do?

Controller to pilot: Repeat after me: "Our father who art in Heaven......"

I've never crossed the lake - and wouldn't attempt it. Just too far. OTOH I have flown over Puget Sound many times (did the second half there), and also have overflown the Channel Islands in CA.

Dave.
 
FWIW, my club prohibits flying across the lake in a single engine, so it's a moot point.
The US Coast Guard Auxiliary also prohibits their pilots from flying more than 25 miles from shore without not only a life vest, but a survival suite, basically a dry suit, with specified undergarments to help prevent hypothermia. And there's no way to cross the lake and remain within 25nm of shore. IIRC, there's also an exception that you can be within 25nm of a Coast Guard vessel capable of launching a rescue.

That said, last summer I flew lengthwise down Lake Erie when flying Chicago to Connecticut, and I didn't even have a life vest on.
 
Re: would you fly across Lake MI in a 172 (70nm)

cessna182b said:
I've never crossed the lake - and wouldn't attempt it. Just too far.
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Depends where you cross. A crossing from McGulpin Point to Point La Barbe wouldn't bother me at all.
 
Doesn't the FARs require a raft outside 50nm from shore? Maybe lakes are exempted. Still, I'd bring a raft in a SEL. I'd bet FBOs rent them just for lake crossings.

I love the argument, "I probably won't be able to get it out of the plane!". Yeah, well ditch a plane and I bet you try! You have a lot better chance of getting it out if it exists...locally...and not 180nm away at Signature!


Plus, I'd much rather fly SE over a large, flat, full of boats lake than over terrain at night. I think it's all about risk management. Is the time and fuel saved going over worth the added risk? The same could be said of the Rocky Mountians. The same could be said every time you turn over the engine and that's applies to cars and boats too.
 
kimberlyanne546 said:
Someone pointed out to me that these "Bay Tours" I often do for POA members (OK OK so all of them have been canceled due to weather)....

Well, they are at low altitudes over confined water. That is the way it has to be to avoid the Bravo there.

I still do them.

Kimberly
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FTFY, if you fly out to the Farallons to spot sharks, then you'll be flying over open water. Most days on the SF Bay you'd have to be careful to not hit a boat or a ship ditching from 500', and there a minimum of 3 different helos ready to launch in the area that can be to you in <10 minutes. The SF Bay is not something I worry about when flying over.
 
Captain said:
Doesn't the FARs require a raft outside 50nm from shore? Maybe lakes are exempted. Still, I'd bring a raft in a SEL. I'd bet FBOs rent them just for lake crossings.
a away at Signature!
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I think the raft is only commercial requirement.
 
I would, so long as I got as high as practical before hitting the shoreline.

I have crossed it in my 182 at 9500' before. Next time I'll be above 10,000'. If the ceiling won't permit 10k, follow shore instead.

For those who won't, would you fly night vfr over Kentucky or West Virginia?
 
Raft rental is impractical for an occasional crossing. Combination of bulk, weight, cost, return after rental, etc are too much to overcome. Cheaper and quicker to just fly around the lake.

Captain said:
Still, I'd bring a raft in a SEL. I'd bet FBOs rent them just for lake crossings.
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Just carry a life jacket and a PLB and you are good to go.

Make sure you are talking to ATC as there is a lot of traffic into / out of O'hare.


Been there, done that.
 
I have flown over Lake Michigan many times, at night, in IMC, and while picking up ice. All of this was in a well equipped twin. First, there are actually very few boats or ships on the lake. Most crossings I have never seen one, so the hope of ditching near one and being picked up quickly are poor.

If you survive the ditching and can get out of the plane, don and activate your life vest, find your plb, you will be lucky. Lake Michigan can have swells of 20 feet, and seem like the middle of the ocean. You and your pax will separate and drift apart quickly. Do they each have a plb?

In 70 degree water, what is the mean time of consciousness and what is the mean survival time. How long will it take to activate the SAR assets from Michigan and get them to the area of your last known position? How far will you have drifted apart during that time? Are you carrying smoke, signal mirrors, flares, or even a whistle or light on your vest?

Two years ago while crossing east to west (never below 9000 even in a twin for me), it was intermittent IMC, and we heard a guy in a Cessna crossing at 1800, scud running at around 1000agl across the entire lake. Didn't Kimberly cross the lake with someone she had never flown with before in a rental plane she had never flown in previously? And returned Vfr at night?

My guess is that most of the pilots who cross the lake in a single (let alone at night or low altitude) have not been flying long enough to have had a mechanical failure in flight. However, if you fly enough years or hours, even a well maintained plane will have something go bad inflight at some time, and over the lake, especially at night or at low altitude is a situation where even a minor failure can start a cascade of worsening events.
 
AcroBoy said:
I have flown over Lake Michigan many times, at night, in IMC, and while picking up ice. All of this was in a well equipped twin. First, there are actually very few boats or ships on the lake. Most crossings I have never seen one, so the hope of ditching near one and being picked up quickly are poor.
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There are plenty of vessels on Lake Michigan, some of them are even operated in areas where they may be helpful in a ditching.

But I wouldn't rely on them.
 
I fly to Osh every summer and it would be faster to fly across the lake but I never have due to the common fear of being that far from shore. This February I flew to the Bahamas and had a open water crossing of about the same length. Now my thoughts on open water have changed a bit. I may do the water crossing this year.
 
roncachamp said:
No point over Lake Michigan is more than 35 NM from shore.
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Sorry, I was just going off the thread title (80nm). I didn't actually go measure it. Thanks.


...it should be obvious as I've flown over it a million times w/o the raft.
 
I would agree with those who brought up the issue of extracting a raft from a ditched A/C. Unless you have a set scenario for pre-positioning the raft and have actually practiced it it might be tougher than one might imagine. I routinely went through ditching simulators which flipped you over to simulate the normal orientation of a helo when it ditches. Even in a warm pool with clear water it can be disorienting. That being said, I can recall four instances in my career where I responded to ditched A/C. Three were in rough sea states and had no recovery. The other was in calm seas off of Florida and the plane (I think it was a Bonanza) floated quite well. Obviously the quality of the arrival and the sea state are huge factors in survival. I'd do it, in a A/C I knew and given good weather conditions.
 
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When I go over water with pax (AR routes, Q route, BR routes, Florida to Cancun, Florida to Jamaica) I always tell them, "See that big red square thing? That's the raft...it HAS to go with us if we land in water. The first thing to leave this plane is the raft, weather I open the door or one of you."

That gets their attention and hopefully that's the thing they remember after I turn back and announce we're going in and to don their life vests. Sure hope it never gets to that! knock on wood...
 
jtheune said:
And in the summer time during the trip to Oshkosh the lake is warm as well.
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At the middle, the lake will probably not be much warmer than 70F. Without a plb a floating person is going to be very hard to spot, assuming you survive long enough to be found.
 
Actually, it looks like the surface water temperature at the end of July last year was 65F. Mean time to unconsciousness listed is 2-7h, while time to death 2-40h, assuming no injuries. It would probably take SAR assets two hours to get to the scene, and perhaps longer to find a survivor depending on weather, sea state, etc., unless equipped with a plb.

Those odds don't sound to encouraging to me.
 
AcroBoy said:
I have flown over Lake Michigan many times, at night, in IMC, and while picking up ice. All of this was in a well equipped twin. First, there are actually very few boats or ships on the lake. Most crossings I have never seen one, so the hope of ditching near one and being picked up quickly are poor.

If you survive the ditching and can get out of the plane, don and activate your life vest, find your plb, you will be lucky. Lake Michigan can have swells of 20 feet, and seem like the middle of the ocean. You and your pax will separate and drift apart quickly. Do they each have a plb?

In 70 degree water, what is the mean time of consciousness and what is the mean survival time. How long will it take to activate the SAR assets from Michigan and get them to the area of your last known position? How far will you have drifted apart during that time? Are you carrying smoke, signal mirrors, flares, or even a whistle or light on your vest?

Two years ago while crossing east to west (never below 9000 even in a twin for me), it was intermittent IMC, and we heard a guy in a Cessna crossing at 1800, scud running at around 1000agl across the entire lake. Didn't Kimberly cross the lake with someone she had never flown with before in a rental plane she had never flown in previously? And returned Vfr at night?

My guess is that most of the pilots who cross the lake in a single (let alone at night or low altitude) have not been flying long enough to have had a mechanical failure in flight. However, if you fly enough years or hours, even a well maintained plane will have something go bad inflight at some time, and over the lake, especially at night or at low altitude is a situation where even a minor failure can start a cascade of worsening events.
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You should be wearing your life vest, not donning it. And if you have a PLB it should be clipped to the vest or around your neck. And I agree, you should have a PLB for each occupant you care about.

Kim was flying with Ed in his plane, not a rental.

I think 70* is optimistic for surface temp in the middle of the lake, especially if there is enough churn that you have 20' swells. And I don't think there's any way I would do it at night.

Does anyone know if there places around the Great Lakes that rent rafts? I know there are in FL for those going to the Bahamas, but I've never heard of them up here.
 
This picture is taken on Lake Superior somewhere between DLH and TWM at I dunno, 3 or 4 thousand feet.

The opposite shore is about 25nm away, would the boat even notice my plane ditching if I landed 5nm away from him? How long would it take him to react and steam 5nm to make it to me, maybe 30 minutes at best? Would someone hear my 121.5 Mayday? Could I contact DLH tower?

I'll take my chances with a forced landing on Hwy 61. :)

155065_178047385542567_100000119195795_660857_4266136_n.jpg
 
You have to fly RIGHT across his bow. I mean RIGHT across it. Those merchant mariners are often on auto-pilot and they may not see you. They need to HEAR you. Don't screw around and fly right by the bridge and ditch right in front of him. And by 'right in front of him' I mean off to the side so you don't get run over...
 
Captain said:
You have to fly RIGHT across his bow. I mean RIGHT across it. Those merchant mariners are often on auto-pilot and they may not see you. They need to HEAR you. Don't screw around and fly right by the bridge and ditch right in front of him. And by 'right in front of him' I mean off to the side so you don't get run over...
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Ummm.... How's he going to hear you if your engine is stopped? Maybe the sound of your plane bouncing off his hull, but that's about it.

If you still have partial power, you should be high-tailing it for shore and screaming on 121.5 (or, better, to the ATC you've been talking with the entire time)!
 
Captain said:
You have to fly RIGHT across his bow. I mean RIGHT across it. Those merchant mariners are often on auto-pilot and they may not see you. They need to HEAR you. Don't screw around and fly right by the bridge and ditch right in front of him. And by 'right in front of him' I mean off to the side so you don't get run over...
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How would they HEAR an airplane that's about to ditch?
 
gprellwitz said:
Ummm.... How's he going to hear you if your engine is stopped? Maybe the sound of your plane bouncing off his hull, but that's about it.

If you still have partial power, you should be high-tailing it for shore and screaming on 121.5 (or, better, to the ATC you've been talking with the entire time)!
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Yup. that ident button is a wonderful thing.:yesnod:
 
You're right. Engine quit they're not going to 'hear' you. My point was if you want that cargo ship to stop and pick you up you better make it obvious you're there. I'd fly right across the bow and hope that someone on the bridge is looking out the window.

I'm telling you. Those merchant marine guys have a real tendency to turn on the auto-pilot and start a game of 'spades' to pass the time. I'd hate to land a mile off the port side and watch them steam off over the horizon.
 
Captain said:
You're right. Engine quit they're not going to 'hear' you. My point was if you want that cargo ship to stop and pick you up you better make it obvious you're there. I'd fly right across the bow and hope that someone on the bridge is looking out the window.

I'm telling you. Those merchant marine guys have a real tendency to turn on the auto-pilot and start a game of 'spades' to pass the time. I'd hate to land a mile off the port side and watch them steam off over the horizon.
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I agree, and I was only half joking when I suggested bouncing off their hull. Attempting a landing on the deck might not be the stupidest move you could make. It couldwould, of course, be the last!
 
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