DMD3.
Pre-takeoff checklist
Because part 91.78 says that an EFB can be used in place of paper charts (approach plates, IFR charts, etc.), does an examiner have to let you use foreflight on a checkride?
Would the examiner be required to let you use foreflight on a checkride?
- Thread starter DMD3.
- Start date
Yes, they can also 'fail' it on you.
Brad Z
Final Approach
What is 91.78? You mean AC 91-78?
Yes you can. Notice the circular says:
It is suggested that a secondary or back up source of aeronautical information necessary for the flight be available to the pilot in the aircraft. The secondary or backup information may be either traditional paper-based material or displayed electronically.
Translation: you'll want to carry a back-up to your EFP, either another tablet or iphone running EFB software if you want to prove to the examiner that you're making good ADM.
DMD3.
Pre-takeoff checklist
SixPapaCharlie
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Not sure what that means.
DPE: "Oops your battery died. Now put that away son"
DMD3.
Pre-takeoff checklist
Yes, that's what I was referring to.
Although I'm not required to have paper charts or another EFB as backup unless I'm flying under Parts 121 or 135 (airline or charter transport), I imagine it will make a good impression, not to mention for safety reasons (I still like to carry a spare VFR sectional, even though it's a bit outdated).
DMD3.
Pre-takeoff checklist
Ok.
Would that mean that I fail the checkride if I don't have backups (again, they're not actually required by law).
JeffDG
Touchdown! Greaser!
Ok.
Would that mean that I fail the checkride if I don't have backups (again, they're not actually required by law).
Well, since you can't use ForeFlight for primary nav, it shouldn't. If he asks you how you're gonna land, ask ATC for vectors to the nearest airport with a radar approach and do an ASR.
Part of what the DPE is looking for when he "fails" the device is how you cope with an unexpected situation. Using available resources like ATC and shifting workload to them shows good judgement in such a situation.
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Ok.
Would that mean that I fail the checkride if I don't have backups (again, they're not actually required by law).
You fail if you can't manage the situation. What you are required is to have all the information pertinent to the flight, you can have that in your head if you want, you just have to be able to perform. I'm assuming you are working in your PP, for that I would suggest you be competent in the use and knowledge of a sectional chart, and it would be wise to have a current one for the check ride.
DMD3.
Pre-takeoff checklist
pericynthion
Pre-takeoff checklist
ATC will be happy to give you vectors and read you the details of an approach if need be. Had to do that once when my paper charts disappeared out the window :/
DMD3.
Pre-takeoff checklist
Hence the reason I posted this in the Cleared for the Approach forum. 
(Perhaps I should have posted in Pilot Training 
), but in any event, I like the idea of Foreflight because I won't have to purchase IFR charts and approach plates so often, but I guess it won't hurt to purchase them one time for the checkride.
(Perhaps I should have posted in Pilot Training ), but in any event, I like the idea of Foreflight because I won't have to purchase IFR charts and approach plates so often, but I guess it won't hurt to purchase them one time for the checkride.
Actually no, I am working for my Instrument Rating.
Instrument rating makes it more interesting since EFBs are a legit source for charts, but geo referencing on the iPad for navigation is not quite kosher. I would have paper at the ready, a low alt enroute and a NACO book are cheap.
dweyant
Pre-takeoff checklist
Actually no, I am working for my Instrument Rating.
I planned my IFR X-Country on paper charts and had them in the plane. However I used Foreflight and my Garmin 480. DPE had no issues with either.
I also had printed copies of all the approaches I expected us to fly. However, one of the VOR's wound up being out of service (unscheduled), I wound up briefing and flying the approach we subbed in the air all using Foreflight.
-Dan
DMD3.
Pre-takeoff checklist
Yes! You can kind of scrape by if your VFR charts are a bit out of date (though not for a checkride), but having up-to-date IFR equipment is a must, which is why I like the idea of Foreflight so much.
However, if I do use Foreflight for the checkride, I won't have the Pro version (no viewing my position on the approach plate). Methinks that would not impress the examiner very much.
Yes! You can kind of scrape by if your VFR charts are a bit out of date (though not for a checkride), but having up-to-date IFR equipment is a must, which is why I like the idea of Foreflight so much.
However, if I do use Foreflight for the checkride, I won't have the Pro version (no viewing my position on the approach plate). Methinks that would not impress the examiner very much.
It's really a double edged sword with geo referencing, you need to be able to deal with not having it, but if you have it available, it is poor decision making to not use it for supplemental information, especially when one considers the rather high state of the technology.
What I would do is operate the gear as you would on a regular IFR flight, geo ref and all, and let examiner 'fail the equipment' as they see fit.
DMD3.
Pre-takeoff checklist
The examiner I'll be going to is supposed to be pretty laid back, according to my CFI. He's one of those who can already tell whether or not someone knows how to fly before they ever get to cruising altitude, and if he sees you do know what you're doing, the checkride will be pretty easy. Just 3 different approaches at 3 different airports with one holding pattern, and that's that (lasts about an hour and a half at the most).
DMD3.
Pre-takeoff checklist
That's what I'll do. And I'm betting that if I have some backup paper charts/plates with me, he'll let me use Foreflight the entire time. However, if I DON'T have them, he'll 'fail' the equipment just to prove a point.
4CornerFlyer
Line Up and Wait
For the life of me I can't understand why spending $20 on paper charts to have on a checkride would be a question.
Jon
Jon
That would be a reasonable bet. Another factor will be how much you reference the iPad. If it appears you are relying on it for 'primary data', it will likely fail, if you are glancing at it to check references and back up your 'scan' navigation, you'll see that less likely.
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Jaybird180
Final Approach
plates you can get online (airnav.com), print them on paper for the checkrideHence the reason I posted this in the Cleared for the Approach forum.
For the check ride, paper charts will simplify things (and ONLY paper charts). Ive never heard of an examiner "failing" those. Also, the easiest setup is two VORs, one with a glideslope. The IFR GPS complicates things because the examiners usually don't know how to use them (although that is changing). Still, those GPSs are quite complicated compared to a Nav/Com. And viewed by some as "cheating".
The concept of 'cheating' in aviation does not exist, it's not a flipping game being played. You are risking lives by transporting them through the air, failure to perform has good likelihood of fatality. There is no substitute for accurate, easy to interpret, information to give one situational awareness, situational awareness in IMC is life.
DMD3.
Pre-takeoff checklist
SixPapaCharlie
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Sixer
How much are you paying for foreflight?
AggieMike88
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The original "I don't know it all" of aviation.
This. Especially for the Checkride.
Cockpit Resource Management is one of the emphasis items. If the DPE notices you have the L-chart and the NACO book tucked away in one of the side pouches, and within easy reach, he'll will likely give you higher marks for good CRM.
DMD3.
Pre-takeoff checklist
Haven't gotten it yet (haven't even purchased an ipad yet) but I intend to get the $75 a year standard foreflight.
bullwinkle
Pattern Altitude
How do you find the freq to contact ATC when your chart with all the freqs just blew out the window (or EFB shutdown)?
AF/D I guess, but you are not required to have one. Get on 121.5 and ask somebody to give you a freq or hope ATC hears you there?
JasonM
Pattern Altitude
I used foreflight for the planning and during the check ride. Even used the weight and balance app they just came out with. I have the pro version and would recommend that if you are going for your IFR ticket. My DPE also did not fail it, but I made sure to point out that the G1000 was 100% current and had the chartview feature and that I was prepared to use it.
As far as that comment on cheating with a GPS, I was accused of that by many people including my primary CFII whom is older prefers the steam guages. I trained both ways so I know the differences and can honestly say that learning all the ins and outs of the G1000 is a little more in-depth. Once you know it all, the situational awareness and wealth of information is sooo much better and I would say it is much safer as well.
I don't think anyone that has trained in only one way would be very comfortable diving into the soup in what they didn't train on. but I would not say it is cheating. I would just say it is different.
As far as that comment on cheating with a GPS, I was accused of that by many people including my primary CFII whom is older prefers the steam guages. I trained both ways so I know the differences and can honestly say that learning all the ins and outs of the G1000 is a little more in-depth. Once you know it all, the situational awareness and wealth of information is sooo much better and I would say it is much safer as well.
I don't think anyone that has trained in only one way would be very comfortable diving into the soup in what they didn't train on. but I would not say it is cheating. I would just say it is different.
JasonM
Pattern Altitude
How do you find the freq to contact ATC when your chart with all the freqs just blew out the window (or EFB shutdown)?
AF/D I guess, but you are not required to have one. Get on 121.5 and ask somebody to give you a freq or hope ATC hears you there?
One thing I got in the habit of doing before every flight was jotting down freq.s I would use on my flight. It makes it nice to see them on a notepad on my kneeboard when I need them.
Ofcourse, if you have an onboard GPS you could likely just look them up as well.
But isn't the 480 certified for IFR?
For the life of me I can't understand
1) why this question keeps coming up
2) anyone would trust their life to a consumer device. yes, we've had this discussion before, I know.
3) after spending $thousands on instrument training, anyone is perturbed to spend $20 on paper for anything
AggieMike88
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The original "I don't know it all" of aviation.
If is.
I still laugh at the memory of the Chinese aviation students from the local academy saw the one in the club Skylane when 55WB was on display at the air show.
"Uhhh, 'scuse pleez. What is big scleen?" (It's a NAV/COM GPS)
"Ohhh... we don't have that. And what is blue knob?"
EppyGA
Touchdown! Greaser!
I did my IA check ride using my iPad with ForeFlight. I also brought a Low Enroute chart and plates printed from AirNav and handed those to the DPE to hold in case I needed them.
MauleSkinner
Touchdown! Greaser!
I, as an examiner, would be more disappointed if you showed up for a checkride with resources that you never used or have no intention of using than if you showed up with just electronic charts and a good plan of action for fail-down.
brcase
En-Route
My DPE says about 60% of applicants that he has show up with an Ipad (or simlar device) fail the check ride. It isn't specifically because of the device, but because when it fails they can't do some basic things like determine a heading to an alternate airport, determine fuel required to get there, determine their location.
Most of my students opt to leave the Ipad at home, or only use it for the flight planning.
Brian
Most of my students opt to leave the Ipad at home, or only use it for the flight planning.
Brian
bullwinkle
Pattern Altitude
Sure, but what if you didn't plan to talk to ATC on the flight (and thus didn't write down the freq) and then suddenly found a need to talk to them? I can envision plenty of scenarios where you'd need to talk on a freq you didn't have written or memorized when your EFB goes dark or you chart blows away.
EDIT: Obviously this is not really a problem for an instrument flight where you are in contact with ATC, but for a VFR checkride...?
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JasonM
Pattern Altitude
I write down the freq's all the time. Even if flying VFR and not planning on talking to anyone or getting flight following or IFR. Just something I have always done. Heck I even jot down my local airport freq's when doing pattern work in the event I have a brain fart.
This is actually more of a problem when IFR than VFR. VFR you dont need to talk to anyone most of the time.
It is prob. a good idea to have some sort of backup like an Iphone as well. I need to work on that one, but I do have a G1000 with all those goodies which is just as sufficient and legal.
MauleSkinner
Touchdown! Greaser!
...and the concept of "dumbing down" for the checkride seems foolish to me to start with. If you're not comfortable enough to be using something for the checkride, you really have no business using it in real life.
petrolero
Pattern Altitude
I used FF on my IR check ride and the DPE said it is perfectly fine. In fact, he said he had ditched paper as well.
But I did carry a backup iPad too. I had it up to date and ready to go. If he had failed my main iPad I would have swapped and kept on going.
But I did carry a backup iPad too. I had it up to date and ready to go. If he had failed my main iPad I would have swapped and kept on going.