Windows 10 Free Upgrade.....

I have installed Windows 10 on three of my computers and so far all my software still works. I don't play solitaire on the computer, though, only on my iPad. This is a pretty innocuous upgrade. I am not sure why it would drive anyone to apple.
 
I have installed Windows 10 on three of my computers and so far all my software still works. I don't play solitaire on the computer, though, only on my iPad. This is a pretty innocuous upgrade. I am not sure why it would drive anyone to apple.

It might depend on whether you're one of the unlucky ones whose computer was rendered unusable by one of the forced updates. (See link in post #110.)

Some of us just don't trust Microsoft with complete control over our computers.

I don't have any objection to their charging for software. However, if they want to go to a subscription model, I would prefer to pay a subscription fee for security updates for Windows 7 beyond the announced sunset date.
 
I think Apple may wind up making more money from Windows 10 than Microsoft does.

Rich


Apple may yet screw the pooch with El Capitan. It certainly doesn't seem to add much to their game over Yosemite and they keep trying (like everyone else) to turn your laptop and desktop machines into "cloud" dumb terminals, which is maybe what I want from a tablet or phone-tablet (iPhone 6+ here, my iPad isn't getting much love for anything but Foreflight these days, or when I decide to take my glasses off late at night and want a bigger screen), but not what I really want in a desktop OS.

Right now I'm still incredibly ****ed about them dropping Aperture. Photos App is complete crap in comparison and since I'm not playing "cloud" at over $2/GB for something I get a Terrabyte of from MSFT already along with personal O365, there's a serious bug in Photos that won't allow you to DELETE photos off of iOS devices after you import them, and my iOS devices are all whining that they're running out of space. It used to be a set and forget checkbox in Aperture. Import and remove the dang things. No more. I don't want the originals in the Apple "cloud", and a lesser quality one in the device. I want to take the photo and import it into the home Mac and remove it from the device. Not allowed anymore...

Right now OSs are all the choice of the lesser evils. Linux? No. Windows 8.1/10? Meh. Apple? Barely not annoying me enough to throw it out in the trash can. Especially when you factor in the total trash that iTunes continued to be for a decade. What an utter piece of crap bloatware it is.

They all suck bad. Apple just sucks a tiny bit less and costs a bit more.
 
I have installed Windows 10 on three of my computers and so far all my software still works. I don't play solitaire on the computer, though, only on my iPad. This is a pretty innocuous upgrade. I am not sure why it would drive anyone to apple.

Because some of us do not trust any big company with tracking everything we do on our personal computers. While it's objectionable enough on the Web, it's offensive on our desktop. For those that conduct any kind of business at home, the potential for disclosure of confidential information is pretty high. And I'm not paid to be a "troubleshooter" for any software manufacturer.

At least give me the option to turn off data collection and submission.

Apple may yet screw the pooch with El Capitan. It certainly doesn't seem to add much to their game over Yosemite and they keep trying (like everyone else) to turn your laptop and desktop machines into "cloud" dumb terminals, which is maybe what I want from a tablet or phone-tablet (iPhone 6+ here, my iPad isn't getting much love for anything but Foreflight these days, or when I decide to take my glasses off late at night and want a bigger screen), but not what I really want in a desktop OS.

Right now I'm still incredibly ****ed about them dropping Aperture. Photos App is complete crap in comparison and since I'm not playing "cloud" at over $2/GB for something I get a Terrabyte of from MSFT already along with personal O365, there's a serious bug in Photos that won't allow you to DELETE photos off of iOS devices after you import them, and my iOS devices are all whining that they're running out of space. It used to be a set and forget checkbox in Aperture. Import and remove the dang things. No more. I don't want the originals in the Apple "cloud", and a lesser quality one in the device. I want to take the photo and import it into the home Mac and remove it from the device. Not allowed anymore...

Right now OSs are all the choice of the lesser evils. Linux? No. Windows 8.1/10? Meh. Apple? Barely not annoying me enough to throw it out in the trash can. Especially when you factor in the total trash that iTunes continued to be for a decade. What an utter piece of crap bloatware it is.

They all suck bad. Apple just sucks a tiny bit less and costs a bit more.

Yep. At least Apple's stated philosophy - unlike Google and now MS - is not to track everything you do and try to think for you. There's some data to suggest that use of computers and smartphones leads to decline in cognitive abilities of users.... which is fine if your business goal is to make folks dependent (or for nefarious political purposes), but not fine if the goal is making folks smarter and more able to make their own decisions.

Apple may be moving that way, too, but tends not to mine personal data and store it on their servers (where it becomes their data). And don't count on government/politicians to do anything to curb it for the obvious reason.
 
I have installed Windows 10 on three of my computers and so far all my software still works. I don't play solitaire on the computer, though, only on my iPad. This is a pretty innocuous upgrade. I am not sure why it would drive anyone to apple.

Mainly because the potential for catastrophic events as a result of upgrades is much higher on Windows, because MS doesn't control the hardware nor most of the software on the systems. Some systems may upgrade seamlessly, others will become unusable, and many in the middle will upgrade "successfully" except for some program the user absolutely must have working.

For someone who uses their computer as a tool, rather than a toy, a day or a week lost because a forced upgrade or update that they never asked for in the first place hosed their system in some way may be enough to push them over to Mac, for whom these sort of events, though not unheard of, are less common because of the tighter control that they exercise over both hardware and software.

Windows has never even tried to exercise that degree of control over individual systems, which makes their decision to force-install updates a very unwise one. When someone gets to work and tries to use their computer and finds that some forced update bricked it, without even giving them notice so they could back up the existing system first; and it costs them hundreds or thousands of dollars in tech fees and however many hours of productivity to fix it, any alternative starts looking good.

I don't especially care for the Mac user interface, but I could live with it. The real reason I dislike Macs is that I don't like Apple's overbearing, paternalistic stewardship of the machines. I want to control the machine, I want to choose the software, I want to tell it when to update (or not to update at all), I don't want it suggesting "apps" to me, I don't want to have any forced ongoing relationship with the OS manufacturer, and I certainly don't want my machine phoning home to share information about how I use it. I want to own and control the machine, period.

Until now, MS has made that pretty easy to do. Even the creepier aspects of Win 8 could be easily switched off, and many of them never initialized in the first place unless the user was silly enough to configure the machine to use an MS account rather than a local account for login. Windows 10 seeks to make avoiding the creepiness impossible to do. MS wants to exert the same (or possibly even more) control over Windows computers as Apple does over Macs.

The problem is that even once you get past the ideological and creepiness objections to that sort of control over your local machine, the practical truth is that MS sucks at it. The many horror stories of Win10 update catastrophes bear witness to that. If you're going to have no choice but to share control over your computer with an overlord in the ether, then it may as well be an overlord that doesn't suck at it.

And then there are the privacy concerns, of course. Microsoft seems to want to engage in a battle with Google to see which company can be the bigger data-mining dirtbags. Apple still pretends, at least, to honor users' privacy.

And once you get past all the above concerns, what does Win10 give you? The hope that once installed, all your software will still work? I have a one hundred percent chance of that by refusing the update altogether.

What I probably will do is wait about six months to learn from others' experiences, as well as to give the hackers enough time to figure out how to switch off MS's datamining, then buy or build a new computer with Win10, install the software I need on it, and taking it on a thorough shakedown cruise before switching over to it for production work.

But I may just switch to a Mac. The software I need will run on either. Which system I choose depends a lot on whether MS backs off on such things as forced updates. If MS insist on going down that road, I'll probably switch to Mac. Apple may be even more controlling, but at least they don't suck at it. But if MS backs off and lets me continue to own my own computers, then I'll probably stay with Windows.

Rich
 
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I still don't get where the forced upgrade is coming from. A couple of months ago I clicked the little app and said I'd like Windows 10. Yesterday the little window popped up on my desktop telling me my upgrade was ready and I could schedule it. I'm not ready on that machine yet so I just exited it. I suppose if I go down this morning and find that the machine upgraded itself overnight, I'll be upset. I'll let you know in a half hour or so.

The laptop I'm on now has been running 10 for a couple of weeks now. Only complaint so far is the touchpad settings keep reverting if I reboot and I have to reset them.
 
Mainly because the potential for catastrophic events as a result of upgrades is much higher on Windows, because MS doesn't control the hardware nor most of the software on the systems. Some systems may upgrade seamlessly, others will become unusable, and many in the middle will upgrade "successfully" except for some program the user absolutely must have working.

For someone who uses their computer as a tool, rather than a toy, a day or a week lost because a forced upgrade or update that they never asked for in the first place hosed their system in some way may be enough to push them over to Mac, for whom these sort of events, though not unheard of, are less common because of the tighter control that they exercise over both hardware and software.

Windows has never even tried to exercise that degree of control over individual systems, which makes their decision to force-install updates a very unwise one. When someone gets to work and tries to use their computer and finds that some forced update bricked it, without even giving them notice so they could back up the existing system first; and it costs them hundreds or thousands of dollars in tech fees and however many hours of productivity to fix it, any alternative starts looking good.

I don't especially care for the Mac user interface, but I could live with it. The real reason I dislike Macs is that I don't like Apple's overbearing, paternalistic stewardship of the machines. I want to control the machine, I want to choose the software, I want to tell it when to update (or not to update at all), I don't want it suggesting "apps" to me, I don't want to have any forced ongoing relationship with the OS manufacturer, and I certainly don't want my machine phoning home to share information about how I use it. I want to own and control the machine, period.

Until now, MS has made that pretty easy to do. Even the creepier aspects of Win 8 could be easily switched off, and many of them never initialized in the first place unless the user was silly enough to configure the machine to use an MS account rather than a local account for login. Windows 10 seeks to make avoiding the creepiness impossible to do. MS wants to exert the same (or possibly even more) control over Windows computers as Apple does over Macs.

The problem is that even once you get past the ideological and creepiness objections to that sort of control over your local machine, the practical truth is that MS sucks at it. The many horror stories of Win10 update catastrophes bear witness to that. If you're going to have no choice but to share control over your computer with an overlord in the ether, then it may as well be an overlord that doesn't suck at it.

And then there are the privacy concerns, of course. Microsoft seems to want to engage in a battle with Google to see which company can be the bigger data-mining dirtbags. Apple still pretends, at least, to honor users' privacy.

And once you get past all the above concerns, what does Win10 give you? The hope that once installed, all your software will still work? I have a one hundred percent chance of that by refusing the update altogether.

What I probably will do is wait about six months to learn from others' experiences, as well as to give the hackers enough time to figure out how to switch off MS's datamining, then buy or build a new computer with Win10, install the software I need on it, and taking it on a thorough shakedown cruise before switching over to it for production work.

But I may just switch to a Mac. The software I need will run on either. Which system I choose depends a lot on whether MS backs off on such things as forced updates. If MS insist on going down that road, I'll probably switch to Mac. Apple may be even more controlling, but at least they don't suck at it. But if MS backs off and lets me continue to own my own computers, then I'll probably stay with Windows.

Rich


Pro and Enterprise gives you control over updates. Home does not. I understand that concern. Still, most of the business software I deal with is Windows platform. What I don't understand is why you would go to a Mac, only to have to run Parallels to get your Windows apps to work. How is that switching to Mac? It is great that all of your software is available on both platforms, but for most business users I deal with, that isn't true. I had one client declare "my hands will never touch a Windows machine". The law firm he worked for really wanted his specialized skillet, so we installed a Mac with Parallels running Windows. I guess he really showed MS who's boss. As far as privacy concerns; time will tell, but MS anonymizes the data it does collect and you can turn off the collection (search for "Stop getting to know me"). Also, you don't have to use a cloud account. If you do allow collection, Cortland and the OS will customize the user experience, apply context to searches, etc.
 
I still don't get where the forced upgrade is coming from. A couple of months ago I clicked the little app and said I'd like Windows 10. Yesterday the little window popped up on my desktop telling me my upgrade was ready and I could schedule it. I'm not ready on that machine yet so I just exited it. I suppose if I go down this morning and find that the machine upgraded itself overnight, I'll be upset. I'll let you know in a half hour or so.

The laptop I'm on now has been running 10 for a couple of weeks now. Only complaint so far is the touchpad settings keep reverting if I reboot and I have to reset them.

I'm not just talking about the Win10 installation. I'm talking about future updates, which will be mandatory.

Rich
 
I'm not just talking about the Win10 installation. I'm talking about future updates, which will be mandatory.

Rich

Ok, as an aside my desktop machine is still on Windows 8.1 this morning.
 
Pro and Enterprise gives you control over updates. Home does not. I understand that concern.

Not indefinitely. They can only be delayed on Pro and Enterprise. I want either complete control over the machine, or for the company to which I yield control to actually be competent at it.

Still, most of the business software I deal with is Windows platform. What I don't understand is why you would go to a Mac, only to have to run Parallels to get your Windows apps to work. How is that switching to Mac? It is great that all of your software is available on both platforms, but for most business users I deal with, that isn't true. I had one client declare "my hands will never touch a Windows machine". The law firm he worked for really wanted his specialized skillet, so we installed a Mac with Parallels running Windows. I guess he really showed MS who's boss. As far as privacy concerns; time will tell, but MS anonymizes the data it does collect and you can turn off the collection (search for "Stop getting to know me"). Also, you don't have to use a cloud account. If you do allow collection, Cortland and the OS will customize the user experience, apply context to searches, etc.

The only software that I happen to need will run on either platform. Some of it will even run on Linux, but not well enough to be production-ready. It's almost all Adobe stuff that I use for Web design and photo / video editing.

Rich
 
Not indefinitely. They can only be delayed on Pro and Enterprise. I want either complete control over the machine, or for the company to which I yield control to actually be competent at it.

Rich


Ok, I am not going to say I don't understand your desire for control and that you have the skill set to manage the risk. That said, for the vast majority of Windows users, it is a really, really bad idea not to perform regular security updates, so I understand where MS is coming from on this. For work computers, it is essential that updates are vetted and managed in a controlled manner for reasons others have mentioned above, hence them adding that feature to Pro and Enterprise. From my experience, the only computers I would not update regularly are purpose built servers/computers that don't directly browse the Internet. Servers need a lot more vetting, so, they usually don't get updated often, unless there is a driver for it, though truthfully, most servers should be updated more often then they are.
 
I installed W10 on the laptops we took to Europe with us. Just don't use the defaults for security and opt out of the automatic sharing of everything with MS. I don't care about their cloud apps, I want all apps and data on my computer and nowhere else that I don't know about. It's not that I don't trust MS, but, actually, I don't trust them. They want all that data to better try and sell me stuff. Office 365 isn't happening on any of my machines, and I'll be darned if I'll let them snoop around in my files. Those are mine, not theirs.

Now, how does it work? Pretty darned well and the machines boot up fast. I hated Windows 8 and 8.1. Windows 10 is a distinct improvement. I've left my Windows 7 laptop alone for now. Maybe later, but I don't have any significant problems with Windows 7. I'll put Windows 10 on my Intel NUC after we get home from this trip. It's running 8.1 and I'll be happy to change that.
 
Ok, I am not going to say I don't understand your desire for control and that you have the skill set to manage the risk. That said, for the vast majority of Windows users, it is a really, really bad idea not to perform regular security updates, so I understand where MS is coming from on this. For work computers, it is essential that updates are vetted and managed in a controlled manner for reasons others have mentioned above, hence them adding that feature to Pro and Enterprise. From my experience, the only computers I would not update regularly are purpose built servers/computers that don't directly browse the Internet. Servers need a lot more vetting, so, they usually don't get updated often, unless there is a driver for it, though truthfully, most servers should be updated more often then they are.

I install most of the important or critical updates. The problems are (1) that I want to do it on my schedule, because I always clone the hard drive immediately prior to running Windows Update; and (2) that some updates are problematic, and I may want to postpone those updates' installation indefinitely. That's an easy thing to do on 8.1 or earlier, but not on 10.

If MS wants to protect those who are incapable of managing their own machines from their own ignorance, good for them. But give those of us who are capable the ability to keep doing so. I've had systems borked by updates quite a few times over the years. My habit of cloning the drive before running updates always made it a mere inconvenience. But now that won't work anymore because even if I switch to the clone after a bad update, MS is going to keep trying to push the problematic update.

Rich
 
And I'm not paid to be a "troubleshooter" for any software manufacturer.

Those days are long over. We are into the software rental world now. Everyone is a forever beta tester. Deployment of new versions is a continuous stream, and versioning is just a number.


Yep. At least Apple's stated philosophy - unlike Google and now MS - is not to track everything you do and try to think for you.

...



Apple may be moving that way, too, but tends not to mine personal data and store it on their servers (where it becomes their data). And don't count on government/politicians to do anything to curb it for the obvious reason.


That's gone too. Apple is pushing everything to iCloud as hard as they dare. Their desktop suite saves to it by default, and various other tracking is constantly going on. You can't even get an OS update without logging into your AppleID which in theory is personal, and stays with you. I haven't seen a public statement like that out of them about privacy in many years.

AppleID management is a significant problem for adoption of Mac in controlled business IT environments. The company has to either make a billion fake AppleIDs for staff and control those, or allow staff to use their own. If the company buys software via the Apple ecosystem, if they buy it under the fake AppleID they really control it. If they buy it under the user's personal AppleID, the user can walk out the door with it.

They have recently added a lot of tools for companies to manage and deploy iOS who buy mass quantities of mobile devices but their desktop system is hideously broken for business environments that have to control the desktop. One has to go to third party software to manage the Macs and it is NOT cheap.
 
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