Wind Minimums

itsjames2011

itsjames2011

Pre-takeoff checklist
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James
Hey Everybody,

As we have moved into fall up in New England, it seems like every day is 10G20 15G25 etc. I went and got a couple hours of crosswind beef up with a CFI gusting in the mid 20's and it was a pretty uneventful flight. Three or four times last week I found myself coming home to 20 knot gusts that were 30-40 degrees off the runway so we'll call 12kts the average crosswind component. I seem to have no trouble landing the airplane when I get caught in it but I find that I'm hesitant to go up when it's already nasty and blowing. Is this normal at 300ish hours? I'm thinking it's one of those things I need to just get out and tackle head on until the comfort level builds.

I'd appreciate some insight.

James
 
Everyone feels differently about winds. Some people find 5 kts straight down the runway to be too much wind.

Wind is something you get used to. It never bothered me, but gusting crosswinds were part of my training from day one. Keep doing it and you'll get more comfortable.
 
Here's the funny part. I hit up that CFI a week or so later to come ride along in the same conditions and he told me to save my money and have fun. I'm really thinking it's unfortunately all in my head.
 
The wind is what it is. While you can set limits on what you prefer to fly in, those generally are takeoff limits. You can limit the forecasts that you will fly towards, but "forecast" and "actual" are not necessarily the same thing.

Seems like your CFI gave you a vote of confidence. Practice a little more, or go somewhere and land when you get there.
 
I'm at about 220 hours now and my personal limits are 25 knots, and a max direct crosswind of 10-12 knots.

My home airport has 3 runways so I don't normally have to deal with an excessive direct crosswind even if the peak wind speed is up there. But the bigger reason for not flying in high winds is that the turbulence gets to the point that it's not even enjoyable to be up in it. And even if it's straight down the runway, it makes the airplane do funny things. It's good practice, but it's not fun.
 
Go out and fly. Only that will make you more comfortable with winds.
 
fiveoboy01 said:
I'm at about 220 hours now and my personal limits are 25 knots, and a max direct crosswind of 10-12 knots.

My home airport has 3 runways so I don't normally have to deal with an excessive direct crosswind even if the peak wind speed is up there. But the bigger reason for not flying in high winds is that the turbulence gets to the point that it's not even enjoyable to be up in it. And even if it's straight down the runway, it makes the airplane do funny things. It's good practice, but it's not fun.
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Reminds me of Saturday. Departed KCEF wind was 310@17G23 and winds at 3k were out of 330@40kt. I was making a 35nm hop down to KIJD(Windham CT) and I have never had such a terrible ride. It was the bumpiest day I have ever encountered since I got my ticket. Flight ended successfully with 12g18 almost straight down r/w 27 but I have to admit, I was dreading the ride home the rest of the day. Why is it that when the weather sucks on the way out, it always seems to get worse right when it's time to go home? :mad2:
 
My biggest concern is the gusts and wind sheer. At my home field we are at 3000' and the terrain around the airport makes for some intersting approaches even when the winds are only like 8kts. I'd say my biggest limitation is the gust factor. If its something like 20G24 I dont mind that. But when its 10G22 I know it will not be fun and honestly feels very risky.
 
DavidWhite said:
Go out and fly. Only that will make you more comfortable with winds.
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Yup.

All else fails just go around and carry enough fuel you can go else where of needed.

Wind is the friend of the airplane.
 
Go out and fly,if the AIDS pick up past your limits ,find an airport with more favorable winds down the runway.
 
James,
300/600/900 hours, all levels of pilots still have concerns over high winds and gusty conditions. I knew of a Citation X co pilot that would get worked up over a 15 knot xwind.
The best thing you can do is make sure you are thoroughly trained in lots of different conditions. While I still don't look forward to 20+ knot crosswinds, I have landed in them enough to know I can do it.
I would recommend grabbing your instructor on some days were the wind is out of your comfort zone, and practice until it becomes second nature.
 
And after landing, don't forget to keep "flying" the airplane until you get chocked on the ramp. Too many relax when they pull off the active only to find that mom likes to smite the unwarry during the taxi back.
 
Depends on several things. Gusts along with a strong cross wind can cause a lot of trouble, regardless of pic time, especially in a tail dragger. You have to like being thrown around the cockpit, having your head hit the overhead when it gets windy ,20 -30 or more.) then there's the degree heading. If the wind is at 90 degrees or close, blowing 25-30 in a 180 cessna for instance , gusting, you can have your hands full and maybe screw up the airplane. In a Stearman your in a real bad situation, better find another place to land. Usually turbulence acompanys windy days which makes me do something else besides fly.
 
So long as you have enough rudder, you can do it. No matter what, keep the plane lined up with its direction of flight, using, of course, rudders and ailerons.

Be ready to go around.

If its really bad, then try to find an airport with a better runway alignment or less wind. Talk to ATC. Get some help on that one....
 
Your minimums are your minimums. Doesn't matter what anyone else says. If you aren't comfortable don't fly. If you want to go up on a windy day, take a CFI up with you and have him work with you.
 
Jimmy cooper said:
Depends on several things. Gusts along with a strong cross wind can cause a lot of trouble, regardless of pic time, especially in a tail dragger. You have to like being thrown around the cockpit, having your head hit the overhead when it gets windy ,20 -30 or more.) then there's the degree heading. If the wind is at 90 degrees or close, blowing 25-30 in a 180 cessna for instance , gusting, you can have your hands full and maybe screw up the airplane. In a Stearman your in a real bad situation, better find another place to land. Usually turbulence acompanys windy days which makes me do something else besides fly.
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Just what you're used to, learned how to fly in a tail dragger and I feel more comfortable in crosswinds and sketchy conditions 2 pointing in a tailwheel.
 
Am I the only one that thinks this thread should be titled "Wind Maximums?"
 
fiveoboy01 said:
...But the bigger reason for not flying in high winds is that the turbulence gets to the point that it's not even enjoyable to be up in it. And even if it's straight down the runway, it makes the airplane do funny things. It's good practice, but it's not fun.
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+1

This is exactly how I feel. I know that I can land a plane safely in just about any crosswind component within the plane's limits (17kts). But it's not fun, it makes it work. And since this is supposed to be fun, I would just rather stay on the ground and wait for another day.
 
It's not just the landing part to be worried about. Strong surface winds usually mean turbulence at altitude. I've found that's the major deterrent to fly in strong winds. It's almost always turbulent and I fly for fun so I'll pass on the windy days.
 
You also want to keep in mind passenger comfort. You could be comfortable flying in 40G50 but will you'll probably get knocked around and so will your passengers. Generally I don't like to take people up if winds are greater than 15 kts simply because I low they won't have a good time getting beat up in the air.
 
jordane93 said:
You also want to keep in mind passenger comfort. You could be comfortable flying in 40G50 but will you'll probably get knocked around and so will your passengers. Generally I don't like to take people up if winds are greater than 15 kts simply because I low they won't have a good time getting beat up in the air.
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I agree 100 percent. I fly to enjoy it not to damage the airplane or be thrown all around the cockpit. Not to mention that the CFI I take with me these days may not be as good at crosswinds as I am. Many of them today hardly have much more time than the student.
 
You'll get more used to it as you get more experience with it. As long as you're not in a tail dragger, cross winds don't really pose a significant hazard, and most light planes by the time the winds are strong enough, you can land on a perpendicular taxiway. Remember, there are always options, if you ask you usually get permission.
 
Fearless Tower said:
I didn't use to give the wind much thought.....until I got the Waco. Amazing how much more effect the wind has on a biplane.
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It's not just the biplane part, but the tail dragger part as well. Once you plant a tricycle, it wants to correct a ground loop force, not so in a taildragger, the force just gets worse as you slow. Thing I hated about having a biplane was having the visibility disadvantages of both high an low wing, with none of the advantages.
 
Depends on the terrain too. I find that here in the Ozarks, if there is ten or more on the surface, it is really bumpy above. Not fun at all watching the ball and airspeed indicator swing wildly while banking in the pattern. All the real pilots will tell you to man up, but I prefer to stay on the ground in those conditions. On the other hand, 10-20 on the surface over farm land can still result in a remarkably smooth ride above, and the approaches and landings can be easily managed.
 
The bi plane exposes a lot more area to a cross wind as it has a much bigger profile to the cross wind. The lower wing is not very far from the ground and the gear ( Stearman) is high and narrow. This is why cadets during WW2 were trained , for the most part in big grass circles with the windsock in the center. Ground looping it can be very expensive quickly , not to mention running off the runway, taking out a light, etc. I had a lot of tail wheel time when I bought mine and still had a very healthy respect for it on windy days. Over 15 mph, I stayed home.same with the 195 cessna which was even hairier. However I have heard many tales of cross wind heroes but have seen very few.
 
We don't get a ton of strong winds around here, but I've been getting more and more comfortable with them when I've encountered them on trips. More often than not I actually make really nice landings after fighting it all the way down. Wakes me up and keeps me from getting lazy.

Just upped my personal max the other day though, and at Catalina no less. I had dropped some friends off there and was going to pick them back up again. Winds were reported at 280 21G30 for rwy22. That's a 25knot crosswind component. I was glad I was empty for the landing cause it took somewhat of a fight, and full rudder, but the landing was good.
 
StinkBug said:
We don't get a ton of strong winds around here, but I've been getting more and more comfortable with them when I've encountered them on trips. More often than not I actually make really nice landings after fighting it all the way down. Wakes me up and keeps me from getting lazy.

Just upped my personal max the other day though, and at Catalina no less. I had dropped some friends off there and was going to pick them back up again. Winds were reported at 280 21G30 for rwy22. That's a 25knot crosswind component. I was glad I was empty for the landing cause it took somewhat of a fight, and full rudder, but the landing was good.
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:confused: I don't have a whiz wheel in front of me but those numbers say 5kt crosswind component to me.:dunno:
 
I pretty much have different opinions for different days. If it's a joy flight I may not go up just cause lots of wind on the ground generally means more winds up top. But if I'm going somewhere for something I'll typically go. I'm pretty comfortable in most wind conditions and haven't found myself in a no go day due to wind only yet. That isn't to say I wouldn't just haven't encountered it yet. I pretty much look at several factors when the wind picks up. One is there another airport I can go to with it more down the runway and two how long is the runway? If the runway is really long I may go for a flapless Or less flap landing with a higher speed for more rudder authority and shear protection. If it's not I'll have a back up. Generally with wind I'll try and if it doesn't look good just go around! But it's all about comfort as time progressed and I had more time, and more time in type I've gotten more comfortable with higher winds

Side note: am I the only one who finds my landings are better on windy days? I think it must because I'm more focused and trying harder, I've noticed this both at work and flying my personal plane
 
Henning said:
:confused: I don't have a whiz wheel in front of me but those numbers say 5kt crosswind component to me.:dunno:
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If 30kt gusts at a 60* angle to the runway say 5kt crosswind component to you then you might wanna go find your whiz wheel.
 
mkosmo said:
Won't my metal landing calculator do this for me?
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I just remember 30 deg 1/2 45 deg 3/4 60 deg is all. Its simple enough to pick a runway and know the xwind component before the atis broadcast is complete. Shot 10 landings today in the 18g22 winds 60deg off the nose. The big epiphany came for me when I stopped staring at the wind sock and just decided to do whatever the plane wants to maintain centerline. Today was a confidence booster. It's amazing how many problems can be solved by just not over thinking them.
 
itsjames2011 said:
I just remember 30 deg 1/2 45 deg 3/4 60 deg is all. Its simple enough to pick a runway and know the xwind component before the atis broadcast is complete. Shot 10 landings today in the 18g22 winds 60deg off the nose. The big epiphany came for me when I stopped staring at the wind sock and just decided to do whatever the plane wants to maintain centerline. Today was a confidence booster. It's amazing how many problems can be solved by just not over thinking them.
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Oh of course, I was just kidding. The sock is more often different than what I'm experiencing anyways, either due to mechanical differences or air masses not quite yet making it to my location or the sock yet.
 
Henning said:
:confused: I don't have a whiz wheel in front of me but those numbers say 5kt crosswind component to me.:dunno:
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Might want to find your whiz wheel.

Edit: Beat by another poster. What I get for not reading it all.
 
To me, it's not a hard and fast number of xwind knots (although when it's getting up toward max demonstrated, I start to think about it more) but more a question of whether I can remain stabilized.

It's not just about xwind component. The worst wind I ever had was not really that strong but was very turbulent near the ground with a low-level shear. I had to go around once because the shear got me all screwed up and I couldn't maintain centerline. The second time I got on a long final, got stabilized, prepared better for the shear, and still had a hell of a time holding centerline. It was just squirrelly AF (look that up in the AIM :D ). That was only about a 15 to 18 kt xwind component but the overall winds were over 30 knots and that churned things up badly as the wind passed over buildings to the west of KAPA. That also created a very low level shear.

I had been mentally prepping for these winds since the night before when I saw them forecast on the TAF. I had plans to find a more wind-favorable runway at another airport if I couldn't land at KAPA (I was coming in from KADS in Dallas). Knowing I had alternatives allowed me to attempt the xwind landing at KAPA and I was happy to find out that the second time I was able to plant it on the pavement and keep it under control. I was really glad I was solo that day because pax would have been evacuating their guts.
 
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Seems like just about everybody in our flying club cancelled this weekend because of winds. If my instructor was available I probably would have gone up - had some nice 18G30 at one point.

My approach to wind is similar to advice given here - pax who aren't seasoned to the turbulence that can be caused by gusting conditions probably shouldn't go up with me on a windy day. And for me personally, if I haven't gone up for a while on a day where the gust factor is more than about 10kts, and/or there is some shear involved, I'll grab my instructor for a refresher. Otherwise, I think winds should be respected, but not feared.

I remember one flight many years ago, flying back from western PA to Caldwell, NJ after Christmas, just the wife and I in a 172SP in an early evening (but dark) trip back home. Most of the flight was uneventful, and I remember very smooth. Forecast was for some light wind on arrival. As we descended below 3000 to dip under the NY B, holy hell did we start getting the crap beat out of us. Head bangers, yawing, the works - felt like the washing machine had been turned on to overdrive for the last 20nm or so. By the time we got to the field, the tower was closed,
so I had only the AWOS to go by. Had to do a go-around on the first pass, but managed to grease it in on the second.

I did tend to train on nasty, windy days during my primary days, so I built up a tolerance to wind and turbulence. I've found that I recall the muscle memory of keeping the nose aligned with the runway pretty quickly, even if it's been months since I've had a good x-wind approach. My recommendation - go up, even if you need to grab an instructor, on those nasty, gusty days. I've learned to give forecasts a wide berth when it comes to the winds portion - and would rather be prepared for the worst while hoping for the best.
 
Muttley said:
Fly in the wind as much as you can. Stay safe, make sure you have an out, but also challenge yourself to go up on these windy days.

Crosswinds take getting used to, but once you've practiced and gained the muscle memory and sight picture, you'll be surprised at how much crosswind you can handle. Plus you'll hopefully someday experience what it means for the airplane to run out of rudder, and then learn what you can do about it on the next landing.

I started in a Cessna 150 with a 5 knot crosswind limitation from my instructor and was really nervous in any wind. Not many years later I was comfortable landing a 15,000 lb twin turboprop in 30kt direct and gusting crosswind. (Hint: approach flaps, hold 140 kias to the threshold and keep flying it til you're in the chocks.)
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Landing a twin turbo prop is a whole different ball game from landing say, a champ or a 180 cessna, or a Stearman in a 30 gusting cross wind! Direct cross wind. Not even close!!! Totally different.
 
The only time I ever had a problem was at Marsh Harbor in the Bahamas. I departed VFR into on/off rainshowers in a Globe Swift. I intended to get up to an altitude where I could get an IFR clearance. Couldn't make it happen, so I returned to the airport. Right when I got back, a rain shower was blowing in with a nice 25 knot, gusting direct crosswind. The wind sock was stiff. I made the landing but I used up the entire width of the runway and I know I abused some tires. I would have gone somewhere else, but I either had to make the landing or venture off into the clouds/rain without a clearance.
 
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When it's G30 I have to really pay attention to what comes next. But I enjoy the challenge to my skills...

It's like using live ammunition.

Do it often enough to feel like I know what I'm doing?

Yes. That's a real milestone.
 
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