Will the new tax plan revitalize the Middle class and help Aviation?

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So you are saying there is an element of entitlement welfare that has crept in as the agency changed the rules?
 
Vince R said:
I hesitate to get all political on PoA, but I must be doing something wrong.

I’m a 1%-er and from everything the media tells me, I should be getting some sort of windfall. Yet my accountant tells me I should pay about $30K more in Federal taxes next year, and my home is likely to drop a few hundred thousand in value because I happen to live in a high-tax blue state.

Not sure I can afford much more of this kind of “help”.
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Huh? I’m also a 1%’r in a blue state and I’m getting about a $50K/year tax break. (Still not in favor of the bill and will be using half of that money to donate to challengers against GOP members who voted for it.)

But still - if you’re a 1%’r and paying more - get a new tax attorney.
 
I don’t think the changes in the tax law are going to help or hurt the middle class enough to make any difference at all, certainly not enough to make a statistical difference in GA flying activity. It’s not just lack of money that keeps people from learning.
 
bflynn said:
I'm just curious ... where do you think that money goes? The wealthy don't bury it in their back yard or stuff it in their mattresses.
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Almost unequivocally it goes into financial investments that don't benefit the worker or wage growth at all and benefit almost no one except the banks and financial industry and clearly the investor his/her self. This is why the stock market will and has done amazingly well in the run up to this. People are very smart and have long sinced realized that with a 10 year treasury bond yielding just 2.4 percent and banks giving you nothing to keep money in their that the only real opportunity for growth above these messily returns is mostly through stocks. Two things are unquestionably true right now, the wealthiest 1% is more wealthy now compared to the middle and lower class than anytime since the Great Depression, and real wage growth in America has not improved since before the 70's. The wage gap is enormous right now and that's the real concern. I'm all for tax cuts but once again I think the policy makers missed an opportunity to impact wage growth. Several prominent companies have already said they will use their tax breaks to buy back stock thus essentially saying, "we will not raise wages we will just benefit the wealthy even more." Again it's nice that the government is allowing them to use more of their money but without stipulations for how this money must be used, much of it won't be used to benefit the working class wages. No real wage growth means people see small or no real benefit from the tax cuts and therefore become more disenfranchised. No real wage growth means less people are able to be taxed at higher incomes... which means the government can't collect as much money.... which means they borrow more.... which means the defect increases.... which means we go further into debt.....which means the government can't afford to pay for as many programs( maybe a good thing) and the cycle continues...

You'll soon see Republicans saying we now will need to cut large portions of the entitlement programs( which based on the amount of waste in these programs I'm fine with cutting waste.) Except, what becomes of those people who may have needed these programs to move up the income ladder?....so the cycle continues.

Without corporate stipulations, the government is operating on a system of trust that the wealthy will do the "right" thing with all this money and use it to create wealth for others... Does that seem like the world we live in today?
 
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I read the 1031 exchange was altered to only include real estate in the new tax bill. If so, the tax deferred exchanges of aircraft will no longer be allowed. time to trade up is now. ..
 
Actually, the real worry I have is the effect ton the deficit. I've seen what big deficits do to places like Greece and Puerto Rico. I really don't want to see that here. The only things I can see to do to get past it are either default or devalue the currency. Both are out and out disasters. We just can't keep living beyond our means forever. The problem is the big drivers of spending are Social Security, Medicare, and the Military. All are wildly popular, so no politician with carrier aspirations will even consider cutting any of these. And around we go.
 
People will be able to upgrade from gold plate to solid gold faucets in their personal 757s.
 
redhandle said:
Huh? I’m also a 1%’r in a blue state and I’m getting about a $50K/year tax break. (Still not in favor of the bill and will be using half of that money to donate to challengers against GOP members who voted for it.)

But still - if you’re a 1%’r and paying more - get a new tax attorney.
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Excellent. By donating the money, you'll be creating part of a job for someone. That is why you have the money!
 
steingar said:
Actually, the real worry I have is the effect ton the deficit. I've seen what big deficits do to places like Greece and Puerto Rico. I really don't want to see that here. The only things I can see to do to get past it are either default or devalue the currency. Both are out and out disasters. We just can't keep living beyond our means forever. The problem is the big drivers of spending are Social Security, Medicare, and the Military. All are wildly popular, so no politician with carrier aspirations will even consider cutting any of these. And around we go.
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Over the 10 year horizon of this bill, it is said to 'increase the deficit by 1.5 Trillion'. That sounds like a big number until you look at how much the government takes in and spends every year. Over the same 10 year horizon, the federal government is going to spend 40 to 50 Trillion dollars. If they can't come up with 3-4% of savings on the spending side to make up for the slight decrease in revenues related to the tax bill, they are simply lacking the will to do so.
 
steingar said:
Actually, the real worry I have is the effect ton the deficit. I've seen what big deficits do to places like Greece and Puerto Rico. I really don't want to see that here. The only things I can see to do to get past it are either default or devalue the currency. Both are out and out disasters. We just can't keep living beyond our means forever. The problem is the big drivers of spending are Social Security, Medicare, and the Military. All are wildly popular, so no politician with carrier aspirations will even consider cutting any of these. And around we go.
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We just went through a period, Obama's presidency, where the national debt increased by $9 trillion over 8 years. Reports I've read say this bill will increase the debt by $1.5 trillion over 10 years, I'll take it. Also, after the Kennedy tax cuts, the Reagan tax cuts and the GW Bush tax cuts tax revenues increased dramatically, which I fully expect with this tax cut and think the $1.5 trillion number due to the cut is bogus. It's a spending problem, not a tax collection problem.
 
Fearless Tower said:
For once, I agree with you.

No tax plan will revitalize the ‘Middle Class’. That is a collective that is becoming as rare as General Aviation in this country.

This tax plan is a disaster. You may see a slight increase in jobs which is why it’s called ‘trickle-down’ economics. But, mark my words, by and large, the wealthy are simply going to pocket the savings and grow more wealth.

But it won’t be long lived. The market is due for a crash and that will very likely come in 2018. And then the Dems will rout the GOP in the midterms and then they will back us off one cliff and drive us at full speed over the other cliff.

America is pretty much screwed.
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Somebody has been watching too much CNN or MSNBC....
Take a chill pill...America is still better off than most other nations.
 
Vince R said:
I hesitate to get all political on PoA, but I must be doing something wrong.

I’m a 1%-er and from everything the media tells me, I should be getting some sort of windfall. Yet my accountant tells me I should pay about $30K more in Federal taxes next year, and my home is likely to drop a few hundred thousand in value because I happen to live in a high-tax blue state.

Not sure I can afford much more of this kind of “help”.
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Until you pay 1000% of your net worth (yes I know that’s mathematically impossible), there are people that are going be jealous and hate it. There are some people who if we raise their taxes by 10% would be happy if we raised others by 20%. Don’t ask me why?
I say congrats!
 
steingar said:
Actually, the real worry I have is the effect ton the deficit. I've seen what big deficits do to places like Greece and Puerto Rico. I really don't want to see that here. The only things I can see to do to get past it are either default or devalue the currency. Both are out and out disasters. We just can't keep living beyond our means forever. The problem is the big drivers of spending are Social Security, Medicare, and the Military. All are wildly popular, so no politician with carrier aspirations will even consider cutting any of these. And around we go.
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I agree with the worry about the Deficits. It's nice to see that you have come around now that it is the other side perpetuating them. But I still wonder why it was fine for the previous administration to run huge deficits. I guess that was because they could get away with blaming GWB.
 
Supply side/trickle-down economics has been de-bunked so many times... People have such short memories. As a member of the middle class, the 2 or 3 % extra that might, MIGHT be left in my paycheck, for a limited time no less, is laughable to me. The notion that Corporate America, already flush with cash, is suddenly going to get religion and start making more jobs?.. Also laughable. But hey, they'll take that money, and they'll take the deregulation, as paltry as it was, that was designed to keep them from looting the economy and driving it into a ditch like in 2007-2008 and they'll do it again. Rinse and repeat.
 
CJ Rader said:
Supply side/trickle-down economics has been de-bunked so many times... People have such short memories. As a member of the middle class, the 2 or 3 % extra that might, MIGHT be left in my paycheck, for a limited time no less, is laughable to me. The notion that Corporate America, already flush with cash, is suddenly going to get religion and start making more jobs?.. Also laughable. But hey, they'll take that money, and they'll take the deregulation, as paltry as it was, that was designed to keep them from looting the economy and driving it into a ditch like in 2007-2008 and they'll do it again. Rinse and repeat.
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So, I find your whole post fascinating, but one term particularly stands out, it is: "..keep them from looting the economy..". How is that done?
 
PaulS said:
So, I find your whole post fascinating, but one term particularly stands out, it is: "..keep them from looting the economy..". How is that done?
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The housing bubble. Predatory lending. Big banks, the notorious AIG among them, allowed to make risky bets with investor money. This along with other factors resulting in the Great Recession (maybe you heard about it) which devalued more than a couple of people's 401K's. Sounds like looting to me. Call it what you will. I stand by my equivocation and you can stand by your own.
 
CJ Rader said:
The housing bubble. Predatory lending. Big banks, the notorious AIG among them, allowed to make risky bets with investor money. This along with other factors resulting in the Great Recession (maybe you heard about it) which devalued more than a couple of people's 401K's. Sounds like looting to me. Call it what you will. I stand by my equivocation and you can stand by your own.
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I lost quite a lot in my 401K from that crash, but it has removed tremendously and grown into quite a sizeable amount, especially the last couple of years. This is how the stock market works. It's risky but how else as a "worker" would you be able to grow your retirement nest egg for retirement.
 
mscard88 said:
I lost quite a lot in my 401K from that crash, but it has removed tremendously and grown into quite a sizeable amount, especially the last couple of years. This is how the stock market works. It's risky but how else as a "worker" would you be able to grow your retirement nest egg for retirement.
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I agree with you on the normal functioning of a stock market. I too have made some money over the past couple of years. What I don't agree with is banks being allowed to make unnecessarily risky bets that ultimately are only benefitting them and then when the bet fails, still pay out golden parachutes to their wealthy executives. When our 401k gets massacred and they get to toddle off with 30-40 million extra dollars, I have a problem with that.
 
CJ Rader said:
I agree with you on the normal functioning of a stock market. I too have made some money over the past couple of years. What I don't agree with is banks being allowed to make unnecessarily risky bets that ultimately are only benefitting them and then when the bet fails, still pay out golden parachutes to their wealthy executives. When our 401k gets massacred and they get to toddle off with 30-40 million extra dollars, I have a problem with that.
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I don't like it either, but nothing changed after that crash as far as regulating Wall St firms, and it certainly won't in the near future.
 
mscard88 said:
I don't like it either, but nothing changed after that crash as far as regulating Wall St firms, and it certainly won't in the near future.
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I agree with you there as well. I was working in the financial services industry, back then. The so-called 'fixes' on the mortgage lending side were a joke. They added a few extra pages to print out and called it good. Anyway, I'm headed back over to the threads dealing with aviation. Politics and economics stress me out. Flying relaxes me (even the crosswind landings). :D
 
bflynn said:
Ah, right. Yeah, sorry about that. But maintaining a complex tax code just to provide jobs to people to explain it seems silly.

You forgot about all the IRS workers who would be let go.
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At last check, the IRS' budget has been cut this past year, and the intent by current administration is to cut the budget again. Which is going to make it a bit difficult for the IRS to get new tax tables out by Feb 1 for payroll withholding, etc.
 
teejayevans said:
Somebody has been watching too much CNN or MSNBC....
Take a chill pill...America is still better off than most other nations.
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Yeah, for now. But that is a very hollow argument. Like saying we are still the most powerful military in the world.....when our current enemies are carrying knives, AK-47s and backpack bombs.

I don’t get my news from CNN/MSNBC any more than FoxNews or Breitbart. It’s all ridiculous spin. You have to use your brain and sift through the commentary.

And for the record, I’m a republican who voted for Trump. Just because this plan is better than what Obama and the Dems came up with doesn’t mean much.
 
Ravioli said:
We should add a poll to this thread to see how many people have read ANY of the text of the bill.

But since this topic is 100% political...
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It's been difficult to,read the bill, considering it wasn't published until last Friday, and rapidly became the cure for insomnia....I seriously question if anyone who voted for it, read it in its entirely. Most bills are written by staffers and lobbyists, and Congressional members get the summary of the cliff notes version on no more than 3 pages of bullet points.

As proof, why were the 3 clauses forbidden by Senate rules allowed to get thru the 'joint' committee that combined the two versions?
 
murphey said:
At last check, the IRS' budget has been cut this past year, and the intent by current administration is to cut the budget again. Which is going to make it a bit difficult for the IRS to get new tax tables out by Feb 1 for payroll withholding, etc.
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Which only emphasizes the inefficiency of government agencies.
 
Shawn said:
This Tax plan is a great boom for GA.

The top will have more cash in hand to spend, and since they can 100% expense business assets that will spur a flurry of aircraft purchases...which means more used aircraft on the market eventually for the rest of us!

In all seriousness, that expense provision is gonna do more for corporate investment which will mean more jobs than the tax rate reduction will...not necessarily at the purchasing company, but at the suppliers of those assets. Corporate consumption is a much bigger economic driver than consumer consumption but does not make for good soundbites.
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Actually no. Consumer consumption drives 70% of GDP. Please note that many large corporate CEOs have already stated that lower corp tax rate will not result in huge hiring numbers at those companies.
 
PaulS said:
Reports I've read say this bill will increase the debt by $1.5 trillion over 10 years, I'll take it.
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That's $1.5 trillion on top of the current deficits. So, instead of something like $10 trillion, it will be more like $11.5 T.

And the $1.5 T number comes straight from the White House when describing the magnitude of the tax cut.
 
My take: the tax problem in this country will NEVER be solved unless there is a catastrophic collapse of the economy (Great Depression-style), and with that a revolt of the people which ends up removing just about every politician in office. So, the likelihood of solving the tax issues is just about zero. Income tax is a terrible way to administer a tax, because of the varying nature of what "income" is. When you couple that with multiple tax rates, deductions, and credits, it becomes a quagmire of illogical tax laws. If they went to a sales tax (consumption tax) which had some sort of rebate/prebate for those at the low-end of the earnings scale to keep them out of complete squalor, you'd have a good start. No tax credits, no loopholes, no deductions. Get rid of the corporate tax altogether, because it's just double-taxation. If everything was adjusted to compensate, you end up with the consumers bearing the burden of the taxes, with the wealthy likely bearing most of the burden because they buy "more stuff" and it's generally much more expensive than what the low/middle-class consumer does (Mercedes vs Fords).

The spending side also needs to be addressed. Policing the world and maintaining bases/outposts in half of the countries around the world is a waste of money. It also props up that great military-industrial complex, which loves to overcharge the government. Rolling back some of the social welfare programs would be a great start, too. The Federal gov't has way too much power over everything, and should be reduced back to basic defense and regulating interstate commerce. There's no reason it needs to go beyond that. You cut out a metric ton of spending, and force everyone to effective pay 10-15% on their purchases, and I bet you can chew that national debt down in a few decades. However, no one wants to make that sacrifice, both politically or to the hundreds of thousands of jobs that would be eliminated (due to drastically cut military spending and IRS/tax specialists no longer needed).

In the meantime, I don't pay it much attention because the wife and I don't have over $24K in deductions, so we stand to benefit a slight bit from the proposed tax law change. However, that doesn't mean I think it's even a scratch on the surface to the US debt/tax problems.
 
PaulS said:
It's a spending problem, not a tax collection problem
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100%
and government spending is rarely the kind of thing that gives back, IE, if I spend $10K in a month on non-fixed-item expenses then I'm directly contributing to the economy when I go to dinner, when I wash my car, buy gas, buy groceries, pay for a Kings Course (let's try and keep this kind of flying related?), etc.

when the government spends $10K it generally just goes "poof!" up in the air. People get all bent out of shape about how publicly traded companies (and private companies) spend their money.. but where is that same accountability with the gov? Why can I not get a receipt at the end of the year showing where the $50K I paid in taxes has gone? Military spending is huge, but at least when they spend money there that's directly going to someone's pay check at Electric Boat Company, a welder building an aircraft carrier, an engineer at Lockheed Martin, etc.

I get that a social safety net is part of a modern society, but our system is sooo easy to game.. I've yet to meet someone who legitimately needed the safety net, yet I've met countless people who do whatever they can to stay inside of it. We literally had people applying for jobs at our company asking if there was any way we could pay them under the table so they can keep their unemployment. The answer was a big fat no, you don't get to double dip

FlySince9 said:
Barney Frank
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..but somehow he came out the victor with the "Dodd Frank" bill - a complete pile of garbage that does what it can to suffocate the life out of any private entity. The housing bubble didn't collapse because evil banks decided to take people's homes away, it collapsed because banks were encouraged to lend to people who were in the risky subprime group because "everyone deserves a house" .. so what happens when you give someone a $500K loan who makes $35K a year? Guess what, they go belly up. Is it careless to loan someone money you know can never pay it back, yes, but we are adults here, these people are not helpless dimwits. Read the document and promissory note before you sign it. Imagine if you lent your friend $500 and then they didn't pay it back and accused you of being careless in lending them the money? Are banks innocent, absolutely not, but it's not like there was secret meeting of comic book villains and they said "gee, how can we screw the economy, tarnish our names, but at least get a giant golden parachute"

This is worth the watch
 
**Switching gears for a second here.. but let me just say, I am impressed with PoA for keeping this as civil as it is. I thought for sure this would be locked by the end of page 1. You guys rock. And what does that say about pilots in general? Other forums would have gone downhill loooong ago**
 
FlyingElvii said:
Perhaps this will be the catalyst for you to get more involved with making sure the pols of your state spend more responsibly?
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I actually am fairly active politically, and I do believe in liberty, property rights and fiscal discipline at all levels of government. Problem is, in most of the large blue states, governments are elected by the people that don't pay much into the system. If I were in that half the population that pays little or no taxes, I might be seduced too when politicians start talking about free college tuition and all sorts of other giveaways - especially when the freebies come with that "soak the rich" class warfare promise. The only option I see is to vote with my feet, and even that's complicated by what we anticipate will be a fairly significant decline in property values thanks to the new tax bill.
 
Well from the way it looks now, the amount of money I pay the IRS will be going up significantly due to this new fantastic "Christmas present". Please, take me off your "gift" list!! :mad:

So yeah, less money for me means less money for flying and GA. It's really neat that my tax return may be easier to fill out though... :rolleyes:

I really don't understand how lowering the corporate tax rate is supposed to create a bunch of new jobs. Do corporations suddenly feel more generous? Do labor rates and expenses suddenly get cheaper here in the US? Do corporations suddenly feel like buying and building a bunch of stuff they don't really need? Did China suddenly get more expensive to do business in? Do corporations have a maximum amount of money they can bank and when they exceed that they have to buy stuff and hire people only here in the US or something?

Well I suppose there's 50 or so jobs that can be repatriated when they move the corporate "headquarters" back from Ireland, or wherever...
 
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