Will Obama be the end of General aviation

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dennyleeb

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Re: Will Obama kill general aviation

I won't comment on Obama here but I thought this part of the article was interesting.

In the response, Hyde said the administration wanted to make sure that those who benefit from the airspace system share the costs equitably.

“For example, under current law, a large commercial aircraft flying from Los Angeles to San Francisco pays between twenty-one and thirty-three times the fuel taxes paid by a corporate jet flying the same route and using the same FAA air traffic services,” according to the response.

Really? Paying the 21.9-cents-per-gallon tax on noncommercial jet fuel, operators of a Gulfstream IV business jet would pay about $87 in fuel taxes. The commercial jet fuel tax is 4.4 cents per gallon; even with a much higher fuel burn, operators of an Airbus A320 would pay about $68 in fuel taxes. AOPA maintains that GA is willing to pay its fair share into the system—but payment shouldn’t be based on faulty calculations.
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Sounds like the morons don't even understand that GA is already assessed a much higher fuel tax. I understand that airlines are subject to a ticket fee as well, when you see that GA is paying a fuel tax that is 500% higher than the airlines, PLUS a $100 fee for every flight, it sure does seem like GA is getting screwed.

Also a fixed fee hurts smaller, short range operations much more than it does larger long range ops. "Fair Share" is BS
 
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Re: Will Obama kill general aviation

dell30rb said:
Sounds like the morons don't even understand that GA is already assessed a much higher fuel tax. I understand that airlines are subject to a ticket fee as well, when you see that GA is paying a fuel tax that is 500% higher than the airlines, PLUS a $100 fee for every flight, it sure does seem like GA is getting screwed.

Also a fixed fee hurts smaller, short range operations much more than it does larger long range ops. "Fair Share" is BS
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The airlines do not pay that tax, the passengers do. It is not a burden to the airlines, so it does not enter into the cost (to them) at all.
 
Re: Will Obama kill general aviation

Cruiser said:
The airlines do not pay that tax, the passengers do. It is not a burden to the airlines, so it does not enter into the cost (to them) at all.
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That is true, the price is per-ticket and its passed on to the customer. I'd say that if it did not exist they would charge more and just pocket the money, however I think that with the competition in airline service they all need to keep their prices as low as possible. If the ticket tax was eliminated, airline ticket prices would likely drop by near that amount...
 
Re: Will Obama kill general aviation

not any more than bush or clinton did
 
Re: Will Obama kill general aviation

dell30rb said:
Sounds like the morons don't even understand that GA is already assessed a much higher fuel tax. I understand that airlines are subject to a ticket fee as well, when you see that GA is paying a fuel tax that is 500% higher than the airlines, PLUS a $100 fee for every flight, it sure does seem like GA is getting screwed.
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Does no one here read the ENTIRE article? It specifically states that "All piston aircraft, military aircraft, public aircraft, air ambulances, aircraft operating outside of controlled airspace, and Canada-to-Canada flights would be exempted."

OK, now that everyone has read the critical section - do you also believe that this "escape clause" will last?

Of course not. However, if you're going to argue, argue the facts.
 
Re: Will Obama kill general aviation

I'd have been ok if the response had even tried to address the points brought up in the petition about implementation and the efficiency of the fuel tax and the ticket tax.

But this just came off as "Oh, there's a petition on one of my topics. Rather than read it or any of the comments, I'm just going to dismiss it with my sound-bites".
 
Re: Will Obama kill general aviation

murphey said:
Does no one here read the ENTIRE article? It specifically states that "All piston aircraft, military aircraft, public aircraft, air ambulances, aircraft operating outside of controlled airspace, and Canada-to-Canada flights would be exempted."

OK, now that everyone has read the critical section - do you also believe that this "escape clause" will last?

Of course not. However, if you're going to argue, argue the facts.
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no it does not

"The original proposal also would exempt “recreational piston aircraft,” a nebulous distinction. The response to the petition refers instead to exempting “all piston aircraft,” among other categories—but no segment of aviation can count itself immune once the bureaucratic structure for user fees is introduced. "
 
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Re: Will Obama kill general aviation

Oh, they get it. They just think we are another revenue stream. They fail to admit that WE THE PEOPLE pay ALL the airlines fees. Here's what I got today regarding the petition I signed opposing GA User Fees.
=======================================================
Why We Need Aviation User Fees
 By Dana Hyde, Associate Director for General Government Programs, Office of Management and Budget
Thank you for signing the petition "Take Aviation User Fees Off the Table." We appreciate your participation in the We the People platform on WhiteHouse.gov and your concerns about user fees in a challenging economy.
In a challenging budget environment, the Obama Administration believes it’s essential that those who benefit from our world-class aviation system help pay for its ongoing operation. And we want to ensure that everyone is paying their fair share. For example, under current law, a large commercial aircraft flying from Los Angeles to San Francisco pays between twenty-one and thirty-three times the fuel taxes paid by a corporate jet flying the same route and using the same FAA air traffic services. This is why the Administration proposed to establish a new surcharge for air traffic services.
The proposed $100 per flight fee would generate an estimated $11 billion over 10 years, reducing the deficit and more equitably sharing the cost of air traffic services across the aviation user community. All piston aircraft, military aircraft, public aircraft, air ambulances, aircraft operating outside of controlled airspace, and Canada-to-Canada flights would be exempted.
We appreciate your petition's acknowledgment that there needs to be an increased user contribution to aviation system funding in the current fiscal climate, and we recognize that some would prefer to raise the tax rate on aviation fuel. At the same time, we have concluded that a $100 per flight user fee is an equitable way for those who benefit to bear the cost of this essential service.
As we work to get our Nation back on a sustainable fiscal path, the Administration is making tough choices across the Federal budget and asking everyone to do their fair share. We recognize these shared sacrifices are not easy, but together with investments in our economic growth and job creation, they will make us stronger and more competitive for the future. We look forward to working collaboratively with the Congress and the aviation stakeholder community on this issue, and thank you again for your constructive input.


The Official Response on We the People

 
Re: Will Obama kill general aviation

And when I have a budget shortfall, I tell my boss I need a 15% raise and he more than accommodates me. Am I living fat or what?
 
Re: Will Obama kill general aviation

One person, even the President, cannot "kill general aviation." It is to prevent that sort of situation that we have the governmental structure we do. So, it would take a minimum of 270 people to do that, and given Congress' track record in this regard, I don't see it happening.
 
Re: Will Obama kill general aviation

Sounds like the final nail in the GA coffin.

Just my luck too. My plans were to retire in 3 years with my CFI and make a few bucks to supplement my income.

It is VERY difficult, but I will refrain from getting into politics on this site.

What is everybody's thoughts about whether the proposal will reach reality. It seems that every other time he's gotten a bee in his bonnet he's gotten his way. It would be a surprise if he didn't get his way on this.
 
Re: Will Obama kill general aviation

Ron Levy said:
One person, even the President, cannot "kill general aviation." It is to prevent that sort of situation that we have the governmental structure we do. So, it would take a minimum of 270 people to do that, and given Congress' track record in this regard, I don't see it happening.
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U.S. Governmental agencies can't raise taxes, but I believe they can charge "user fees" without requiring legislation. No time to confirm that, but I think that is the case.
 
Re: Will Obama kill general aviation

nddons said:
U.S. Governmental agencies can't raise taxes, but I believe they can charge "user fees" without requiring legislation. No time to confirm that, but I think that is the case.
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Yes and no. Congress can order them not to, and Congress has done so regarding user fees for aviation. From a practical standpoint, the President cannot make this happen without Congressional approval.
 
Re: Will Obama kill general aviation

Ron Levy said:
One person, even the President, cannot "kill general aviation." It is to prevent that sort of situation that we have the governmental structure we do. So, it would take a minimum of 270 people to do that, and given Congress' track record in this regard, I don't see it happening.
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You did no read it. He needs no congressional approval for the proposed user fee
 
Re: Will Obama kill general aviation

As I understand it, the congress needs to vote to allow any department to charge user fees. For the FAA, this has already been done (re: aircraft registration). So now the FAA is free to charge whatever they want for anything. Congress at this point can either recind their ability to charge any fees or vote to deny funding.
As to anyone being exempt, even if this were true for piston aircraft in this goround, don't count on it tomorrow.
USER FEES ARE JUST AN ADDITIONAL REVENUE STREAM. A TAX, a pig dressed up in a silk dress and makeup but still a TAX. Time for a new Boston tea party! This time, we throw the politicians into the harbor.
 
Re: Will Obama kill general aviation

dennyleeb said:
oh really, how much of a user fee do you pay now?
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How much of a user fee will you pay in six months, a year, two years from now? Neither you nor I can answer that with any certainty.

It really wasn't all that long ago that we were having this same conversation, during the pre-Obama administration. But yet, how much of a user fee do you pay now?

Silver Eagle is right. All executive branch fees that I'm aware of must spring from an original Congressional authorization, however general or specific that authorization may be. The DOT apparently has authorization now, or at least they think they have the authorization now, to undergo rulemaking to implement this fee(s). But it can be withdrawn in part or in whole by Congress, when their attention is caught.
 
Re: Will Obama kill general aviation

dennyleeb said:
You did no read it. He needs no congressional approval for the proposed user fee
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Just because Congress allows an agency to charge fees doesn't mean the agency can charge any fee it likes. Congress can prohibit particular fees, and in this case, has done so in the past. Without Congressional approval, this one doesn't fly.
 
Re: Will Obama kill general aviation

Ron Levy said:
Just because Congress allows an agency to charge fees doesn't mean the agency can charge any fee it likes. Congress can prohibit particular fees, and in this case, has done so in the past. Without Congressional approval, this one doesn't fly.
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When you have Patty Murray A dedicated socialist as transportation secretary stand by with your wallet.
 
Re: Will Obama kill general aviation

Patty Murray is a senator from Washington who is chairwoman of the subcommittee of the appropriations committee that has to do with transportation. I'm guessing Tom didn't vote for her :)
 
Rotor&Wing said:
I thought Ray LaHood was the DOT Secretary? :dunno:
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Yeah...

The "Speechmaker of Wichita".

He flew excellent wingman for his bosses. And provided excellent cover for Boeing. A real player.

He'll never be wanting for a job. Professional liars are always in demand.

There's quite a bit of denial and anger flowing from the realization that Representative Government, really isn't really representative.

Here, let me recount the Kubler-Ross model for personal change and trauma...

Denial
Anger
Bargaining <-- You are here.
Depression
Acceptance

Get with the program people! ;)
 
Re: Will Obama kill general aviation

dennyleeb said:
With his proposed $100 user fee anytime a flight is in controlled airspace. Does not say if class E is also included. Sounds like he is going to do the same thing as he does with appointments ( no congressional approval) something he said he was so against a few years ago :mad:

http://www.aopa.org/advocacy/articles/2012/120113white-house-aviation-user-fee-response.html
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I should point out that Robert Poole of the libertarian Reason Foundation has been advocating aviation user fees for years. Has Obama suddenly become a libertarian - or could it be that this is an election year and this is being used as a populist appeal? The constant reference to corporate jets might be a clue.

As a libertarian I have no philosophical objection to paying for services I use. Unfortunately when government is involved, there is no natural market mechanism available on the supply side (in this case ATC) that keeps it in check - particularly since any funding shortages can be made up via other tax revenue streams. So if they inadvertently squeeze GA traffic down so that even large fees can't make up the difference, they are unlikely to cut expenses or drop the fees as a private organization would have to do.
 
Re: Will Obama kill general aviation

Jim Logajan said:
I should point out that Robert Poole of the libertarian Reason Foundation has been advocating aviation user fees for years. Has Obama suddenly become a libertarian - or could it be that this is an election year and this is being used as a populist appeal? The constant reference to corporate jets might be a clue.

As a libertarian I have no philosophical objection to paying for services I use. Unfortunately when government is involved, there is no natural market mechanism available on the supply side (in this case ATC) that keeps it in check - particularly since any funding shortages can be made up via other tax revenue streams. So if they inadvertently squeeze GA traffic down so that even large fees can't make up the difference, they are unlikely to cut expenses or drop the fees as a private organization would have to do.
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?
really, it is nice to say that you are libertarian but are you even listening?
 
Re: Will Obama kill general aviation

dennyleeb said:
?
really, it is nice to say that you are libertarian but are you even listening?
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I was merely making an observation. Obama is a center left liberal, and so any noises he makes that make him appear to be something else are ephemeral political posturing.

A user fee already exists in the form of aviation fuel taxes, as has already been mentioned elsewhere, so I'm not sure what else you are suggesting by your question.
 
Re: Will Obama kill general aviation

To answer the question truthfully, yes, he will, but it is not a fault of "Them Democrats" or "That darned Obama," and is instead a fault of a government that needs money and sees an easy grab.

If John McCain won the election, you'd be seeing the same thing happen. There is no avoiding it, this will come unless we get a LOT more pilots in a very short amount of time that can argue the fight. But when we try to mass our numbers and come up with "Well, 4000 people, of which 1200 might be voters if we're lucky, think this is a bad idea" we're screwed.

But hey, keep thinking it makes sense to keep aviation "Exclusive and only for the special few of us that deserve it" instead of moving toward a more reasonable, affordable model.
 
Re: Will Obama kill general aviation

Jim Logajan said:
Obama is a center left liberal, and so any noises he makes that make him appear to be something else are ephemeral political posturing.
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His voting record in the state senate, and federal senate, and his ACTIONS as President indicate he is a far left liberal, not just his rhetoric. Not going SZ here, but the facts are the facts, and his stance on "economic justice" will affect General Aviation.


A user fee already exists in the form of aviation fuel taxes, as has already been mentioned elsewhere, so I'm not sure what else you are suggesting by your question.
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True, but if the WH has its way we will be paying multiple levels of user fees. Fuel taxes, controllled airspace user fees, and ATC usage fees. This will certainly put those thinking about getting out of GA over the edge, and discourage new users, and really put a fork in the entire light plane industry.
 
Re: Will Obama kill general aviation

Jim Logajan said:
I was merely making an observation. Obama is a center left liberal, and so any noises he makes that make him appear to be something else are ephemeral political posturing.

A user fee already exists in the form of aviation fuel taxes, as has already been mentioned elsewhere, so I'm not sure what else you are suggesting by your question.
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nothing really, had a few beers probably thinking about ron paul wanting to give Iran nuclear weapons
 
Re: Will Obama kill general aviation

SkyHog said:
To answer the question truthfully, yes, he will, but it is not a fault of "Them Democrats" or "That darned Obama," and is instead a fault of a government that needs money and sees an easy grab.

If John McCain won the election, you'd be seeing the same thing happen. There is no avoiding it, this will come unless we get a LOT more pilots in a very short amount of time that can argue the fight. But when we try to mass our numbers and come up with "Well, 4000 people, of which 1200 might be voters if we're lucky, think this is a bad idea" we're screwed.

But hey, keep thinking it makes sense to keep aviation "Exclusive and only for the special few of us that deserve it" instead of moving toward a more reasonable, affordable model.
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No I don't think so. We need money alright but a big part of it is to pay for all his programs. He has spent more money than any president in history. Some people believe that you can't tax and spend your way out of a recession.
 
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Re: Will Obama kill general aviation

Anthony said:
His voting record in the state senate, and federal senate, and his ACTIONS as President indicate he is a far left liberal, not just his rhetoric. Not going SZ here, but the facts are the facts, and his stance on "economic justice" will affect General Aviation.





True, but if the WH has its way we will be paying multiple levels of user fees. Fuel taxes, controllled airspace user fees, and ATC usage fees. This will certainly put those thinking about getting out of GA over the edge, and discourage new users, and really put a fork in the entire light plane industry.
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Exactly! Well said
 
Re: Will Obama kill general aviation

What puzzles me is the arithmetic assumptions, logical errors that any fourth grader should be able to point out.

Tax me on using ATC- that was set up for the convenience and safety of the airlines? Fine. I won't use them. (What traffic at 9:00?) Tax me for filing IFR? Fine. I'll go VFR. (less safe, but there you go.) Tax me to the degree that GA is out of my reach- (not too far from right now), fine... I'll quit. So will lots of others. Where's your revenue stream then? And where's your volunteerism- Angel Flights, and such? And there's that big expensive new bureaucracy to assess and collect the new fees? (On top of the one that already exists to collect fuel taxes, which, given less flying= smaller fuel tax receipts.)

It's hard for me to believe this is about collecting more money, when it's obvious that goose/golden egg comes into play fairly quickly. It's about yet more control, yet another power grab to degrade one of the most remarkable freedoms we Americans ever possessed.

America: Land of the Fee. Home of the secure.

Sigh...It's been a remarkable ride.
 
Re: Will Obama kill general aviation

Amelia said:
What puzzles me is the arithmetic assumptions, logical errors that any fourth grader should be able to point out.

Tax me on using ATC- that was set up for the convenience and safety of the airlines? Fine. I won't use them. (What traffic at 9:00?) Tax me for filing IFR? Fine. I'll go VFR. (less safe, but there you go.) Tax me to the degree that GA is out of my reach- (not too far from right now), fine... I'll quit. So will lots of others. Where's your revenue stream then? And where's your volunteerism- Angel Flights, and such? And there's that big expensive new bureaucracy to assess and collect the new fees? (On top of the one that already exists to collect fuel taxes, which, given less flying= smaller fuel tax receipts.)

It's hard for me to believe this is about collecting more money, when it's obvious that goose/golden egg comes into play fairly quickly. It's about yet more control, yet another power grab to degrade one of the most remarkable freedoms we Americans ever possessed.

America: Land of the Fee. Home of the secure.

Sigh...It's been a remarkable ride.
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And a freedom almost unique in the whole world. Another generation or two, other unique freedoms will disappear and the USA will be....just another country.

One reason I don't own a plane? I consider it a bad investment - one of these admistrations will implement user fees and/or invite the TSA to the GA side and make a small plane too expensive and/or onerous to fly and I'll br left with metal at a fraction of the price I paid for it. If this plan is implemented, only the top 1% will be able to afford flying other than taking the airlines.
 
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Re: Will Obama kill general aviation

Cap'n Jack said:
And a freedom almost unique in the whole world. Another generation or two, other unique freedoms will disappear and the USA will be....just another country.

One reason I don't own a plane? I consider it a bad investment - one of these admistrations will implement user fees and/or invite the TSA to the GA side and make a small plane too expensive and/or onerous to fly and I'll br left with metal at a fraction of the price I paid for it. If this plan is implemented, only the top 1% will be able to afford flying other than taking the airlines.
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I don't look at my airplane as an investment. It's a gratuitous expenditure. One that doesn't save me money but saves me time (which is much more valuable to me than money) and an activity that I enjoy more than driving. I'm sure the possibility of getting priced out of GA is always looming, until then I'll continue to enjoy the privilege of flying, which in instances means going cheap on maintenance, certainly affording much less plane that I would want, playing Bill Clinton about a few interpretations of a few regulations, staying out of sight and not volunteering information to anybody. *uck it, live a little. Last time I checked the American Spirit didn't revolve around obedient unwavering compliance. If you ain't cheating you ain't tryin' :wink2:
 
Re: Will Obama kill general aviation

1) How much of the $100 would go to feed the new bureaucracy, or LockMart should some genius decide to privatize the collection agency?

(correct answer? Most of it)

2) I burn Jet-A, but am treated as a second-class citizen by ATC. If I'm paying my 'fair share' :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: then I expect timely climb-outs to altitude, and longer times at altitude instead of being dropped to 8000ft 250miles from my destination.

Fair share. Every time I hear that phrase I have to laugh -- fair according to whom?????

AT this point, 'User Fees' are a holy grail. The govt minions don't even know why they are pursuing them, they just MUST HAVE USER FEES!
 
Re: Will Obama kill general aviation

SkyHog said:
To answer the question truthfully, yes, he will, but it is not a fault of "Them Democrats" or "That darned Obama," and is instead a fault of a government that needs money and sees an easy grab.

If John McCain won the election, you'd be seeing the same thing happen. There is no avoiding it, this will come unless we get a LOT more pilots in a very short amount of time that can argue the fight. But when we try to mass our numbers and come up with "Well, 4000 people, of which 1200 might be voters if we're lucky, think this is a bad idea" we're screwed.

But hey, keep thinking it makes sense to keep aviation "Exclusive and only for the special few of us that deserve it" instead of moving toward a more reasonable, affordable model.
Click to expand...

Which is why I laugh when some people here get on their high horses and vow not to continue to belong to the AOPA or the EAA, because they are funding executives salaries, are being too political, aren't focusing on homebuilders, their magazines aren't focusing enough on Cherokee 140s and Cessna 152s, etc. etc. etc.

Each day we fly is a do or die day for GA, and unless PoA can garner half a million members, and political clout (Scott M's elected library board membership notwithstanding), I think we should put on our big boy pilot pants, and support the only organizations that are fighting on our behalf.
 
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