Will General Aviation Survive

Cost is definitely a barrier, but I think a lot of it has to do with the pilot image. In the 40's you had the hero fighter pilot and the 80's gave us Top Gun. Aside from a couple airline pilots that successfully ditched in the water who is there to look up to? You almost have to already be in aviation before you recognize the heroes and role models. To the "normal" world pilots are just a bunch of arrogant bus drivers.
 
midcap said:
These days....with the completely ridiculousness of travel sports and having to go to private school....you could fund the operation of a turbo prop. I am being serious.
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Sadly, that isn't even an exaggeration.
 
midcap said:
These days....with the completely ridiculousness of travel sports and having to go to private school....you could fund the operation of a turbo prop. I am being serious.
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I wouldn't trade a single moment of time I spent, or $$$$ I spent on my kids schooling, their travel sports, their educations, or anything else. And, yes, I took a couple of decades off flying to focus on my kids.

Flying is an incredibly selfish thing, in my opinion. And that's ok, once you can afford to be incredibly selfish.
 
JoseCuervo said:
I wouldn't trade a single moment of time I spent, or $$$$ I spent on my kids schooling, their travel sports, their educations, or anything else. And, yes, I took a couple of decades off flying to focus on my kids.

Flying is an incredibly selfish thing, in my opinion. And that's ok, once you can afford to be incredibly selfish.
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It isn't about spending money on flying vs the kids. The bigger issue is that many folks have bought into this idea that if you spend loads of money to put your kids through the most expensive private schools and participate in all the right activities that you are doing your kids some huge favor.

And a lot of those families are miserable. In loads of debt. And the kids aren't necessarily better off.

Don't get me wrong; I'm not opposed to private schools. My own kids go to a private school which they are both very happy with, but it is not one of the schools that my neighbors deem 'the best'.
 
JoseCuervo said:
I wouldn't trade a single moment of time I spent, or $$$$ I spent on my kids schooling, their travel sports, their educations, or anything else. And, yes, I took a couple of decades off flying to focus on my kids.

Flying is an incredibly selfish thing, in my opinion. And that's ok, once you can afford to be incredibly selfish.
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It's your money and you are free to do what you want with it, but at what point is enough, enough?

That further's my point about GA and it's possible decline.....back in the day...your life didn't revolve about your children. Junior wants to play baseball, well he played at the park for rec league for like $25 the whole 2 month season. You didn't drop over $10,000 a year for travel ball.

I like how you say focusing on your kids....I get that.

You know what I enjoyed more than playing sports as a kid? Spending time with my dad and uncles going fishing. Every year I was begged by my friends and other parents to play travel ball and all stars etc, but you know what? That cut into my fishing time.

It just so happened that I was naturally talented where I didn't need to play year round to keep up my skills. So. It all worked out.
 
Jay Honeck said:
???

Cirrus sold just 301 airplanes last year. That is less than 10% of the total number of Lamborghinis sold in the same year.

Death spiral is accurate.
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Compare to other brands of the same type please. You seem to have the information.
 
Okay, let me ask you this: If flying is so expensive and the interest is there why hasn't light sport taken off or even R/C airplanes? Boats are expensive too and not practical but they're everywhere here in Florida. We have to change the perception of airplanes in order for GA to grow.
 
midcap said:
It's your money and you are free to do what you want with it, but at what point is enough, enough?

That further's my point about GA and it's possible decline.....back in the day...your life didn't revolve about your children. Junior wants to play baseball, well he played at the park for rec league for like $25 the whole 2 month season. You didn't drop over $10,000 a year for travel ball.

I like how you say focusing on your kids....I get that.

You know what I enjoyed more than playing sports as a kid? Spending time with my dad and uncles going fishing. Every year I was begged by my friends and other parents to play travel ball and all stars etc, but you know what? That cut into my fishing time.

It just so happened that I was naturally talented where I didn't need to play year round to keep up my skills. So. It all worked out.
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Why have kids if you don't want to spend time and $$$ on them? They ain't the cheapest hobby.

If you really want to go "back in the day", we used have 5-7-9 kids, knowing that we would have a few die along the way, bet most of the raised up to the point they were somewhat useful on the farm, then see them married off over 15-20 years, just about the time the parents were ready to kick the bucket, or get killed in an industrial/farming accident.

I raised my kids outdoors, for the most part, as best as I could. They never played video games, they all could hunt and fish, all killed their first deer at age 12. All could kayak Class IV rivers by the time they were 10... And, I spent a ton of money on hunting, fishing, rafting gear and trips for them. Money that I didn't spend on flying.

The point is not if you think travel sports are a good use of $$$, the point, likely, that is relevant here, is the $$$$ spent on GA that are not available for the kids. And, is that a good use of finite family resources.

Each family decides, but, I can tell you that our local soccer fields are busier than our local airport, so, it looks like the masses have spoken.
 
FloridaPilot said:
Okay, let me ask you this: If flying is so expensive and the interest is there why hasn't light sport taken off or even R/C airplanes? Boats are expensive too and not practical but they're everywhere here in Florida. We have to change the perception of airplanes in order for GA to grow.
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Because people want to actually go somewhere in their airplanes and light sport doesn't help much with that.
 
FloridaPilot said:
Okay, let me ask you this: If flying is so expensive and the interest is there why hasn't light sport taken off or even R/C airplanes? Boats are expensive too and not practical but they're everywhere here in Florida. We have to change the perception of airplanes in order for GA to grow.
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If airports had girls in Bikinis, bars with big screens, big fish to catch, and planes could be parked at home...I'd say more than 5 planes at my airport would be flying on any given Saturday.
 
When aviation declined in the 80s everyone predicted it's demise. It's true that after the 70's boom, aviation has never been the same. I don't think it's dying though.

I try to look at it from an outsiders point-of-view. We have fences and cameras around most airports these days. A lot of people aren't sure if they're really allowed or welcome at their local airport. I live near an airport that had once had four flight training schools. None of them had any real advertisements or signs drawing people in, other than a few that had the Sporty's "Learn to Fly Here" sign.

When I take people flying, they're usually surprised that there are so many airports I can land at. They're also surprised that we don't need permission to land. "You can just go there whenever you want?"

They also think we're all rich. I agree it's not cheap, but it's not outrageous either unless you just have to have that brand new Bonanza for almost $1M!
  • There's a local 172 with maybe 200 hours on the engine for sale for around $21K. Three guys could partner and have $7K in an airplane. Leave it on the ramp and split the $30/month fee, split the insurance and maintenance. Cheap flying!
  • There's another 172 with 5 partners. They spend $50K for a nice plane with a low-time engine, 160HP, autopilot and it looks great. They split everything 5 ways, and pay $10/hour into an engine fund. Only one guy flies it.
  • My plane is a fully restored Cessna 140. I know a lot of you fly much more capable airplanes, but my plane is hard to be for economical flying and I fly a lot. Roughly $26-28K to buy one (a nice one). I spend around $300/mo for a hangar, around $600/year on insurance, $300/year for an annual. It ends up not being cheap, but not horrible either.
I'm seeing more and more car and airplane shows at airports. This gets more people out to check out planes and I think it's a great idea.
 
Lowflynjack said:
When aviation declined in the 80s everyone predicted it's demise. It's true that after the 70's boom, aviation has never been the same. I don't think it's dying though.

I try to look at it from an outsiders point-of-view. We have fences and cameras around most airports these days. A lot of people aren't sure if they're really allowed or welcome at their local airport. I live near an airport that had once had four flight training schools. None of them had any real advertisements or signs drawing people in, other than a few that had the Sporty's "Learn to Fly Here" sign.

When I take people flying, they're usually surprised that there are so many airports I can land at. They're also surprised that we don't need permission to land. "You can just go there whenever you want?"

They also think we're all rich. I agree it's not cheap, but it's not outrageous either unless you just have to have that brand new Bonanza for almost $1M!
  • There's a local 172 with maybe 200 hours on the engine for sale for around $21K. Three guys could partner and have $7K in an airplane. Leave it on the ramp and split the $30/month fee, split the insurance and maintenance. Cheap flying!
  • There's another 172 with 5 partners. They spend $50K for a nice plane with a low-time engine, 160HP, autopilot and it looks great. They split everything 5 ways, and pay $10/hour into an engine fund. Only one guy flies it.
  • My plane is a fully restored Cessna 140. I know a lot of you fly much more capable airplanes, but my plane is hard to be for economical flying and I fly a lot. Roughly $26-28K to buy one (a nice one). I spend around $300/mo for a hangar, around $600/year on insurance, $300/year for an annual. It ends up not being cheap, but not horrible either.
I'm seeing more and more car and airplane shows at airports. This gets more people out to check out planes and I think it's a great idea.
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Agreed! I was looking through aso.com and I saw an absolute gorgeous taylorcraft BC-12. Price 21k

https://www.aso.com/listings/spec/V...l=True&pagingNo=1&searchId=28067836&dealerid=

If a person REALLY wanted to fly they would find a way to do it!
 
JoseCuervo said:
Why have kids if you don't want to spend time and $$$ on them? They ain't the cheapest hobby.

If you really want to go "back in the day", we used have 5-7-9 kids, knowing that we would have a few die along the way, bet most of the raised up to the point they were somewhat useful on the farm, then see them married off over 15-20 years, just about the time the parents were ready to kick the bucket, or get killed in an industrial/farming accident.

I raised my kids outdoors, for the most part, as best as I could. They never played video games, they all could hunt and fish, all killed their first deer at age 12. All could kayak Class IV rivers by the time they were 10... And, I spent a ton of money on hunting, fishing, rafting gear and trips for them. Money that I didn't spend on flying.

The point is not if you think travel sports are a good use of $$$, the point, likely, that is relevant here, is the $$$$ spent on GA that are not available for the kids. And, is that a good use of finite family resources.

Each family decides, but, I can tell you that our local soccer fields are busier than our local airport, so, it looks like the masses have spoken.
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Where did you get the idea it's an either/or? I know parents who spend a lot of money on aviation and have their kids involved, including soaring. I also know parents who spend a lot of money on horses, and have their kids involved, and on sailing and have their kids involved (one of those has a daughter who is ferociously good on a race course). Don't understand this martyrdom mindset that somehow one is a "better parent". It works in many ways. Sounds like you did a wonderful job raising your kids, but that doesn't make a parent who got their kids involved in aviation, and kept spending money flying, any less of one.
 
Kids and flying as economically mutually exclusive affairs? Personal recreational expenditures as working adults going in direct and immediate counterproduction against ones child's educational or vocational outcomes? Lol what a BS canard. Holy presumptuous Christ, batman.
 
GRG55 said:
Where did you get the idea it's an either/or? I know parents who spend a lot of money on aviation and have their kids involved, including soaring. I also know parents who spend a lot of money on horses, and have their kids involved, and on sailing and have their kids involved (one of those has a daughter who is ferociously good on a race course). Don't understand this martyrdom mindset that somehow one is a "better parent". It works in many ways. Sounds like you did a wonderful job raising your kids, but that doesn't make a parent who got their kids involved in aviation, and kept spending money flying, any less of one.
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BINGO. Thank you. You put it much more amicably than i would have.
 
FloridaPilot said:
Agreed! I was looking through aso.com and I saw an absolute gorgeous taylorcraft BC-12. Price 21k

https://www.aso.com/listings/spec/V...l=True&pagingNo=1&searchId=28067836&dealerid=

If a person REALLY wanted to fly they would find a way to do it!
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My first airplane was a well worn 1961 Cherokee 160. Crappy paint, a badly faded orange/brown interior but good mechanicals. I upgraded it with a King nav/com, a used transponder and intercom. Some of my family and friends thought I was "rich" because I owned an airplane. It cost me less than a good used Toyota Corolla to buy and fit out that plane. Took me a lot of places, including my first two 2400 nautical mile round trips to OSH.

I had friends that spent as much as I did, or more, on their hobbies - sports cars, motorcycles, ski boats, skiing holidays. We all make choices.
 
Aircraft manufacturing has truly become a specialty industry, smaller than even the makers of Lamborghini and Bugatti supercars.

As a result, they have ZERO interest in promoting the fact that it is easily possible to buy a nice, used 4-seat plane for about the same price as a Harley-Davidson motorcycle.

This void in marketing and sales to the general public has been marginally filled by just two groups: AOPA and EAA. Neither group has the horsepower to mount a truly effective GA marketing effort that would raise awareness of how truly affordable GA can be.
 
RV10flyer said:
If airports had girls in Bikinis, bars with big screens, big fish to catch, and planes could be parked at home...I'd say more than 5 planes at my airport would be flying on any given Saturday.
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What is killing GA?

Take your pick:

1)Increased road capacity -- shorter distances at higher speeds
2)Luxury cars -- comfy cars
3)"Wimping" of our population -- You can't even buy a coffee mug without a warning label.
4)Over working -- lack of free time to pursue dreams
4.1)Over stimulation -- internet, 1500 TV channels, video games, etc. all compete for what little leisure time exists.
5)Increase in housing cost -- people buy more house/land than they need
6)Multiple car families -- required as #5 prevents people walking to the store, work, or school
7)Increase initial aircraft cost -- less volume sold combined with prevalent litigation
8)Increasing aircraft maintenance costs -- fleets are older because of #7
9)Self funded retirement -- what's a pension?
10)Rising healthcare costs -- longer life span and more elderly in our country than ever before
11)Internet -- reduces required face time for business operations
12)Renewed Urbanization -- more potential local partnerships. Can't find what you need? take an airline to the next city
13)Manufacturing reduction -- closed mills are drying up towns and their associated air traffic.

We could go on and on.
 
Part of the problem is that you have an agency responsible for GA that no interest in promoting it, and tons of interest in regulating it out of existence.

Look how long they are taking to make the 3rd class medical reform into reality. Even more, look how they refused to take action until congress forced them to.

The worst thing to happen to aviation was the FAA. You can thank the 141 guys for that one since they apparently can't fly safely without em

The day we return to an intelligent system without the insane regs written by wannabe lawyers and enforced by wannabe cops will be the day Ga thrives again
 
FlyingElvii said:
View attachment 50197
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Yes, that would be super nice! I have a good RV friend that lives there. We have enjoyed our visits and formation flying as a pax. I should have went to engineering school like I wanted too at 17. Just an ex A&P and now HVAC guy. Oh well. I am proud of those living the dream.
 
SkyHog said:
The day we return to an intelligent system without the insane regs written by wannabe lawyers and enforced by wannabe cops will be the day Ga thrives again
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What day was that? That had an intelligent system that met your requirements?
 
Golf is on the decline and has been for a decade.... pilots also are known to play golf... therefore to improve GA we must fix this situation with golf. We need a new Tiger Woods Ya'll... Tiger Tiger Tiger Woods Ya'll.
 
OkieAviator said:
Golf is on the decline and has been for a decade.... pilots also are known to play golf... therefore to improve GA we must fix this situation with golf. We need a new Tiger Woods Ya'll... Tiger Tiger Tiger Woods Ya'll.
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Golf is not an easy sport to play, (Speaking from experience) And it's not easy being great either. Tiger had his chance but he chose hookers. Second best of all time is still good!
 
I took my 10 year old cousin up for a flight in a 152 while they visited us here in FL. I really wanted him to get the same interest in aviation like I did. However, 5 minutes after takeoff he has glued to his phone :(
 
Acrodustertoo said:
Of course GA is going away! Unless you are in a position to not blink an eye at the cost of a rebuild. Most people I talk to are blown away at the costs. For the working class people like myself, experimental is the on,y way to afford flying and even then you have to do away with other fun things and most families can find better ways to spend money that will benefit everyone, not just the pilot. Look at how much it costs just to get a ppl! That kind of money would be better spent on a boob job or the kids education, but the folks in aviation think that throwing money at things is the only answer, I would continue to rant but I have to go be with my family.
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It's obscene what some parts cost. A new set of cylinders for my A65 retails for $5800! Those of us owning and flying real antiques are slowly being squeezed out because of a dearth of spare parts. I'd consider hanging a newer engine in the old girl, but an overhauled C85 would cost nearly what the whole plane is worth. I think experimental is one way to go to get something "modern" at reasonable cost, but then one has to invest thousands of hours to build anything!
 
brien23 said:
For the training required and time spent along with the cost for a A&P you can do better flipping burgers.
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Odd. Aviation is expensive, but no one seems to make any money. Not the pilots, not the manufacturers, not the mechanics. Where does all of the money go?
 
N659HB said:
It's obscene what some parts cost. A new set of cylinders for my A65 retails for $5800! Those of us owning and flying real antiques are slowly being squeezed out because of a dearth of spare parts. I'd consider hanging a newer engine in the old girl, but an overhauled C85 would cost nearly what the whole plane is worth. I think experimental is one way to go to get something "modern" at reasonable cost, but then one has to invest thousands of hours to build anything!
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Must be a crappt plane, or a over priced engine.
 
N659HB said:
Whatever. One man's trash is another's treasure.
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More like just not knowing the market.

Sit on the websites for a while and you can find low time c85s for under 10k ASKING price, and we both know asking and getting prices are different.

The only C85 powered planes I've seen for under 10k were piles of dog crap.

Not trying to be rude, but your logic doesn't apply to most of the fleet (non junk planes).


mscard88 said:
Tactful as ever eh James. :rolleyes:
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Just calling them as I see em' hope no one needed a "safe space" after that post ;)
 
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Bob Noel said:
I sold my airplane 4 years ago because of the expense of equipping with ADS-B out.

If I ever fly again will depend on the third class medical reform implementation and how my retirement goes...
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Oh come on. You sold your airplane 8 years before the mandate, because of a $5000 (or much less as new options continue to become available) upgrade? That's ridiculous. You may have sold it for very good reason, but blaming it on a nearly decade-away mandate is BS.
 
All the doom and gloom replies in this thread are reason enough to run someone with a curiosity and interest in learning to fly off. Plenty of replies trying to dispel the notion, but if a potential student came to research about being a pilot and read through all of this, they'd be well within reason to consider another hobby. It's like some of you want a self-fulfilling prophesy.

Sure, there aren't as many pilots as there once were. Sure, there aren't many new, "affordable" planes and the existing fleet is old. Sure, things cost money to maintain and operate. Big whoops - some or all of that applies to any hobby or luxury. It's not for everybody and not everybody can afford it, but the cries of GA's demise and the "evidence" some are stating to support that seem like just a convenient excuse for why somebody doesn't fly or own a plane anymore (especially the "ADS-B forced me out" one). Just like in the Retirement thread, everyone's situation is different, but it doesn't mean we're all doomed.
 
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PPC1052 said:
Odd. Aviation is expensive, but no one seems to make any money. Not the pilots, not the manufacturers, not the mechanics. Where does all of the money go?
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I know their is money in aviation as I have put a lot of money in it myself.


Hourly Aviation Pay Rates
Min Hourly
Avg Hourly
Max Hourly

Accounting and Finance
$8.00
$9.00
$10.00

Airport
$8.00
$12.95
$29.19

AP Mechanic
$15.00
$25.43
$43.00

Avionics
$7.25
$36.93
$100.00

Business Operations
$8.50
$12.87
$17.80

Cargo and Freight
$10.00
$11.00
$12.00

Dispatch and Scheduling
$16.00
$13,346.00
$50,000.00

Engineering
$90,000.00
$95,000.00
$100,000.00

Ground Operations
$10.00
$12.91
$19.88

Instructor
$20.00
$30.38
$43.00

Maintenance
$10.00
$25.98
$43.00

Manufacturing and Fabrication
$10.00
$12.50
$19.00

Other
$8.00
$11.33
$17.50

Pilot Fixed Wing
$37.70
$21,268.85
$65,000.00

Accounting and Finance
$11.96
$14.95
$17.94

Airport
$11.63
$17.96
$26.52

AP Mechanic
$15.00
$22.95
$31.00

Avionics
$23.00
$29.00
$40.00

Business Operations
$9.00
$11.25
$15.00

Cargo and Freight
$12.00
$17.67
$25.00

Dispatch and Scheduling
$10.00
$12.25
$13.00

Ground Operations
$10.00
$15.47
$21.00

Instructor
$14.50
$17.25
$20.00

Maintenance
$16.00
$26.23
$40.00

Manufacturing and Fabrication
$30.00
$35.00
$40.00

Other
$12.00
$39.13
$150.00

Pilot Fixed Wing
$20.00
$51.25
$95.00

Sales and Marketing
$16.00
$31.00
$50.00
 
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I've read through this thread, here is another reason (I think) GA is "dying" that has not been mentioned yet:

Flying embodies virtues and attitudes that are anathema to modern culture. There is no activity you can engage in where you are more completely dependent on your judgement. There is no one to bail you out, no do-overs. If you make a mistake driving you have air bags and there are plenty of controls to keep you in check--cameras, gps tracking, cops. Even the river that I live on has tons of rangers that keep an eye on the kayakers. I remember getting chewed out for letting my kids climb a tree in the local park. We live in an increasingly regulated society where authorities make decisions for us keep us safe, and by and large we have bought into it and are willing participants. When I take people flying the most common question/reaction I get is surprise/horror that I can fly anywhere I want without flying a flight plan, people assume that we are controlled in the sky just like the rest of our/their lives are controlled. This wasn't forced on us by an outside power, this came from us. Every time we file a lawsuit where we want recompense for not being protected from the consequences of our own decisions, our countenance a lawsuit that does, a little bit of our independence dies. To sum up, the only people that fly GA are those who retain these values, and our numbers are dwindling.

I'm not sure this is good or bad, it's just different. To the extent that we retain some freedom to judge and act for ourselves, I have no question that a time traveler from 150 years ago or even 75 years ago would be shocked by how much autonomy and personal responsibility we have given up. Societies change. Enjoy the remaining freedom that we have not yet sold for safety and security!
 
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