Why you always check for NOTAMS

A friend of mine frequently made late night departures from the John Wayne Orange County Airport in Santa Ana, CA (KSNA). After the tower closed each night the shorter parallel runway was closed and the ATIS recording usually said, "landings and departures on runway 19R/1L; runway 19L/1R closed."

Well, on one particular night the ATIS droned, "landings and departures on runway 19L/1R; runway 19R/1L closed," and my friend heard what he was used to hearing. But on this night it was the long runway that was closed. He was near rotation speed on 19R when the right wing of his Saratoga hit a piece of construction equipment left unlighted on the closed runway.

Nobody was hurt, and while the substantially-damaged airplane was being repaired my friend got a 90-day sit-down from FAA.
 
bbchien said:
Grant, anywhere there's a big crowd at an airport means something is happening and is a good clue to stay away. Had a near tragedy today at the C75 fly in breakfast, and that involves kids and propellors.

Such crowds, most likely don't involve aviators.
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I am not trying to pick on you Bruce, but this just doesn't make sense. Are you saying that pilots should avoid flying where there are groups of people, like flight breakfasts? You might have had a near tragedy with a kid out on the ramp, but that is a whole other safety issue. We just had four days of the American Barnstormers Tour here. We were running flight ops in and out of the airport just like usual. Huge crowds, lots of traffic, three or four barnstormers giving rides all day long, food vendors, and all the while we had students flying lessons, corporate jets coming in and out, and general aviation conducting business as usual. Now I don't know if there was a NOTAM out there warning pilots of all the activity, but the "if you see a crowd, you shouldn't land regardless" doesn't work for me. Frankly, if I saw a crowd at an airport, I would be tempted to land just to see what was going on.

Now I will say that I'm surprised that there are not more mishaps at flight breakfasts. I've gone to a few, and it is always a free for all trying to get into the pattern and on the ground. Most of the ones that I have attended are at airports with one runway, and you have to back taxi to get back to the ramp. It is a good thing that everyone is talking. I've been forced to pull off the runway into the grass to get out of the way because someone else is landing right on my ass. I figure that it part of the allure. I don't spend a lot of time thinking or talking about what the other guy should have been doing, A lot of people like to do that, but I have plenty on my plate just taking care of myself. I could write a page or two about crazy things that I have seen go on, but I'm sure anyone here who has been to one could too. In fact, I could probably write a page or two about the crazy things that I've ended up doing that didn't seem so crazy at the time.

I have to wonder though, why would they close down an airport so that a 4-H club can shoot rockets? I wonder why they didn't go out to a park. Oh well, I'm sure it was a good idea when they were planning it.
 
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Maxmosbey said:
Frankly, if I saw a crowd at an airport, I would be tempted to land just to see what was going on.
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Max, you'll feel this way until you nearly avert or have an injury to an agressive dad or to an unshepherded kid on the ramp (as in DAD wants the ride, not the kid). One of those will change the way you do things.

It is for this reason that I utterly stopped doing Young Eagles. It's a lawsuit waiting to happen. You cannot get enough ground marshalling to control the mob.
 
bbchien said:
Max, you'll feel this way until you nearly avert or have an injury to an agressive dad or to an unshepherded kid on the ramp (as in DAD wants the ride, not the kid). One of those will change the way you do things.

It is for this reason that I utterly stopped doing Young Eagles. It's a lawsuit waiting to happen. You cannot get enough ground marshalling to control the mob.
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Unless you have controlled ingress/egress, some sort of lineup and accountability system, and someone watching the whole thing you can trust, you're absolutely right -- someone's bound to get hurt and you know it's going to be one of those rich pilots who's going to pay.
 
bbchien said:
Max, you'll feel this way until you nearly avert or have an injury to an agressive dad or to an unshepherded kid on the ramp (as in DAD wants the ride, not the kid). One of those will change the way you do things.

It is for this reason that I utterly stopped doing Young Eagles. It's a lawsuit waiting to happen. You cannot get enough ground marshalling to control the mob.
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That is a parenting problem. I do agree with you on two points, I think that sometimes these things are not real organized, and understaffed. It is easy for things to get out of control. I also agree that some of these things are lawsuits waiting to happen. A lot of small towns out here are having "bike nights". They close down the center of the business district, have a thousand people show up on motorcycles, then the JCs sell them as much beer as they can while everyone walks around profiling. That, is a lawsuit waiting to happen.
 
NOTAM System Outage Planned

And sometimes they make it difficult for you to check NOTAMs. Glad they're doing this overnight, but think about all the lights OTS that won't be disseminated!

US NOTAM System Scheduled Outage Planned
Notice Number: NOTC1263
US NOTAM System has scheduled a system outage for maintenance starting Monday 23 June 2008 at 0400 UTC until 1000 UTC. US, Iraq , and Afghanistan NOTAM processing will stop at that time. All systems displaying US, Iraq , and Afghanistan NOTAMs will not be updated during this time.

During the system outage, urgent civilian and military safety of flight information received by the US NOTAM Office will be accessible via PilotWeb and DINS using the following URL:

https://pilotweb.nas.faa.gov/qryhtml/outage/outageNOTAMs.html


All CONUS, Hawaii , and Puerto Rico candidate D NOTAMs will be accessible using the following URL:

http://usnotemp.lme-notam.com

For additional information about this item please contact:
 [SIZE=-0] Talwyn Haley
[/SIZE] System Operations Security
202-267-8448
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gprellwitz said:
Bruce,
I see reference to a 4H rocket launching, not an airshow. And there is reason to believe that the NOTAM at least was not properly disseminated, if it was ever published at all. I'm not sure that I would recognize a rocket launching? Does it happen at the runway? On the ramp? In the field around the runway? I could easily believe that it's not something that would be intuitively obvious as a dangerous situation, unless they're carrying pyrotechnic devices. Sounds like they stopped launching while the airplane was in the pattern.

Dan, what did you find when you did the additional research? Also, did anyone attempt to contact the on the radio? It doesn't sound as if they did. (And I'm not saying they had any obligation to do so; just curious.)
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I did contact him after I went after my radio, By the way I was there as a reporter not part of the 4H. It looked like he was coming back to do more landings so I contacted him. He just said sorry and left the area. I probably jumped the gun by assuming that the NOTAM was posted. I know that they have to bring up the use of the airport at the committee meeting and I hear that they will post a NOTAM to close the airport at that time. This airport is run by a secretary (Airport manager) and a retired old guy (Commissioner). This was the first time I covered the rocket launching, they do it mid field and the rockets do not go that high. They do however once in a while go haywire and do not go straight up.

I checked for he NOTAM because I wanted to see how hard it was to see. Maybe it just slipped by the pilot. That is when I kept checking more sources and found I could not even find it. The airport manager has been at some kind of training and not available I will find out on Monday though.

Dan
 
Maxmosbey said:
I have to wonder though, why would they close down an airport so that a 4-H club can shoot rockets? I wonder why they didn't go out to a park. Oh well, I'm sure it was a good idea when they were planning it.
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I am not sure about this but I think they have to have a NOTAM 5 miles when shooting off these rockets. It does not matter where they are it would still be a 5 mile no fly zone.

Dan
 
bbchien said:
Max, you'll feel this way until you nearly avert or have an injury to an agressive dad or to an unshepherded kid on the ramp (as in DAD wants the ride, not the kid). One of those will change the way you do things.

It is for this reason that I utterly stopped doing Young Eagles. It's a lawsuit waiting to happen. You cannot get enough ground marshalling to control the mob.
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About six years ago I had an incident with a Young Eagle that made me absolutely swear that I would NEVER take kids flying again. :no: I was just sick about it. That was about 200 Young Eagles ago. I try to manage the risk the best that I can.
 
stingray said:
I am not sure about this but I think they have to have a NOTAM 5 miles when shooting off these rockets. It does not matter where they are it would still be a 5 mile no fly zone.

Dan
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I believe these rocket notams are advisory only. There is no "no fly" zone associated with them as a rule. Also, the radius and ceiling can vary greatly, depending on the size of the rockets involved. Up to FL500 in some cases. If the airport wishes to temporarily close for some reason, including rocket launches, that's their prerogative.
 
gprellwitz said:
I believe these rocket notams are advisory only. There is no "no fly" zone associated with them as a rule. Also, the radius and ceiling can vary greatly, depending on the size of the rockets involved. Up to FL500 in some cases. If the airport wishes to temporarily close for some reason, including rocket launches, that's their prerogative.
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The rocketeers will post a range safety officer to watch the skies and shut down ops if a plane gets too near the area.

If you are interested in rocketry of high powered rocketry (HPR) Pete and I have done, but also check this out. http://www.tripoli.org/

There is a reasonable amount of aerodynamics that you learn to make your rocket stable in flight and you get into a lot of thrust vs. weight issues to calculate altitudes.

The FAA requires any rocket of 16oz or flights over 1000' AGL to have a waiver to be launched. Many rocket clubs get a group waiver so their members can launch.

HPR can be very huge.

This is video of a 14lb rocket lanched at Bong recreation area near Westosha.
http://www.coolrocketry.com/Video/WarlockJ350.mpg

A few years back some guys built a 1/3 scale Mercury Redstone rocket and launched it. It required a "p" sized engine. That is 80,000 Newtons of energy or in terms that more cna understand 18,000 lbs of thrust
 
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Some pics of the rockets that I have flown. These are medium sized ones. There are guys flying ones much bigger. So take note of those rocket launch NOTAMS
 

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smigaldi said:
Some pics of the rockets that I have flown. These are medium sized ones. There are guys flying ones much bigger. So take note of those rocket launch NOTAMS
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Should we be impressed by the size?





:goofy:
 
My Scott, are those rockets you're holding or are you just happy to see us? :D

(Hey, SOMEBODY had to say it!)
 
Diana said:
About six years ago I had an incident with a Young Eagle that made me absolutely swear that I would NEVER take kids flying again. :no: I was just sick about it. That was about 200 Young Eagles ago. I try to manage the risk the best that I can.
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Wow Diana... What happened? :eek:

Maxmosbey said:
Frankly, if I saw a crowd at an airport, I would be tempted to land just to see what was going on.
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I wonder if that's what happened when that Luscombe landed opposite direction while I was on final for runway 9 at OSH during last year's Airventure? I wonder if it was the young men in camo, or the bright-shirted individuals coming towards him to see his N number that made him decide to depart again, against the flow of traffic? :mad:
 
Diana said:
About six years ago I had an incident with a Young Eagle that made me absolutely swear that I would NEVER take kids flying again. :no: I was just sick about it. That was about 200 Young Eagles ago. I try to manage the risk the best that I can.
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That's about all any of us can do otherwise we would NEVER leave our homes. Life is full of risk. Handle it!
 
flyingcheesehead said:
I wonder if that's what happened when that Luscombe landed opposite direction while I was on final for runway 9 at OSH during last year's Airventure? I wonder if it was the young men in camo, or the bright-shirted individuals coming towards him to see his N number that made him decide to depart again, against the flow of traffic? :mad:
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I doubt it. I would guess that he was confused.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
If by "confused" you mean "landed at Oshkosh without having a clue what week of the year it was," you're probably right. He obviously didn't have the NOTAM. :no: :mad:
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How do you know that he had no idea that Airventure was going on at Oshkosh? My guess would be that he was just another pilot coming in for the festivities and got confused. I've seen that happen plenty of times. We were following a plane into Iowa City for their flight breakfast last year, and he was calling down wind on runway 25, when it was pretty obvious that he was downwind on 30. At the last minute he realized his mistake, and veered to the left right in front of us onto a base for 25. My first thought wasn't that he didn't read a NOTAM, or even that he was stupid, my first thought was that he was confused. I've been there myself. That is why I kept telling myself that the guy was going to figure out what was going on, and was going to come right across my bow as soon as he did. Nobody is perfect. I'll bet that when the guy in the luscombe figured out that he tried to land down wind, he was plenty embarrassed.
 
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Maxmosbey said:
How do you know that he had no idea that Airventure was going on at Oshkosh? My guess would be that he was just another pilot coming in for the festivities and got confused. I've seen that happen plenty of times.
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If you have the NOTAM, you know there is going to be a metric assload of traffic, and a procedure that must be followed. If you've read the NOTAM, you know that procedure involves listening to at least two controllers, and being cleared to land in a specific runway on a specific spot.

If you get confused, you do NOT land at OSH without being cleared. In fact, if you see OSH and you're still confused, you turn around and go elsewhere to get un-confused.

And if you've been dumb enough not to do all of that, at least when you're on the ground (if you've gotten to the level that your confusion creates an emergency), you DO NOT take off directly into the flow of traffic! :no: :mad:

I'll give some people the benefit of the doubt, but not this guy. This was blatant, dangerous, stupidity.

We were following a plane into Iowa City for their flight breakfast last year, and he was calling down wind on runway 25, when it was pretty obvious that he was downwind on 30. At the last minute he realized his mistake, and veered to the left right in front of us onto a base for 25. My first thought wasn't that he didn't read a NOTAM, or even that he was stupid, my first thought was that he was confused. I've been there myself. That is why I kept telling myself that the guy was going to figure out what was going on, and was going to come right across my bow as soon as he did. Nobody is perfect. I'll bet that when the guy in the luscombe figured out that he tried to land down wind, he was plenty embarrassed.
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I've been confused too, but as soon as I realized I was confused I did something about it which did NOT involve landing without a clearance at the busiest airport in the world. And if he had a single brain cell firing after landing, he'd have just gotten the heck off the runway onto the taxiways, rather than taking off again into the flow of traffic. That's an "Oh **** I'm going to get in trouble" move.

You don't happen to fly a Luscombe, do you? ;)
 
flyingcheesehead said:
If by "confused" you mean "landed at Oshkosh without having a clue what week of the year it was," you're probably right. He obviously didn't have the NOTAM. :no: :mad:
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Kent, it wasn't just not having the NOTAM. Even when AirVenture ISN'T going on, OSH is a towered airport, and he hadn't established communication! :no:
 
I'm kinda wondering what the quantitative difference is between a "metric assload" and an "English assload"?
 
Would that be equivalent to the Iowa "Crap ton", I keep hearing Tony referring to all the time?????
 
Max will have his luscombe this fall. after he wins the raffle im going to fly it home for him :)

Crapton, Metric Assload, its all the same...
 
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