Why should I not buy a Cessna 421.??

Zeldman

Touchdown! Greaser!
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Billy
Just for fun, tell me why I should stay away from a C-421.

And remember I fly people for a living. I don't fly my slack jawed friends around on fair weather days just for fun...:lol::lol:
 
Because the cabin is small and noisy. Maintainence costs will eat you alive if you can even get parts and of course the engines will never get to tbo even though you replace every cylinder twice trying to get there...........other than that rush right out, bring cash


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Wonderful airplane. I flew 135 for an outfit with two Cs and an A and enjoyed every minute. But I was not paying the bills. The owner had megabucks, and that is what it takes.

Bob
 
If you are flying people for a living, I'd pony up the extra dough for a King Air 90. Better curb appeal, and less of a chance of losing trips due to mechanical issues.
 
Give me your reason to buy one?
This is the best response. If you don't have a good reason to buy one, then you shouldn't.

But the other responses are good too.
 
I fly a 421C occasionally at work. It is one of the few airplanes I have flown that I dislike, although I will submit a disclaimer: this airplane is the only 421 I’ve flown, so it’s possible that it’s just that particular airframe that is a turd, but turd it is.

It’s an overly complicated, finicky airplane that burns a ton of gas and is constantly going into the shop for maintenance. Range sucks. We typically have to stop for fuel every 2 hours when hauling an appreciable pax load. With 4-5 people onboard, I could beat a 421 in speed with my 150 kt Beech 18 simply by avoiding all the fuel stops. And I burn less fuel in the Beech 18!

Also, I know more people who have lost an engine on a 421 than any other twin.

Also the hardest piston to hot start.

I’m not a fan.
 
Because you should buy something more luxurious like a King Air.
 
The first questions I’d have is, will this plane have a job? How many hours per year do you think it will be flown?
 
But PC-12’s are still really expensive compared to early King air 90’s. Big leap in price between a 421 and a PC-12

Then again - PC12 has better resale value, way cheaper maintenance, it's faster, and burns way less gas than a non-F-90.
 
@Zeldman Obviously you need a plane with a "cool" factor. That 421 just will not do. I thought the King Air was the answer but I like the Pilatus suggestions as well. Listen to reason (POA). :)
 
@Zeldman Obviously you need a plane with a "cool" factor. That 421 just will not do. I thought the King Air was the answer but I like the Pilatus suggestions as well. Listen to reason (POA). :)

Well, if it’s cool you want, then everyone knows you look cooler in a Duke!
 
Give me your reason to buy one?

To make money. I know, to make a small pile of money start with a big pile.... :lol::lol:

The first questions I’d have is, will this plane have a job? How many hours per year do you think it will be flown?

Yes. looking to start with one plane, one trip a day, 5 days a week, 5 hours per day. That may increase up to 4 trips per day within 6 months.

I like Beechcraft, but they the reality is a PC-12 beats most King Airs any day.

King air 90 is out. That is pretty much a trainer that cost too much and not enough in return. I know companies make money with them, mostly because they are paid for and you can hire newbie pilots to fly them for a pittance. The PC-12 would actually meet the mission requirements, but the financer is not on board with paying that much money. They found a 421 for $149,000 and think that is the way to go. (I told them no way no how I am going to fly that plane) The biggest hurdle right now it to convince them that a cheap airplane will save money now, but get very expensive quickly when we lose trips due to maintenance problems.
 
Yes. looking to start with one plane, one trip a day, 5 days a week, 5 hours per day. That may increase up to 4 trips per day within 6 months.



King air 90 is out. That is pretty much a trainer that cost too much and not enough in return. I know companies make money with them, mostly because they are paid for and you can hire newbie pilots to fly them for a pittance. The PC-12 would actually meet the mission requirements, but the financer is not on board with paying that much money. They found a 421 for $149,000 and think that is the way to go. (I told them no way no how I am going to fly that plane) The biggest hurdle right now it to convince them that a cheap airplane will save money now, but get very expensive quickly when we lose trips due to maintenance problems.

I think the 421 and other similar planes have a niche market, mainly privately owned low use. When you start trying to run frequent, semi-scheduled flights it may not be the way to go due to downtime with needed maintenance and unforeseen problems.

The good news is that 421 acquisition costs will be low, which sounds like it is a concern for this prospective customer. They also aren’t required to be on a maintenance program, which is kind of nice.

Overall, I could see this as being a good starting point for a business or individual to test the waters of airplane ownership as a business tool. I would expect there may be discussion of an upgrade sooner rather than later if it is determined to be a success.
 
When you start trying to run frequent, semi-scheduled flights it may not be the way to go due to downtime with needed maintenance and unforeseen problems.

Thank you, I am trying to tell everyone just that.
 
Billy, don’t buy a 421 for your mission. Trust me on this one.

Seriously, get an MU-2. Call me if you want my opinion on why.
 
Does it have to be pressurized? Would a Navajo work?

We have discussed a Navajo. Weather will be something to deal with in winter. I have certainly iced up a few Navajos in Alaska, so I know they take ice well. 8 passenger seats would be a bonus.
 
They found a 421 for $149,000 and think that is the way to go. (I told them no way no how I am going to fly that plane) The biggest hurdle right now it to convince them that a cheap airplane will save money now, but get very expensive quickly when we lose trips due to maintenance problems.
That’s pretty cheap for a 421. High probability of a maintenance pig. Run away!
 
That’s pretty cheap for a 421. High probability of a maintenance pig. Run away!

My experience with the 414 would agree with this assessment.

@Zeldman should get an MU-2. More later when I’m at a computer.
 
i've always enjoyed my time in 421's. I probably have 350 hrs between B & C models. I was never paying the bills, I was just flying the plane and writing squawks. I think Fearless and I have discussed here his 421 operation and how it limits their legs. I recall a combination of two pilots, extra high fuel flows and extra large fuel reserves all contributing.

Yea if you want to run 5 days a week 5 hrs a day in one of these you should probably budget a mechanic along with the airplane. You're going to be doing an oil change every weekend and a 100hr every month.

When I was in college I observed and confirmed with our shop that the plane spent an hour in the shop for every 5 in the air. That includes regular and unscheduled maintenance.
 
There’s probably a reason that there are 81 421s for sale on controller right now...
Not too long ago, like two years ago, the "good ones" got snapped up rather quickly for real money,

My guess is that with the great economy guys are going to TPs or legacy jets.
 
My guess is that with the great economy guys are going to TPs or legacy jets.
Similar situation with the one we have. Owner ended up buying a jet and doesn’t want to put any money into the 421, so he’s going to have a heck of a time selling it (it has no autopilot or yaw damper which makes it a miserable pig to fly). So he just dry leases it.
 
Because they have those pesky geared engines!

Geared engines are not the issue, pilots are :D
Note: I have never owned a 421, this is from other 421 owners. Apparently, you have learn to fly the plane the way it was meant to be flown, and read the POH.

Tim
 
Alright.

Reasons not to buy a 421:

1) They break. A lot. Everything below is basically a subset of 1. There are plenty of 421 owners who will argue with you about that, but talk to them long enough (and talk to their mechanics long enough) and you'll ultimately realize that getting 25 hours per week out of one is going to be difficult, even if you buy a top-notch one.
2) The airframes aren't supported all that great, which is a problem when 1) comes up. Cessna wants them all gone. When they break, getting parts can challenging and expensive. Fortunately there are enough wrecked/scrapped ones that you can find a lot of parts in junkyards, but that doesn't work for a lot of them. Got an engine beam that goes bad? That's an enormous job to change (did that on the 414, same thing). And you need to buy either a new one from Cessna (which I recall is $10k) or a PMA part from TAS Aviation or RAM Aircraft (who distributes them) for $5k.
3) The geared engines are fine if treated properly, and I have no doubts that @Zeldman can operate them just fine. The problem is that they still break with regularity and will have little nagging issues, moreso than the direct drive. Oh, but they also have some issues that pop up unexpectedly, moreso than the direct drive equivalents. Issues like losing prime to the oil pump (so start it up and have 0 oil pressure) and engine failures on takeoff (happens much more regularly than direct drive engines). These are the reasons why I went after a 414 instead of the 421, and why 414s fetch more money than their 421 counterparts these days.

At the end of the day, you need a reliable aircraft that you can depend on for a mission like this. A $150k 421C is not going to be it. Going into the 414, I basically didn't have any choice but to go that route if I was going to manage an upgrade for Cloud Nine. We have a lot of advantages - some great sponsors who really helped pull us up, and my ability to turn wrenches. In spite of that, the plane had approximately 50% downtime on that airplane over the 2 years we owned it. We could've improved that some, but in reality I don't see it having been much better than 25% downtime over that period.

Wayne Bower used to say that you could operate a similar turboprop for about the same as a 414/421, and he's right. So, why to buy an MU-2:

1) It's not an airplane for everyone, but it is a good fit for a professional who will fly it the way it needs to be flown. Zeldman is a professional, he will do fine with it
2) Vs. the 414 and even factoring in the cost of the hot section we had to do first thing, the MU-2's operating costs are much cheaper. The plane is a tank - 1500 lbs heavier empty weight than a 425, 700 lbs heavier empty weight than a Cheyenne II. All that weight is in the structure. Yeah, my fuel bill is higher, but not by that much (CAA is a wonderful thing) and that's all I put in it - fuel
3) Because of this, it doesn't break a lot. Support from MHIA is excellent, and there are a lot of wrecked or scrapped aircraft that are available for parts purposes. The inspections are well defined. 100 hour, 200 hour (these two occur at a maximum of 1 year) and then beyond that there's 3-year/600 hour, and various other total airframe time inspections. My 100/200/annual, even going to one of the Mitsubishi service centers with optional items to be done, was cheaper than I managed on the 414 using small, independent A&Ps. It's just a great airplane

A $150k 421C will cost over $150k in the first 1-2 years.
 
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