Why recreational pilots suck

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Alexb2000

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Alexb2000
We all know from reading these boards that every pilot here is an absolute bad ass, so this is just a statement about recreational pilots in general.

In Texas I am based at a very busy GA airport, KADS. There are several schools on the field and many recreational pilots. I've noticed a trend that really bothers me, that is people only fly recreationally on calm, pleasant, beautiful, absolutely perfect mornings.

Such a Saturday morning and you'll be 10 back for departure.

BUT:

Same day except the wind is 20-25 nearly right down the runway... nobody

Same day with a 15 knot crosswind.... nobody

Same day with clouds and rain (no convection).... nobody

Night: students doing the minimum requirements or.... nobody

Almost all the traffic on the less than ideal days are professionals who have to fly in any flyable conditions.

If I am honest with myself I could easily fall into the same trap. The only difference for me is that I fly from place to place on a schedule and primarily for transportation. That adds just enough pressure that I find myself in many conditions that given the choice I would be tempted do something else with my day.

Somehow making pilots fly regularly in less than ideal conditions would be the easiest way to improve safety IMO.

What say you?
 
Do you mean recreational as in FAR 61.101? or recreational as in just for fun not going anywhere? So what, they are flying and enjoying themselves, let them pick and choose the flying conditions they are operating in, as they clearly are. Who knows maybe they are flying when you arent at the airport??

Example: Right now I fly for the enjoyment only, not to go necessarily go anywhere, flying just to be flying and getting bounced around just isn't fun or really in the mission of my flying.

I'm personally happy to see people flying instead of just letting their airplane rot away..
 
So, you're mad about pilots who are overly safety conscious? I'm all for going out with a CFI in that stuff, but as a low hour pilot, I really don't trust myself with anything more than 15 xwind or 25 down the runway. plus, what if the winds shift? Rain reduces visibility, and just because it's legal it doesn't mean it's safe. I don't plan on ever flying in 3-5sm vis until I get my IR.
 
Pilots flying more is def good to keep the skills sharp, but I will never be in the camp of "making anyone do anything!" None of my business. If they just want to fly on calm sunny days, .......... carry on.
 
I'm not sure that this is a new concept. A lot of people who fly for fun never push themselves and never improve as a result.

Personally I like flying on challenging days. Some of the crappy weather we've had recently has left me wanting to go flying just for fun. But I'm "special."
 
People suck, when the sun is out the beach is crowded. Raining and the mall is crowded. Why can't these retards shop in the sun and go to the beach in the rain?
 
VanDy said:
Do you mean recreational as in FAR 61.101? or recreational as in just for fun not going anywhere? So what, they are flying and enjoying themselves, let them pick and choose the flying conditions they are operating in, as they clearly are. Who knows maybe they are flying when you arent at the airport??

Example: Right now I fly for the enjoyment only, not to go necessarily go anywhere, flying just to be flying and getting bounced around just isn't fun or really in the mission of my flying.

I'm personally happy to see people flying instead of just letting their airplane rot away..
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I mean recreational as just flying for fun, pilot could hold any rating.
 
ebykowsky said:
So, you're mad about pilots who are overly safety conscious? I'm all for going out with a CFI in that stuff, but as a low hour pilot, I really don't trust myself with anything more than 15 xwind or 25 down the runway. plus, what if the winds shift? Rain reduces visibility, and just because it's legal it doesn't mean it's safe. I don't plan on ever flying in 3-5sm vis until I get my IR.
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That's exactly what bothers me, the perception that this behavior is "safety conscious". Any pilot should be 100% comfortable in any of the above (except IFR or night if not rated).

Ted DuPuis said:
I'm not sure that this is a new concept. A lot of people who fly for fun never push themselves and never improve as a result.

Personally I like flying on challenging days. Some of the crappy weather we've had recently has left me wanting to go flying just for fun. But I'm "special."
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You're just a bad ass, so you don't count.
 
EdFred said:
Divide and conquer is working.
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The statstics are pretty clear on safety. While I wouldn't take as abrasive a tone about it and believe everyone should be free to fly into a mountain if they so choose, we also need to attract more folks to aviation in general if we want to keep it going and have any hope of lowering prices. Continued flying into mountains doesn't help that.
 
ClimbnSink said:
People suck, when the sun is out the beach is crowded. Raining and the mall is crowded. Why can't these retards shop in the sun and go to the beach in the rain?
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Yeah... and let's "make" them do that, somehow. :confused:
If a given pilot is not comfy in less than ideal conditions, and is never tempted to fly in such conditions, that doesnt bother me. I see no benefit in pressuring meeker milder pilots to expand their personal limits, unless theyre going to start flying XC regularly (which kinda takes them out of the meek and mild category anyway).
And if everybody flew when it was windy or overcast or whatever , theyd probably all stl fly on those nice days, too.
 
I definitely would not say rec pilots suck! They became pilots to enjoy flight, not to prove how bad ass they are. I think judging another's decision making to fly on absolute clear days is another aviation nono. Maybe one day you'll become friends with one and take one up, then you can see what they can do
 
Alexb2000 said:
Your just a bad ass, so you don't count.
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I was waiting for someone in the Cirrus thread to complain in response to my strobe light preference "What, you can't see a plane with only nav lights on?" To which I would point out I've landed visually at night in the middle of a thunderstorm so heavy I then couldn't see the taxiway to get back to the FBO until rain subsided, and performed a visual approach in 100 ft overcast (legally) to a gravel runway in the middle of a forrest, so clearly it's not a matter of what I can or cannot see.

But I have also become increasingly safety conscious as years have passed. And interestingly, that has not resulted in a reduction in personal minimums for winds, weather, etc.
 
Corpsmaide said:
I definitely would not say rec pilots suck! They became pilots to enjoy flight, not to prove how bad ass they are. I think judging another's decision making to fly on absolute clear days is another aviation nono. Maybe one day you'll become friends with one and take one up, then you can see what they can do
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It's not about proving how bad ass they are (I don't think those conditions are the least bit extreme). It's about keeping skills current and responsibility when carrying passengers. They should have been comfortable with at least several of the examples I gave when they got their rating (whatever it is), if they've lost that comfort level then they are unsafe.
 
Alexb2000 said:
It's not about proving how bad ass they are (I don't think those conditions are the least bit extreme). It's about keeping skills current and responsibility when carrying passengers. They should have been comfortable with at least several of the examples I gave when they got their rating (whatever it is), if they've lost that comfort level then they are unsafe.
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Maybe they are comfortable in nasty conditions but would rather fly for fun in the sun. Do you know these guys individually? Probably pro pilots flying for fun on their day off, if you fly in the slag for work, why would you do that on weekends for fun?
 
I should point out, I don't intend to land again ineither of the above stated landing conditions. Those were the result of poor planning and getting out of a situation that I got myself into.
 
ClimbnSink said:
Maybe they are comfortable in nasty conditions but would rather fly for fun in the sun. Do you know these guys individually? Probably pro pilots flying for fun on their day off, if you fly in the slag for work, why would you do that on weekends for fun?
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That is what I was just thinking! We better send somebody out to interview them all and see just what skill set they have and what they do when we arent watching!
 
I can't say on my days off from work (flying) that I feel too much like pushing myself. I want to relax, not to work.
 
We should make all recreational boaters test their skills during small craft warnings too.

:rolleyes:
 
Alexb2000 said:
Same day except the wind is 20-25 nearly right down the runway... nobody

Same day with a 15 knot crosswind.... nobody

Same day with clouds and rain (no convection).... nobody

Night: students doing the minimum requirements or.... nobody


What say you?
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I want to fly, and not to wrestle with a plane, or get soaked during preflight. 20-25 right down the runway can change to right across the runway. Chances are that it won't, but why risk it? 15kt crosswind is not fun. What if you simply cannot land it. Will you circle around waiting for things to change or try to find alternate field with lower crosswind component?

I am not a badass pilot, I don't pretend to be one, and honestly, I don't want to be one. For me, I would take safety over bragging rights that I land at 15kt xwind anytime.

These are hardly "not ideal conditions", and are downright "dangerous conditions". A 152 max crosswind is around 12, I believe.
 
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If you're doing something for fun, why do it in conditions that don't make it fun? It seems obvious.

It's just like snow skiing. Those of us who travel to the mountains one week a year ski every day regardless of conditions, we aren't picky. The people who live on the mountain only ski on perfect days.

Nothing wrong with either situation.
 
Nothing wrong with anybody flying. The more folks who do it the better off we'll all be.
 
Alexb2000 said:
That's exactly what bothers me, the perception that this behavior is "safety conscious". Any pilot should be 100% comfortable in any of the above (except IFR or night if not rated).
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25 kts - it's just not fun bouncing around like that. I go sailing from time to time in 35 kts winds. That isn't fun either. I like to do what is fun. If I have to, I can fly in it. I get a kick out of landing with a 30 kt ground speed, it makes short field landings easy :)


I have no problem flying at night other than it tends to get in the way of that sleep thing I also have to do. I've had my private about 2 years and I'd estimate that I've been night current for 18 months of that. I do have a problem flying at night when there are clouds that I might accidently fly into.

I'll admit to not being as sharp as I'd like to be on crosswinds. So, my safety compensation for that is that I don't push what little crosswind ability I have. What I should do is get out on a high crosswind day with an instructor and knock it out.

Low visibility - I'm just not going to do it. As a student I did some class-C landings in 10 miles visibility. It was all I could do to navigate in that environment.

My plans for the near future - IR ticket and get the crosswinds tackled. But still bottom line - I don't get to fly as much as I'd like for non-aviation reasons, so I want my flying to be fun.
 
when I take newbies on plane rides, I try to fly on days with ideal conditions. Is that a problem too?
 
When I'm getting paid to fly someone else's plane, I fly in all sorts of weather (windy, rainy, icy, etc.) but only because that's my job.

When I'm flying my own airplane, I am an admitted and unapologetic fair weather pilot. I guess that means I suck. So what??
 
Anymouse said:
When I'm getting paid to fly someone else's plane, I fly in all sorts of weather (windy, rainy, icy, etc.) but only because that's my job.

When I'm flying my own airplane, I am an admitted and unapologetic fair weather pilot. I guess that means I suck. So what??
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Dis. :yes:
 
OK, got it. The skies are hereby reserved for only those people who have somewhere to go and someone to meet. People flying for recreation, to have a good time on a nice spring day, to polish their basic flying skills, and $200 hamburgers must self-ground until moderate IMC conditions or unfavorable winds come up.
 
I see what you're saying, but it's like complaining about the beaches being more crowded on sunny warm days than cold wintery days. Some situation are more conducive to an activity. A calm severe clear VFR day almost begs for you to get in your plane.
 
Alexb2000 said:
We all know from reading these boards that every pilot here is an absolute bad ass, so this is just a statement about recreational pilots in general.

In Texas I am based at a very busy GA airport, KADS. There are several schools on the field and many recreational pilots. I've noticed a trend that really bothers me, that is people only fly recreationally on calm, pleasant, beautiful, absolutely perfect mornings.

Such a Saturday morning and you'll be 10 back for departure.

BUT:

Same day except the wind is 20-25 nearly right down the runway... nobody

Same day with a 15 knot crosswind.... nobody

Same day with clouds and rain (no convection).... nobody

Night: students doing the minimum requirements or.... nobody

Almost all the traffic on the less than ideal days are professionals who have to fly in any flyable conditions.

If I am honest with myself I could easily fall into the same trap. The only difference for me is that I fly from place to place on a schedule and primarily for transportation. That adds just enough pressure that I find myself in many conditions that given the choice I would be tempted do something else with my day.

Somehow making pilots fly regularly in less than ideal conditions would be the easiest way to improve safety IMO.

What say you?
Click to expand...

I'd rather fly for fun and work a job than make flying into a career and learn to hate it. (some people have) People operate within their personal ability and risk envelope, which is the only thing that makes flying inherently safe. I'd like to see more people get IR rated b/c it makes you a better pilot for instance, but some people aren't cut out for it, they know it, and they stay off your final approach course at 90kts while you make another round in a holding pattern so, I guess it goes both ways.:dunno:
 
I've had my ass kicked by crap weather enough to know that I'm not going to fly to the lake for breakfast on any Saturday mornings like two days ago.

You're welcome to all of those days you want, I won't be in the way.
 
Before this gets too far afield.

Pro-pilots on their days off, don't count either, currency is obviously not an issue.

This is about the typical private pilot, years out from training, doing the absolute minimum for currency on perfect days and sims for IFR currency.

Here is an example of an accident that still bothers me:

http://www.ntsb.gov/aviationquery/brief2.aspx?ev_id=20111024X42713&ntsbno=CEN12FA037&akey=1

We could go on with a million examples, but the reality is that after a rating it is up to us as individuals to keep a level of proficiency that doesn't kill the unsuspecting passengers.

I just don't know how you do that on benign Saturday mornings and NO I don't think pilots flying around that can't perform the PTS of their rating does aviation any favors.
 
So a pilot launching into IMC with insufficient fuel can be "fixed" by flying a 15kt crosswind landings? I don't get it.
 
Meanee said:
So a pilot launching into IMC with insufficient fuel can be "fixed" by flying a 15kt crosswind landings? I don't get it.
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You're looking at two unrelated causes for crashes. The person who fails to have sufficient fuel won't be fixed by landing practice. That is, of course, the highest cause of crashes. What's so hard about fuel?

But loss of control/failure to control are a big deal. I was just reading about a Cessna 340 that crashed and killed the pilot on a 1 mile final. Beautiful day, 9G15. Guy just failed at maintaining airspeed. Very sad, but also a stupid reason to crash.
 
Lots of cheap airplanes have unpleasantly annoying limitations in regards to cross-winds. The 15 that OP mentioned may gust. I was once stuck in the air when winds picked up unexpectedly. I was up with a CFI working on my tailwheel endorsement and even he could not do it. We circled around until fuel situation became urgent, then ended landing elsewhere and had a friend come pick us up in a car.
 
Demonstrated crosswind component and actual capability of the plane are different. I've landed 172s and PA28s in 25+ direct no problem, and the 310 in direct 20G35, at night, short field. Plus, there are always other airports.

Now, I don't have an issue with personal mins or saying "I'm not flying because I don't want to." But I hear from a lot of pilots who get caught when light and variable winds turn into 15 kts unexpectedly. One would be wise to be capable of landing in such conditions in case one's planning proves to put one in such a situation inadvertently.
 
Meanee said:
So a pilot launching into IMC with insufficient fuel can be "fixed" by flying a 15kt crosswind landings? I don't get it.
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Is that really why someone died, or perhaps:

IFR "current" and rated pilot with a Garmin Perspective that can't find the runway with 1,400' ceilings, 3 miles vis, and calm winds.

Or pull the chute at altitude

Or land any of the many airports all with approaches they flew over coming back to KADS

Lack of fuel may have forced the aircraft down, but the real issue is currency, proficiency, and a complete lack of ADM IMO.
 
ClimbnSink said:
Maybe they are comfortable in nasty conditions but would rather fly for fun in the sun. Do you know these guys individually? Probably pro pilots flying for fun on their day off, if you fly in the slag for work, why would you do that on weekends for fun?
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Bingo. One should never presume that pilots who like to go out on fair weather days are only fair weather pilots.

Also, in my opinion the title and tone of the original post does absolutely nothing to help advance the cause of recreational aviation. Imagine a new pilot coming here for advice or just to 'hang' and seeing "Why recreational Pilots suck" plastered there at the top of the page. Tounge in cheek or not (I doubt it actually was, just covering my bases), people can and will take it as demeaning and offensive.
 
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Alexb2000 said:
Before this gets too far afield.

Pro-pilots on their days off, don't count either, currency is obviously not an issue.

This is about the typical private pilot, years out from training, doing the absolute minimum for currency on perfect days and sims for IFR currency.

Here is an example of an accident that still bothers me:

http://www.ntsb.gov/aviationquery/brief2.aspx?ev_id=20111024X42713&ntsbno=CEN12FA037&akey=1
Click to expand...

There's no doubt that this was an example of an instrument-rated pilot lacking proficiency, but I don't see what it has to do with the OP's complaint, which was, apparently, that all those pilots who only fly on nice days are a burden on those who fly on less-nice days as well as nice ones.


We could go on with a million examples, but the reality is that after a rating it is up to us as individuals to keep a level of proficiency that doesn't kill the unsuspecting passengers.

I just don't know how you do that on benign Saturday mornings and NO I don't think pilots flying around that can't perform the PTS of their rating does aviation any favors.
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The bottom line, to me, is that you be prepared for the flight you are planning. If you haven't flown out of sight of the airport since your PPASEL check ride,and only on sunny, calm, mild days, that's fine as long as you're not planning to fly out of sight of the airport, or fly when it's very hot, windy,dark, or the vis is poor and the ceiling low.
A lot of "sunny Sunday driver" pilots never do any other kind of flying, and don't intend to. I have no problem with that, even if they're carrying pax.
Those pilots, we hope, can at least check the weather/NOTAMs/airport info, make sure they have enough fuel and the airplane is airworthy, use some sort of checklist for normal procedures, and they should also know their emergency procedures. Flying locally only in the most benign conditions does not necessarily diminish proficiency in those things.
 
seattlepilot said:
Bingo. One should never presume that pilots who like to go out on fair weather days are only fair weather pilots.
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+1

Maybe a letter to the cheif counsel is in order? After all, the regs clearly arent restrictive enough:dunno::dunno:
 
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