Why is the pattern at some airports < 1000'?

cowman

cowman

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Always wondered this, see it from time to time.

Example KPPQ
Field elevation 710', pattern altitude 1510'.

I always thought 1,000' was standard but I see this fairly often, wondering why.
 
Schaumburg 06C has an 800 foot TPA to keep planes a decent amount lower that the overlying Class B floor.

Even then, in the pattern the heavies in line for Ohare are still close.
 
dans2992 said:
Schaumburg 06C has an 800 foot TPA to keep planes a decent amount lower that the overlying Class B floor.

Even then, in the pattern the heavies in line for Ohare are still close.
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Makes sense but the airport in my example is nowhere near a class B.

It is however under a MOA that "excludes airspace 1500AGL and below".
 
cowman said:
Always wondered this, see it from time to time.

Example KPPQ
Field elevation 710', pattern altitude 1510'.

I always thought 1,000' was standard but I see this fairly often, wondering why.
Click to expand...

I can find no mention of this in the A/FD. Thus it's 1,000'. Where do you see 800'? Somewhere on AOPA? Foreflight? Most of their stuff is wrong around here too. We just talked about this here:

http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showthread.php?t=81278

Edit: oops, never mind, I see it in the A/FD. It's listed up top, many times pattern altitude is listed under "airport remarks" and I missed this one.
 
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800 was the standard long ago, when GA airplanes, primarily trainers with 65/ 85 hp engines. 600 was not uncommon. Better altitudes for touch & go patterns.
That is where the ground reference altitudes of 600' to 1000' comes from.
 
nosehair said:
800 was the standard long ago, when GA airplanes, primarily trainers with 65/ 85 hp engines. 600 was not uncommon. Better altitudes for touch & go patterns.

That is where the ground reference altitudes of 600' to 1000' comes from.
Click to expand...

FWIW, I've seen many military training manuals from the '40s with 5-600' as pattern altitude.
 
Always thought the standard pattern altitude was anywhere between 800 and 1000 ft.
 
Fearless Tower said:
FWIW, I've seen many military training manuals from the '40s with 5-600' as pattern altitude.
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I think it's a better pattern altitude and keeps things nice and tight, but faster planes would be doing some pretty significant bank turns basically consisting of a steep 180° from just past abeam the numbers; which is fine by me really.
 
800 was "standard" for single engine, 1200 for multi or "heavy".
I was surprised when I found airports with 1000 ft patterns and 1500 for heavy.

Local airport is 800.
 
My home field's pattern altitude changed about 10 years ago from 1600' (850 AGL) to 1800' (1050 AGL). I prefer the lower pattern, but 200' isn't a big deal in either case.
 
BillTIZ said:
800 was "standard" for single engine, 1200 for multi or "heavy".
I was surprised when I found airports with 1000 ft patterns and 1500 for heavy.

Local airport is 800.
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When I learned in the early 90s "standard" was taught as 1000' & 1500' turbine/heavy and was operated so all over SoCal.
 
We've got two TPA's at PAO, 807msl on the east and 1007msl on the west over the houses.
 
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Home airport I trained at was 800 AGL. Seemed just fine to me. A lot of the airports around me didn't even have traffic patterns published.
 
Aeric said:
We've got two TPA's at PAO, 807agl on the east and 1007agl on the west over the houses.
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And the reason for the bayside 800 AGL is the SJC class C shelf at 1500. The 12R VOR approach has a hold at 1800 overhead of the right base turn to 31.
 
When I learned to fly at Fullerton CA (KFUL) in the 1960s it was an 800' MSL (704' AGL) pattern. The 800' tall radio tower 2 miles northwest of the field made it a sporting proposition on smoggy days, since that was not far from where an overloaded C-150 in warm weather would make its turn from crosswind to downwind.

:eek:

At my present home field in Washington State we have a published 1000' AGL pattern, which is only 71 feet below the floor of Class C airspace of neighboring Portland International Airport.
 
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cowman said:
Always wondered this, see it from time to time.

Example KPPQ
Field elevation 710', pattern altitude 1510'.

I always thought 1,000' was standard but I see this fairly often, wondering why.
Click to expand...

The 'standard' pattern altitude has risen over the years. 1000' AGL seems the most common today, in the '70s it was 800' AGL. I have publications from the '40s and '50s that indicate 600' was the most common.
 
AIM 4-3-3. Traffic Patterns At most airports and military air bases, traffic pattern altitudes for propeller-driven aircraft generally extend from 600 feet to as high as 1,500 feet above the ground.​
 
nosehair said:
800 was the standard long ago, when GA airplanes, primarily trainers with 65/ 85 hp engines. 600 was not uncommon. Better altitudes for touch & go patterns.
That is where the ground reference altitudes of 600' to 1000' comes from.
Click to expand...


Local field uses 800agl. Put an American CFI and an American student in a 65hp Cub on a warm day, and it'll take an extra 20 minutes to get up the extra 200'... :lol:
 
ateamer said:
KHWD (Hayward, CA) has a 600 AGL pattern on one side to avoid traffic into Oakland.
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And I know a certain DPE that likes to pull the power on downwind at KHWD.
 
Pilawt said:
When I learned to fly at Fullerton CA (KFUL) in the 1960s it was an 800' MSL (704' AGL) pattern. The 800' tall radio tower 2 miles northwest of the field made it a sporting proposition on smoggy days, since that was not far from where an overloaded C-150 in warm weather would make its turn from crosswind to downwind.

Good ole KFI radio.... I know it all too well... Rotate, Look for the tower, avoid the tower!
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rolivi said:
Good ole KFI radio.... I know it all too well... Rotate, Look for the tower, avoid the tower!
Click to expand...
I grew up less than a mile from that tower - a 50,000 watt clear channel blowtorch (on a CONELRAD frequency - remember those?) that could be heard on Saturn with little more than a copper penny, a paperclip and a Dixie cup.

If we picked up the telephone in our house we could hear KFI (probably Chuck Cecil and his "Swingin' Years" program) faintly over the dialtone. My mother said she could hear it in the fillings of her teeth.
 
Henning said:
When I learned in the early 90s "standard" was taught as 1000' & 1500' turbine/heavy and was operated so all over SoCal.
Click to expand...

My training was in the mid 70s. Most airports in New England were 800ft patterns, raised for terrain.
 
Pilawt said:
I grew up less than a mile from that tower - a 50,000 watt clear channel blowtorch (on a CONELRAD frequency - remember those?) that could be heard on Saturn with little more than a copper penny, a paperclip and a Dixie cup.

If we picked up the telephone in our house we could hear KFI (probably Chuck Cecil and his "Swingin' Years" program) faintly over the dialtone. My mother said she could hear it in the fillings of her teeth.
Click to expand...

That RF is some funky stuff......:yikes::hairraise:
 
In the late 70's I was taught that at uncontrolled airports the pattern altitude should be 800 feet AGL unless otherwise published. Tower controlled airports are normally 1000 feet AGL I still teach this to my students.
 
I think we may have migrated to 1000' TPAs because of how math skills have degraded. It's a lot easier to add 1000 to field elevation than 800'.
 
Traffic pattern at Jackson Hole Wy is 1000 AGL.




JAC Airport General Airport Information

​


[SIZE=-1]Control tower: [/SIZE]​
[SIZE=-1]Yes[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]Attendance (Months/Days/Hours): [/SIZE]​
[SIZE=-1]Months/Days/Hours
ALL/ALL/0600-2200[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]Lighting Schedule: [/SIZE]​
[SIZE=-1]SEE RMK[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]Segmented Circle Indicator: [/SIZE]​
[SIZE=-1]Yes[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]Beacon Color: [/SIZE]​
[SIZE=-1]White-Green (Lighted Land Airport)[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]Traffic Pattern Altitude: [/SIZE]​
[SIZE=-1]7451 feet (2271 m)[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]NOTAM-D Service: [/SIZE]​
[SIZE=-1]Yes[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]International Airport of Entry: [/SIZE]​
[SIZE=-1]No[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]Customs Landing Rights: [/SIZE]​
[SIZE=-1]No[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]Military Landing Rights: [/SIZE]​
[SIZE=-1]Yes[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]Civil/Military Joint Use: [/SIZE]​
[SIZE=-1]No[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]Aircraft Rescue and Firefighting: [/SIZE]​
[SIZE=-1]Class I
ARFF Index: B
Air Carrier Service: Scheduled
Certification Date: 05/1973[/SIZE]
 
winrose46 said:
In the late 70's I was taught that at uncontrolled airports the pattern altitude should be 800 feet AGL unless otherwise published. Tower controlled airports are normally 1000 feet AGL I still teach this to my students.
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Really? Have you considered buying a FAR/AIM from this millennium ;)

I ran across an interesting one today while planning a PnP flight to Lincoln, IL (KAAA). The field elevation is 594'. I see no mention of TPA in the A/FD so that makes it 1,594'...right?

But both FF and AOPA list it as 1,397'. 803' AGL? Really? I could understand if it was rounded to 1,400' like some are but 1,397? Can't help but to wonder where the heck that one came from.
 
timwinters said:
I ran across an interesting one today while planning a PnP flight to Lincoln, IL (KAAA). The field elevation is 594'. I see no mention of TPA in the A/FD so that makes it 1,594'...right?

But both FF and AOPA list it as 1,397'. 803' AGL? Really? I could understand if it was rounded to 1,400' like some are but 1,397? Can't help but to wonder where the heck that one came from.
Click to expand...

The A/FD shows field elevation to be 594' but the IAPs all show 597'.
 
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