Why is the missed like this?

[spiderweb]

http://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/0503/00627I13.PDF

I see a lot of missed instructions like this. Is there a reason, TERPS or otherwise, why one wouldn't just intercept the localizer outbound on the frontcourse to get to the hold? It just seems like a simpler idea.

 

[bbchien]

Ugh. The approach is closed for the next guy no matter how you get to the hold. I suppose it may be that the Localizer for whatever reason doesn't give useable information well above the glidepath...whereas the VOR does.

Dunno. Let's ask JR.

 

[Mark S]

Here's another approach for you.

http://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/0503/06810R6.PDF

The hold point is 30+ miles from the airport. No radar coverage and little radio coverage at the airport.

Try hard not to do a missed. It results in a lot of time before making another approach...

 

[spiderweb]

Here's another approach for you.

http://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/0503/06810R6.PDF

The hold point is 30+ miles from the airport. No radar coverage and little radio coverage at the airport.

Try hard not to do a missed. It results in a lot of time before making another approach...

I think if I went missed there, I would establish myself direct PUNGO, get up to 6,000, call ATC and request my alternate. What is the best nearest alternate with an ILS?

 

[Arnold]

http://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/0503/00627I13.PDF

I see a lot of missed instructions like this. Is there a reason, TERPS or otherwise, why one wouldn't just intercept the localizer outbound on the frontcourse to get to the hold? It just seems like a simpler idea.

As Dr. Bruce said there may be issues with the LOC BC.

More interesting to me though is how do you fly this. Do not look at the Jepp Chart.

The missed instruction is: "Climbing Right Turn to 3200' via RAV114 to OUTLT Int. and hold."

This is not a test:
All well and good but, right turn to what heading? Where would you expect to intercept the RAV114? How should your OBS be set?

Extra Credit:
Another question. The DH is 200' which is common for a CAT 1 ILS, why is the vis requirement 3/4 and not 1/2?

 

[EdFred]

All well and good but, right turn to what heading? Where would you expect to intercept the RAV114? How should your OBS be set?

I'd take a heading of 339 to intercept the 114 radial

Extra Credit:
Another question. The DH is 200' which is common for a CAT 1 ILS, why is the vis requirement 3/4 and not 1/2?

I'd say it has something to do with that 491' foot obstacle near the field.

 

[Arnold]

Hi Ed, how is the trip planning progressing? Your plane looks very nice.

For the moment I won't post my thoughts on the what the right answers are, and they are just that - my thoughts, but I do want to ask you some follow ups if you don't mind.

"I'd take a heading of 339 to intercept the 114 radial"

Why that heading? Why not 329 or 349? How are you setting your OBS?
It looks like you'll intercept east of OUTLT, is this your intent? Is this the intent of the missed instructions? I'm not saying you are wrong, I just want to know what you are thinking.

"I'd say it has something to do with that 491' foot obstacle near the field."

If this is the case wouldn't they just increase the DH? At DA of 544 you are already above the obstruction, and the obstruction appears to be on the field on the left side of the runway doesn't the right turn on the missed deal with this problem? I think you have a valid point in that it is an obstruction worth noting, but I don't think that is the reason for the increased vis mins.

I personally think this would be a more useful approach if the missed approach fix were SHAPP, becasue as Bruce noted the published missed basically shuts down the LOC until the aircraft is landing assured or established in the hold.

 

[Fast n' Furious]

WRT the ILS 13 at KRDG. The missed is like it is because the LOC doesn't support a backcourse. Also, Air Traffic had quite alot of input as to the missed there and that's what they wanted. AT is a key player in the design process and they usually get what they want. Also the approach is a 200 and 3/4 becuase of the lack of approach lighting at the arrival end of 13. No approach lights=3/4 mile viz requirement. Hope this helps.

 

[Arnold]

WRT the ILS 13 at KRDG. The missed is like it is because the LOC doesn't support a backcourse. Also, Air Traffic had quite alot of input as to the missed there and that's what they wanted. AT is a key player in the design process and they usually get what they want. Also the approach is a 200 and 3/4 becuase of the lack of approach lighting at the arrival end of 13. No approach lights=3/4 mile viz requirement. Hope this helps.

I was really trying a little of the Socratic method on this one. Oh well, no one was playing anyway.

While I've got you here, the missed states turn right and intercept the 114 radial. The intent seems to be to intercept north of the LOC, and Jepp charts it that way, here's the question, what are the TERPS criteria? How big an intercept angle is expected and what are acceptable ranges?

Thanks
Arnold

 

[EdFred]

The only reason i would pick the heading I did is it provides a 45 degree intercept angle, and that's just the way I was taught.

 

[Arnold]

The only reason i would pick the heading I did is it provides a 45 degree intercept angle, and that's just the way I was taught.

I would do the same, I am curious as to what our TERPS expert says about this.

Whenever I see above normal vis. minimums I look for inop/not present components. Generally 3/4 mile on an ILS means no approach light system. When you are shooting the approaches to mins, knowing what to expect to see can make the difference between landing or going missed.

Thanks for working this one through.

Arnold

 

[Fast n' Furious]

While I've got you here, the missed states turn right and intercept the 114 radial. The intent seems to be to intercept north of the LOC, and Jepp charts it that way, here's the question, what are the TERPS criteria? How big an intercept angle is expected and what are acceptable ranges?

I'm going to take a look at the proc pacakge tomorrow and see what was actually used to develop the hold at OUTLT. Seeing as your looking for the right answer, I'd probably best go find it. I'll get back to you. Promise.

Generally, a thirty to forty five degree intercept is desirable because it gives the pilot a definate transition to the on course radial or bearing. All of that gets adjusted for distance from/to the NAVAID as well as how the radial/bearing performs when it gets flight checked. Small angle intercepts are avoided when possible because of the development of multiple intercepts along the line. Big angles are avoided to reduce fly throughs. There is criteria but much of it can get tossed due to flyability and flight check values.
Thanks
Arnold[/QUOTE]

 

[spiderweb]

As Dr. Bruce said there may be issues with the LOC BC.

More interesting to me though is how do you fly this. Do not look at the Jepp Chart.

Too late.

The missed instruction is: "Climbing Right Turn to 3200' via RAV114 to OUTLT Int. and hold."

This is not a test:
All well and good but, right turn to what heading? Where would you expect to intercept the RAV114? How should your OBS be set?

All reasons why I'm wondering why I can't use the localizer. My answers would be: turn to a heading of 339; make sure you ident, and twist OBS to 294 with a TO indication. There's only one in the Zlin, so this really sucks.

Extra Credit:
Another question. The DH is 200' which is common for a CAT 1 ILS, why is the vis requirement 3/4 and not 1/2?

Lighting?

 

[spiderweb]

WRT the ILS 13 at KRDG. The missed is like it is because the LOC doesn't support a backcourse. Also, Air Traffic had quite alot of input as to the missed there and that's what they wanted. AT is a key player in the design process and they usually get what they want. Also the approach is a 200 and 3/4 becuase of the lack of approach lighting at the arrival end of 13. No approach lights=3/4 mile viz requirement. Hope this helps.

YAY! I was right about the lighting!

Thanks for your help with this approach.

 

[Fast n' Furious]

I would do the same, I am curious as to what our TERPS expert says about this.

Whenever I see above normal vis. minimums I look for inop/not present components. Generally 3/4 mile on an ILS means no approach light system. When you are shooting the approaches to mins, knowing what to expect to see can make the difference between landing or going missed.

Thanks for working this one through.

Arnold

TERPS expert? Hey is there someone else talking about TERPS here? Haha. Anyway, lotsa folks kinda meld flying and TERPS together into one giant steaming pile. TERPS has nothing to do with how you fly a procedure. It has everything to do with how a procedure is designed. Really, the FAR's, the AIM, and your good judgement and training/experience dictate how you actually fly the things. Flight check looks at flyability issues big time when a procedure is approved but the designer is building the thing to meet criteria. I'm gonna figure out this quote thing yet.

 

[Fast n' Furious]

YAY! I was right about the lighting!

Thanks for your help with this approach.

Not sure I've helped with anything. Yet. Once you get the rating you have to pass the books on BTW.

 

[spiderweb]

Not sure I've helped with anything. Yet. Once you get the rating you have to pass the books on BTW.

Thank you, and I will remember to do that. I enjoyed reading them, and have read every one of them.

 

[bbchien]

TERPS expert? Hey is there someone else talking about TERPS here? Haha. Anyway, lotsa folks kinda meld flying and TERPS together into one giant steaming pile. TERPS has nothing to do with how you fly a procedure. It has everything to do with how a procedure is designed. Really, the FAR's, the AIM, and your good judgement and training/experience dictate how you actually fly the things. Flight check looks at flyability issues big time when a procedure is approved but the designer is building the thing to meet criteria. I'm gonna figure out this quote thing yet.

JR people lump them together in the same way they link medical research and medicine. Two very different things. Like the way we link Single engine performance to Gross Weight in CAR 23. Yes the book says I can put 1500 lbs in the aircraft...but it's more complex than that....

With enough study, connections get made and correlative learning increases.

Yes, IAP flying is just a set of instructions to stay in protected airspace. But understanding why the instructions are made the way they are generally does help pilots understand how precious the margins are....

 

[Mark S]

I think if I went missed there, I would establish myself direct PUNGO, get up to 6,000, call ATC and request my alternate. What is the best nearest alternate with an ILS?

The nearest ILS is New Bern (EWN), 52 miles away from W95. About 4 hours by car. I think I'd just head home and give it up for another day.

 

[grattonja]

I'd take a heading of 339 to intercept the 114 radial

Reading Departure is pretty good about giving you vectors on a missed to get you tracking the radial that you need. Obviously, this goes out the window when the radar is out of service or when Reading Approach is closed at night. One thing I have noticed is that, lower down, Ravine can be a bit dicey at RDG. Maybe my equipment is just a bit fussy, and it is not every time I have shot an approach there, but it is not unusual to get some pretty good variance in the needles when trying to track RAV at 3K at Reading.

Jim G

 

[spiderweb]

The nearest ILS is New Bern (EWN), 52 miles away from W95. About 4 hours by car. I think I'd just head home and give it up for another day.

Wow. Any good localizer or VNAV approaches nearby?