Why I don't want to be stuck on 100LL

[Alexb2000]

Connect with Walt M at the Rocking M. He regularly reviews large equipment auctions to find deals on equipment he might want/need for his airport.

Here is an example of what I'm considering:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1000-gallon...her_Vehicle_Parts&hash=item339a68df5b&vxp=mtr

Put two 7K brakes axles under it, a folding tongue to compact the footprint, and there you go.

So $4500, $1500 to get it to Dallas, $2000 in axles, tires, and mods, TIME, and I'm there for about $8K. $8K if I save even $2 would take 4,000 gallons to recover. So a year or slightly more for the direct expense. So the question is still how long we will see large price deltas?

 

[Jimmy cooper]

For the gallery, Alex is based at KADS, which is long known for fuel prices way above average.

Within a 20 minute flight, there are 100LL prices under $4.00 (seeing some n AirNav for $3.69/gal)

KSWI (Sherman, TX) is showing a report of $3.35/gal.

----------------------------------------

$1.83 for unleaded was spotted on my way into work today.

The unwashed masses are always greatful when a few crumbs are thrown their way.

 

[Kiddo's Driver]

I get my controlled field practice in every time I go fill up now. I found out that fuel is 50-80 cents a gallon cheaper at Wichita's Mid Continent airport (ICT) than where I used to buy.

$4.36 for self serve at Yingling at ICT.

Regular E0 is probably around $2.30
Premium E0 is around $2.50

A O-320-D2A like what is in my plane will run fine on it, but there is almost zero chance of anyone developing an STC for my airframe.

For other reference:
E10 is $2.02 a gallon
Diesel is $2.74

 

[Henning]

Here is an example of what I'm considering:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1000-gallon...her_Vehicle_Parts&hash=item339a68df5b&vxp=mtr

Put two 7K brakes axles under it, a folding tongue to compact the footprint, and there you go.

So $4500, $1500 to get it to Dallas, $2000 in axles, tires, and mods, TIME, and I'm there for about $8K. $8K if I save even $2 would take 4,000 gallons to recover. So a year or slightly more for the direct expense. So the question is still how long we will see large price deltas?

See, that's a lot of money, look around and you can get an older road worthy tank truck for 1/3-1/2 that.

 

[AggieMike88]

Here is an example of what I'm considering:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1000-gallon...her_Vehicle_Parts&hash=item339a68df5b&vxp=mtr

Put two 7K brakes axles under it, a folding tongue to compact the footprint, and there you go.

So $4500, $1500 to get it to Dallas, $2000 in axles, tires, and mods, TIME, and I'm there for about $8K. $8K if I save even $2 would take 4,000 gallons to recover. So a year or slightly more for the direct expense. So the question is still how long we will see large price deltas?

I can save you a bit...

First, you can find folks on Uship.com that will do the transpo for less than that. You likely can find someone willing to do the run for about $1.00/mile since this can be combined with another item for their trip between KY and KADS.

Next, I regularly have rear truck frame sections that I just scrap. That plus the axle and springs it originally came with, and you could have your rolling skeleton for less than half your parts budget.

 

[Bob Noel]

They tried to make ethanol mandatory here, but we are that stupid.

ummmm...

you are?



(sorry, couldn't resist)

 

[JoseCuervo]

Slap a tarrif on imported oil like we use to. Dumping goods and products into a foreign market to lower prices harms domestic production. It is the oldest trick in the book. Flood your competition with cheap goods until the manufacturing capabilities are gone.

Or build a pipeline for your competitor to ship his oil to your ports to export to your customers, harming your markets.


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[JoseCuervo]

Mogas was one of the selling points for me. Too many unknowns with 100ll. Also nice to save a little cash where you can...

Saving $2.50 a gallon is more than a little cash. Makes GA start to be a bargain vs airlines.


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[Henning]

Or build a pipeline for your competitor to ship his oil to your ports to export to your customers, harming your markets.


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There is no concern for supply markets, only consumption markets. There is no concern for our economy except draining it.

 

[txflyer]

Weird.

I googled 'fuel buddy tank' and a picture I posted of my truck a couple of years ago popped up.

You don't need a trailer, you can get into one of these that holds 110 gallons with an electric pump all for about a grand. Trailers are a pain in the ass. You have to register them, maintain them, and work on the lights every fvcking time you want to roll.

 

[JoseCuervo]

There is no concern for supply markets, only consumption markets. There is no concern for our economy except draining it.

Not sure what that means.

North Dakota and Texas will hurt.

Many consumers will have more money in their pockets, good for the economy.


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[txflyer]

Everybody can watch TX go into recession if these oil prices stay down.

Word.

 

[Henning]

Not sure what that means.

North Dakota and Texas will hurt.

Many consumers will have more money in their pockets, good for the economy.


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Where is the money in their pockets going to come from as unemployment escalates? My first stint in the oil field was in 93, and I worked the industry trough three boom and bust cycles, and it is the most poorly managed industry I have ever seen. These are long term needs handled on a quarterly profit basis. We drill when price is high and it's most expensive to drill because everyone is competing for limited equipment and skill resources, and then shut down and lay everyone off as the price drops, stack up all the rigs and cap the wells, and buy foreign oil so long as it is cheap, and completely ignore further resource development while drilling would be cheap. The other advantage is that when the foreign prices go up again, we have resources ready to come on line to stabilize the prices with a lower per barrel production cost because the well development only cost 15% of what it cost to develop in a boom time.

But that creates stability and stability sinks financial markets. We really need to get these people out f control of our world, they are destroying our destiny.

 

[JoseCuervo]

Where is the money in their pockets going to come from as unemployment escalates? My first stint in the oil field was in 93, and I worked the industry trough three boom and bust cycles, and it is the most poorly managed industry I have ever seen. These are long term needs handled on a quarterly profit basis. We drill when price is high and it's most expensive to drill because everyone is competing for limited equipment and skill resources, and then shut down and lay everyone off as the price drops, stack up all the rigs and cap the wells, and buy foreign oil so long as it is cheap, and completely ignore further resource development while drilling would be cheap. The other advantage is that when the foreign prices go up again, we have resources ready to come on line to stabilize the prices with a lower per barrel production cost because the well development only cost 15% of what it cost to develop in a boom time.



But that creates stability and stability sinks financial markets. We really need to get these people out f control of our world, they are destroying our destiny.

Unemployment is lower now than anytime in the last 6 years, likely 8.

Gas is under $2 some places.

I can justify hiring more guys, just hard to find them when everyone already has a job.

Not sure your point, but low gas prices helps 48 states.


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[JoseCuervo]

Everybody can watch TX go into recession if these oil prices stay down.



Word.

I thought Rick Perry and Greg Abbott were masters at creating jobs and avoiding recessions. No worries for Texas.


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[denverpilot]

I guess I'm burned out and over the disparity in fuel prices ...



$1.94 for 87 unleaded gas in the car yesterday,

$3.34 for #2 diesel in the truck

$4.69 for 100LL at KLMO



A couple of months ago they were ALL much higher.

Diesel is below $3 in Parker now. We go through it quicker down here. Bunch of duallies for the horse trailer crowd.

I've noticed it's still much higher in the city. Tanks haven't turned over yet.

 

[Henning]

Unemployment is lower now than anytime in the last 6 years, likely 8.

Gas is under $2 some places.

I can justify hiring more guys, just hard to find them when everyone already has a job.

Not sure your point, but low gas prices helps 48 states.

Not for long. A lot of the reason for that low unemployment number is the oilfield boom that been happening during this high crude price cycle. When the price of crude drops, typically 85% of those people go to the house and are no longer employed. Then inevitably the price goes up again and we have a 'shortage' because all the drilling has been shut down for 5-8 years and all of a sudden a $25,000 a day drilling rig is $250,000 or $500,000 a day depending on what speculators think crude will be worth next quarter or even next week.

Stable energy supply and long range planning helps everyone.

 

[MBDiagMan]

I am actually thinking about getting a 1000 gallon refueling trailer and just driving up to Sherman to load up. If I save $3.00 after expenses that is still $3000 or about $12K a year. Hummmm.

Before you invest all that money in a trailer, I would talk to John Hooker in the hangar just south of the fuel pump. I don't think they will take kindly to someone driving up to the pump and sucking out 1,000 gallons. It is a municipal airport and they provide the rock bottom fuel price in an effort to keep air traffic up. Providing fuel at no markup with nothing in return isn't going to set well with the city council.

For all I know they might be good with it, but it would be a lot of money invested for naught if you couldn't buy the fuel that way or caused their fuel price to go up.

Thinking about someone driving up and buying mass quantities of local cut rate fuel brings to mind the soda machine where I worked while in high school. I worked part time in an auto supply store while in high school ca. 1967. The owner had a nickel vending machine while the standard price everywhere else was a dime. The owner lost money on every bottle and even more when the empty bottle wasn't returned. He was fine with it, because it was a courtesy for his customers and employees.

The ladies at the beauty shop next door found out about the cheap price and started stepping in and buying sodas, thinking they had found a bargain. Then they started telling their customers to come over and buy them. We started politely telling them that we lost money on them as a courtesy for OUR customers, but the message didn't take.

We resorted to unplugging the machine and telling them that it was broken, but they checked every day to see if it was fixed. After they gave up, we plugged it back in, but in a few days they found out it was working and were afraid it would break again, so they brought their cases of empty bottles and would empty the machine. That was the last straw. The owner went to a dime machine.

Wherever there is a cut rate price for something, there is a business reason for the price. If the model that is used for justifying the price is disrupted, it might do away with the price. I would investigate before making the investment in a trailer.

 

[Henning]

I've never seen someone not want to sell all the fuel they can if they are making anything on it, you can always call in another tanker, especially now that prices are falling.

Even better though is you buy one of these:
http://www.truckpaper.com/list/list...0&LiftGate=All&Cond=All&SO=2&btnSearch=Search

Now you can contract with the same company that provides that cheap fuel to the FBO to either come fill you for bulk rate as well, or get them to issue you paperwork (or get your own account) at the local rack.

 

[JHW]

I know that high compression engines like the O-470U in my 182 can't get a mogas stc because mogas does not have the detonation rating needed for high compression engines but does anyone know if any work has been done on lowering the the service ceiling for a plane to allow it? It's my understanding that the problem is only at altitude. My service ceiling is 16,500 and I've never had it above 11K and that was just once to see what it was like. I'd be happy to restrict my usage to under 10K if it meant I could run MOGAS.

You have it backwards. High power is your issue. If you want to play with mogas put it in one tank and switch to it after reducing power in cruise flight.

 

[Stewartb]

I'm a 100LL fan and have had a fuel tank in my pickups to dispense my own a gas for 25 years. For guys thinking about tanks and trailers make yourselves familiar with fuel regulations. Under 120 gallons exempts you from DOT requirements, Hazmat regulations, and a CDL requirement. Carry over 120 gallons and you may be asking for trouble. Like most regulatory issues enforcement is probably a local thing. My local bulk plant refused to fill my old 135 gallon tank unless I was had the required paperwork and placards. Liability issues on their part. I changed to a 100 gallon tank and have had no problems.

 

[Geico266]

Originally Posted by jtheune
I know that high compression engines like the O-470U in my 182 can't get a mogas stc because mogas does not have the detonation rating needed for high compression engines but does anyone know if any work has been done on lowering the the service ceiling for a plane to allow it? It's my understanding that the problem is only at altitude. My service ceiling is 16,500 and I've never had it above 11K and that was just once to see what it was like. I'd be happy to restrict my usage to under 10K if it meant I could run MOGAS.


The stock compression ratio of the O-470 is 7 to 1. Anything below 9 to 1 can run preimium 91 Octane mogas. You could easily run 87 Octane mogas in your engine with no issues at all. 100ll fuel is WAY over kill for the compression ratio of your engine.

The STC for a 182 is available at Peterson.

 

[Dav8or]

Everybody can watch TX go into recession if these oil prices stay down.

Word.

That is exactly what the Saudis aim to do. The boom in North Dakota will come to bust. The low gas prices we're all excited about is a gift from our good friends in the Middle East. They are reminding us who it is that really controls the oil market.

We really should be looking beyond crude oil to power our vehicles. Otherwise we will be forever under the thumb of foreign countries. Unfortunately, they know that all Americans care about is low, low prices. The Chinese have shown the world that.

 

[Alexb2000]

Before you invest all that money in a trailer, I would talk to John Hooker in the hangar just south of the fuel pump. I don't think they will take kindly to someone driving up to the pump and sucking out 1,000 gallons. It is a municipal airport and they provide the rock bottom fuel price in an effort to keep air traffic up. Providing fuel at no markup with nothing in return isn't going to set well with the city council.

For all I know they might be good with it, but it would be a lot of money invested for naught if you couldn't buy the fuel that way or caused their fuel price to go up.

Thinking about someone driving up and buying mass quantities of local cut rate fuel brings to mind the soda machine where I worked while in high school. I worked part time in an auto supply store while in high school ca. 1967. The owner had a nickel vending machine while the standard price everywhere else was a dime. The owner lost money on every bottle and even more when the empty bottle wasn't returned. He was fine with it, because it was a courtesy for his customers and employees.

The ladies at the beauty shop next door found out about the cheap price and started stepping in and buying sodas, thinking they had found a bargain. Then they started telling their customers to come over and buy them. We started politely telling them that we lost money on them as a courtesy for OUR customers, but the message didn't take.

We resorted to unplugging the machine and telling them that it was broken, but they checked every day to see if it was fixed. After they gave up, we plugged it back in, but in a few days they found out it was working and were afraid it would break again, so they brought their cases of empty bottles and would empty the machine. That was the last straw. The owner went to a dime machine.

Wherever there is a cut rate price for something, there is a business reason for the price. If the model that is used for justifying the price is disrupted, it might do away with the price. I would investigate before making the investment in a trailer.

Point taken. I would of course check with them to see if it is an issue before I committed. Of course if I could get a larger group together I could just order from the distributor. I've thought about that as well, accounting for use, collecting money, providing and maintaining the equipment, etc sounds like a pain especially when dealing with pilots.

 

[Henning]

That is exactly what the Saudis aim to do. The boom in North Dakota will come to bust. The low gas prices we're all excited about is a gift from our good friends in the Middle East. They are reminding us who it is that really controls the oil market.

We really should be looking beyond crude oil to power our vehicles. Otherwise we will be forever under the thumb of foreign countries. Unfortunately, they know that all Americans care about is low, low prices. The Chinese have shown the world that.

Actually the Saudis are trying to knock out the Russians, knocking out our production is just cream.

 

[Henning]

Point taken. I would of course check with them to see if it is an issue before I committed. Of course if I could get a larger group together I could just order from the distributor. I've thought about that as well, accounting for use, collecting money, providing and maintaining the equipment, etc sounds like a pain especially when dealing with pilots.

We had a 5 way split. We all chipped in on the first fill evenly and logged our fills (that's why having a real fuel truck is nice, fully metered...) when we refilled everybody just paid to replace the fuel they used. We had that going for a year and a half with no issues between us or of 'lost fuel'.

 

[Alexb2000]

We had a 5 way split. We all chipped in on the first fill evenly and logged our fills (that's why having a real fuel truck is nice, fully metered...) when we refilled everybody just paid to replace the fuel they used. We had that going for a year and a half with no issues between us or of 'lost fuel'.

Who stores the fuel truck? Who pays to maintain it, fuel it, insure it? Who collects and hold the money, places a bulk fuel order, or drives it to fill up, etc.?

We have a shared dumpster where I own a hangar, what a PITA and much simpler than a fuel truck. Some people are great about paying, others you have to hunt down. Some people are respectful of others, some will just throw unbroken down boxes in there the first day after they empty it and let everyone else climb in and stomp them down to make some room. Someone will do a remodel or major clean out, selfishly fill the dumpster to the rim for a couple of months straight, then say they don't want to be part of the group anymore. Of course you figure out who it is by watching the dumpster and who is doing what, then confronting them, another PITA. Going forward I have decided to just bite the bullet and have one of my own.

 

[Dav8or]

I'm a 100LL fan and have had a fuel tank in my pickups to dispense my own a gas for 25 years. For guys thinking about tanks and trailers make yourselves familiar with fuel regulations. Under 120 gallons exempts you from DOT requirements, Hazmat regulations, and a CDL requirement. Carry over 120 gallons and you may be asking for trouble. Like most regulatory issues enforcement is probably a local thing. My local bulk plant refused to fill my old 135 gallon tank unless I was had the required paperwork and placards. Liability issues on their part. I changed to a 100 gallon tank and have had no problems.

That and check with your airport about their requirements. The airport I'm at is owned by the county and would never allow me to bring a home made trailer rig and park it there. They might allow a professionally built and certified fuel truck, but I'm sure there would be significant requirements. Obviously, if you have your own airport, there is no problem. The requirements from area to area will be vastly different, so many places will be no big deal. Just something to check on before you go and buy a rig.

 

[Henning]

Who stores the fuel truck? Who pays to maintain it, fuel it, insure it? Who collects and hold the money, places a bulk fuel order, or drives it to fill up, etc.?

We have a shared dumpster where I own a hangar, what a PITA and much simpler than a fuel truck. Some people are great about paying, others you have to hunt down. Some people are respectful of others, some will just throw unbroken down boxes in there the first day after they empty it and let everyone else climb in and stomp them down to make some room. Someone will do a remodel or major clean out, selfishly fill the dumpster to the rim for a couple of months straight, then say they don't want to be part of the group anymore. Of course you figure out who it is by watching the dumpster and who is doing what, then confronting them, another PITA. Going forward I have decided to just bite the bullet and have one of my own.

I was working at a CRS/FBO and just parked it on our ramp at LGB. The rack was a only a few miles down the road, maintenance was basically nothing after a couple hundred bucks at the beginning to get it running right again. Any work it needed I just did, or whomever. It was an old International chassis with a Big Red straight 6 that may have burned 15 gallons of fuel a year (we just drove it to the rack and back and taxied to it like a fuel Island). There was no "holding of the money" as we prepaid the fuel then paid to replace it. Yes, when I left I walked away from a couple hundred gallons of fuel I had paid for, but so what? I had already saved 50+ times that. The billing on all of it was handled through one of the other partners who had the rack account through his dad's gas stations. We also could have had the fuel delivered to the truck for a few cents a gallon more. Normally it would be me who drove it to the rack since I worked there and had the clicker for the gate.

We were all saving so much fuel money nobody even thought about not paying their share. Besides, we shared airplanes as well.

 

[jtheune]

Originally Posted by jtheune
I know that high compression engines like the O-470U in my 182 can't get a mogas stc because mogas does not have the detonation rating needed for high compression engines but does anyone know if any work has been done on lowering the the service ceiling for a plane to allow it? It's my understanding that the problem is only at altitude. My service ceiling is 16,500 and I've never had it above 11K and that was just once to see what it was like. I'd be happy to restrict my usage to under 10K if it meant I could run MOGAS.


The stock compression ratio of the O-470 is 7 to 1. Anything below 9 to 1 can run preimium 91 Octane mogas. You could easily run 87 Octane mogas in your engine with no issues at all. 100ll fuel is WAY over kill for the compression ratio of your engine.

The STC for a 182 is available at Peterson.

As noted it's a 470U that has the 8.6:1 compression ratio and you cannot get a mogas STC for it.

 

[skynewbie]

I need to move to a state that has mogas. California alas does not.

 

[Henning]

I need to move to a state that has mogas. California alas does not.

You should be able to pick up alcohol free MoGas at any marina, I don't think they are allowed alcohol. If you get a tank and buy it from a fuel supplier it is available sans ethanol as well.

 

[txflyer]

There's an app for that.

Puregas.org

Or download the android or iphone app ...

https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.AutoLean.puregas

 

[bluerooster]

Interesting how the % of unemployment is so low. when there are so many folks out there without jobs, and looking for work.
But then when you stop to look at it, the numbers are derived from the number of people drawing unemployment benefits, which has in fact gone down. Not because everyone now has a job, but because their time has run out and are no longer able to draw the benefit.
back to the thread.

 

[Henning]

Interesting how the % of unemployment is so low. when there are so many folks out there without jobs, and looking for work.
But then when you stop to look at it, the numbers are derived from the number of people drawing unemployment benefits, which has in fact gone down. Not because everyone now has a job, but because their time has run out and are no longer able to draw the benefit.
back to the thread.

All our economic indicator numbers are not a reflection of reality.

 

[MBDiagMan]

All our economic indicator numbers are not a reflection of reality.

From what I can tell, none of them are. The method of deriving the results is changed from time to time to make someone in office appear to have effectiveness that they don't actually possess.

 

[docmirror]

One of the primary decisions on buying my plane was that it would run mogas. I've been burning it in various planes for many years, and for certain my plane runs better on mogas than 100LL. I also have less(no) lead fouling on the plugs, and don't worry about the lead poison as much.

Mogas does smell bad, and with old planes, and vented tanks it can stink in hot weather before engine start. I may have a very slow drool in my mech pump and tank selector. Nothing big enough to see, but even a very small amount of mogas in confined areas can smell bad. I put up with it mainly due to the much lower costs of fueling. I have a 45 gal tank in the back of my Focus hatchback and a transfer pump.

The serious down-side lately is that fewer and fewer locations are carrying mogas without Ethanol. I used to have it 3 miles from the airport, but now the closest is 42 miles. Luck for me, it's on the way to a location I visit often, so I combine trips.

 

[nrpetersen]

Those who support or belong to this website:

(http://www.enginehistory.orghttp:/)

can read the history of the 1940s development by Shell Oil (and others) of Triptane for high compression engines as a way to enhance fighter performance for the Battle of Britain. It will give you a flavor of how potentially expensive this abandoned approach was. It is likely the present fuel development and production will be of similar difficulty.

If we are to universally shoulder our training and small aircraft fleet with such a 100LL replacement, our industry will simply die because of fuel expense.

We have to figure out how to use a fuel that can be mainstreamed with automobile fuel. Forcing a 100LL replacement into small aircraft will kill the future of aviation.

Instead we should work on developing modifications to 100LL legacy engines so they can use MoGas. A logical way to be would be to install lower compression pistons at overhaul and reduce the allowable gross weight as needed to accommodate the slightly reduced power output. More sophisticated ignition systems may also be part of the solution.