Why do you think there is a DC no fly zone?

OtisAir

OtisAir

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OtisAir
Is it to keep us heavy wake turbulence producing ASELs/AMELs out, or to keep the appearance of a sterile environment up to the "bad guys", noise abaitment perhaps, Mayor Daily's connections extend that far..... what's your opinion?
 
It's to give them enough time to intercept us slow flyers and get us under control when we're being idiots. If there was no buffer then they'd just have to shoot us down when we got too close, just in case. So you see, it's actually there for our protection, not theirs...
 
so that they could feel good about fixing a problem that didnt exist.
 
PittsDriver is pretty much correct. It's all about the time it takes to react to and classify (and, if necessary, destroy) inbound air vehicles which aren't already known with reasonable assurance to be non-threats. They set the airspace current sizes and rules based on tests with various small aircraft including a BD-5J Microjet flying out of Ocean City MD simulating a cruise missile launched from offshore.
 
There is no "DC no fly zone". There is an ADIZ and an FRZ, both of which GA aircraft fly in routinely under a set of specific conditions.

They don't publish their defense plan, but based on the rules, my interpretation is that the ADIZ is to provide a buffer zone for identifying clueless wanderers, one that provides sufficient time for a relatively low-stress intercept and "shepherd" away. Aircraft can be intercepted and contact established before they get to the high value targets in the middle; they can be identified as "dumbass vs. malicious" by their response to the intercept.

The FRZ provides a brief response time to extremely suspicious aircraft. Aircraft that have departed from within the FRZ without following the proper procedures are highly suspicious, because there's a high awareness of the FRZ at the 3 GA airports within. Aircraft that have entered from the outside, through the ADIZ, following the procedures, but then entered the FRZ are highly suspicious because they demonstrated understanding of the procedures, and were in 2-way ATC contact, but would have necessarily deviated from their stated plan, and ignored ATC instructions..

So the system sorts out the hapless dumbasses from the highly suspicious, allowing for low-stress handling of the dumbasses, while still at least a brief response time to the suspicious.

So the final question is "what happens to the suspicious?" There isn't a lot of time between identification as suspicious (e.g. at the edge of the FRZ) and reaching the "center". Again, they don't say what their plan is. But we do know that anti-aircraft guns have been spotted around DC, though I question whether they'd be used just based on a runaway blip. Even if there isn't much time to respond, there may be a procedure in place for raising an alarm and spiriting some VIPs to shelter.

I'm guessing, though, that this isn't what you're asking, as your question seems to be "is it because they're stupid, or because they're evil?" I don't think either of those apply, but I do think their priorities are, not surprisingly, very different from ours.
-harry
 
mantakos said:
I'm guessing, though, that this isn't what you're asking, as your question seems to be "is it because they're stupid, or because they're evil?" I don't think either of those apply, but I do think their priorities are, not surprisingly, very different from ours.
-harry
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I think Harry's right; they're not stupid or evil. They just think that it's more important to keep them safe than anyone else.

Let's imagine for a minute that light GA aircraft could fly willy nilly anywhere we wanted to around DC without talking to anyone or them having any idea who we are - kinda like we can do just about anywhere else in the country. Is there any risk associated with that behavior? Sure there is. The key is that only in DC are there important people that they feel needs protecting from that kind of risk. Your kids elementary school out in the 'burbs, not so much.

So the real reason we have a SFRA and FRZ around DC is because the people that get to mandate such rules think that their necks are more precious than us normal people. This has to be the reason because otherwise, one of two things would be true: they'd feel the need to protect everyone one from this threat; or, there's really such a low risk as to be unnecessary to protect anyone and it's all just security theatrics.

So the real question then is, how do you feel about a government that feels it's more important to protect itself than those that are governed?
 
PittsDriver said:
ISo the real question then is, how do you feel about a government that feels it's more important to protect itself than those that are governed?
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Not exactly a new concept, as evidenced by the Greenbrier Resort, Raven Rock Mountain, etc.


Trapper John
 
PittsDriver said:
...

So the real question then is, how do you feel about a government that feels it's more important to protect itself than those that are governed?
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Without intending to send this into SZ, it's kind of an obvious answer.

It doesn't take much imagination to see that killing/incapacitating the Prez along with whatever other high-level folk happened to be in the area could have a critical impact, with the "could" becoming a "would" if it were part of a coordinated effort.

In other words, my real question is this: are you trying to make a serious point, or did I just get suckered into responding to a deliberately foolish post?
 
The whole thing is an idiotic mess. What caused 911? Jets. So what is allowed into DCA, minutes (if not seconds) to all that stuff they're SO worried about? Jets. What is restricted beyond all imagination? Us. Why? Where is the precedent for a GA aircraft used in a successful terrorist act? There isn't. Spending millions of our dollars daily to fix a problem that never existed and to cover a hypothetical means of attack that is both unlikely and easily prevented in other ways. Job security for security personnel. And by the way, can anyone explain why DC is so much more important than anywhere else? I can't.
 
PittsDriver said:
I think Harry's right; they're not stupid or evil. They just think that it's more important to keep them safe than anyone else.

Let's imagine for a minute that light GA aircraft could fly willy nilly anywhere we wanted to around DC without talking to anyone or them having any idea who we are - kinda like we can do just about anywhere else in the country. Is there any risk associated with that behavior? Sure there is. The key is that only in DC are there important people that they feel needs protecting from that kind of risk. Your kids elementary school out in the 'burbs, not so much.

So the real reason we have a SFRA and FRZ around DC is because the people that get to mandate such rules think that their necks are more precious than us normal people. This has to be the reason because otherwise, one of two things would be true: they'd feel the need to protect everyone one from this threat; or, there's really such a low risk as to be unnecessary to protect anyone and it's all just security theatrics.

So the real question then is, how do you feel about a government that feels it's more important to protect itself than those that are governed?
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I didn't know you could fly around willy-nilly in class B airspace without talking to anyone.

And, it's definitely the second one, that or they are morons - probably both.
 
steingar said:
The whole thing is an idiotic mess. What caused 911? Jets. So what is allowed into DCA, minutes (if not seconds) to all that stuff they're SO worried about? Jets. What is restricted beyond all imagination? Us. Why? Where is the precedent for a GA aircraft used in a successful terrorist act? There isn't. Spending millions of our dollars daily to fix a problem that never existed and to cover a hypothetical means of attack that is both unlikely and easily prevented in other ways. Job security for security personnel. And by the way, can anyone explain why DC is so much more important than anywhere else? I can't.
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Totally agree. I will only add that its to give a perception of the politicians "doing something" to a public that is largely clueless about aviation.
 
EdFred said:
I didn't know you could fly around willy-nilly in class B airspace without talking to anyone.

And, it's definitely the second one, that or they are morons - probably both.
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Not every metropolitan area is covered by controlled airspace. There's quite a bit I can fly over willy-nilly with just the restrictions over a congested area (and remaining the appropriate distance from an obstacle). Of course, it is less than surprising that those from Michigan might not fully comprehend such nuances.:D
 
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steingar said:
Not every metropolitan area is covered by controlled airspace. There's quite a bit I can fly over willy-nilly with just the restrictions over a congested area (and remaining the appropriate distance from an obstacle). Of course, it is less than surprising that those from Michigan might not fully comprehend such nuances.:D
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#1 Learn how to read.
#2 Learn how to comprehend
#3 We are talking DC, and all of DC is Bravo to the surface with the exception of a small northern corner.

It's no wonder OSU will accept anyone into their school, look who's "instructing."
 
EdFred said:
#1 Learn how to read.
#2 Learn how to comprehend
#3 We are talking DC, and all of DC is Bravo to the surface with the exception of a small northern corner.

It's no wonder OSU will accept anyone into their school, look who's "instructing."
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LOL, where's the stick today?


Trapper John
 
EdFred said:
#1 Learn how to read.
#2 Learn how to comprehend
#3 We are talking DC, and all of DC is Bravo to the surface with the exception of a small northern corner.

It's no wonder OSU will accept anyone into their school, look who's "instructing."
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Hey Ed, How did Michigan do this last weekend in football?:D
 
PittsDriver said:
I think Harry's right; they're not stupid or evil. They just think that it's more important to keep them safe than anyone else.

Let's imagine for a minute that light GA aircraft could fly willy nilly anywhere we wanted to around DC without talking to anyone or them having any idea who we are - kinda like we can do just about anywhere else in the country. Is there any risk associated with that behavior? Sure there is. The key is that only in DC are there important people that they feel needs protecting from that kind of risk. Your kids elementary school out in the 'burbs, not so much.

So the real reason we have a SFRA and FRZ around DC is because the people that get to mandate such rules think that their necks are more precious than us normal people. This has to be the reason because otherwise, one of two things would be true: they'd feel the need to protect everyone one from this threat; or, there's really such a low risk as to be unnecessary to protect anyone and it's all just security theatrics.

So the real question then is, how do you feel about a government that feels it's more important to protect itself than those that are governed?
Click to expand...

Please identify the risk associated with flying around DC that doesn't exist flying around anywhere else in the US,
 
Bob Noel said:
Please identify the risk associated with flying around DC that doesn't exist flying around anywhere else in the US,
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If you're asking about the risk to those on the ground, that's my point. There isn't any except that it's to a select class of people vs. the rest of us. My post was intended as sarcasm but I have to admit it was a convincing bit :) But I do say with all sincerity, most of Homeland Security smells like the Ben Franklin quote about giving up liberty for security - especially when it's curbing the liberties of many for the security of a select few.
 
tonycondon said:
so that they could feel good about fixing a problem that didnt exist.
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Exactly.

All this talk here about "security" completely misses the point. People in this country are completely obsessed with spending billions of dollars providing protection to a few people that other countries with similar economic power protect at a fraction of the cost. We're the laughing stock of the world when we show up with our own limousines for every meeting abroad.
 
Where is the precedent for a GA aircraft used in a successful terrorist act?
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Where was the precedent for using an airliner as a bomb to bring down a large office building? There wasn't one. The threat of GA aircraft can't be determined based on precedent, because we'd like to be able to protect ourselves against a "first time somebody did a good job trying that" attack, too.

There have been at least two GA aircraft that have been flown onto the White House grounds. So far, only the pilots have been hurt as a result.

The only tactical advantage that a light aircraft could provide over a truck would be the ability to get up and over barricades. A GA aircraft could carry a couple thousand pounds of explosives, or bio or chemical weapons, if they could be obtained. The 9/11 guys researched doing this, and were nosing around trying to buy a crop duster.

Of course, they didn't go this route, and there's some significance to that. What makes this attack implausible isn't that it couldn't be successful, it's more that there are likely to be other attacks that are better.
Spending millions of our dollars daily...
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I'm not sure what the expense is of maintaining an ADIZ and an FRZ, but I'm pretty sure that millions of dollars a day is an exaggeration.
... can anyone explain why DC is so much more important than anywhere else?
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We're diverting from rationality here. Personally, I'm in favor of our leaders assuming the same risks as the citizenry, I have some ethical "issues" with doing anything else. But from a practical perspective, I have to acknowledge that it's a problem when terrorists can take out a chunk of the Pentagon, or key players in the Executive Branch.
-harry
 
mantakos said:
I'm not sure what the expense is of maintaining an ADIZ and an FRZ, but I'm pretty sure that millions of dollars a day is an exaggeration.
-harry
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I'm not so sure about that. F16s on 5 minute alert, 24/7. Blackhawks or Coastie helos in the air 24/7 (I don't think they're scrambled, I believe they are airborne). Those mystery lear jets flying around? All the controller time at Potomac Tracon dealing with crap. Ground crews? Radar? Liason? I wouldn't be surprised that it gets to the million range.

Let's face it - it is a bogus, politically-driven (oh crap, let's do anything, anything to make it look like I'm doing something) solution to a problem that doesn't exist.

One Ryder truck parked out in front of the White House with a shaped charge? Maybe one on either end? Heck, a semi filled with C4 driven past the White House with even a nominal amount of shaping would do some real damage. As far as I'm concerned, a Phalanx and maybe an SM3 on top of the Capitol and White House would solve any problem that raises its head. No need for the FRZ, or the SFRA.
 
not intended to be a foolish post... my point being that the airspace has been violated a couple of times and the perimeter hasn't provided enough time to keep the "lost or clueless" pilot(s) out of possibly the most protected airspace in existence. I certainly don't want it to get larger, but I'm curious if it exists more of a display than of a brick wall.
 
flyersfan31 said:
As far as I'm concerned, a Phalanx and maybe an SM3 on top of the Capitol and White House would solve any problem that raises its head. No need for the FRZ, or the SFRA.
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Naw, Phalanx is passe now. Too much tungsten or DU down range. What a guy needs is about four RAM mounts. Supersize those puppies so there's eighteen or twenty in battery. Put'em on each corner of the White House and the "man" will be protected. And the first time Joe (or Jill) Pilot gets smoked for approaching the sacred (:rolleyes:) ground of a "VIP" then the rest of us will learn not to do that. There's a lot to be said for a practical approach to point defense...
 
OtisAir said:
not intended to be a foolish post... my point being that the airspace has been violated a couple of times and the perimeter hasn't provided enough time to keep the "lost or clueless" pilot(s) out of possibly the most protected airspace in existence. I certainly don't want it to get larger, but I'm curious if it exists more of a display than of a brick wall.
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No it hasn't kept out the clueless idiots that have violated it. But so far, none of them have been shot down either. As several of us have mentioned in earlier posts - these airspace constructs are there to protect us from the guys with happy trigger fingers that are ready to go the distance to protect the president, et. al. On the other hand, we'd be better off if they'd just relax a bit on the trigger but then again, no lunatic jihadist would be dancing in the streets if they got me.
 
Bob Noel said:
Please identify the risk associated with flying around DC that doesn't exist flying around anywhere else in the US,
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It's not the threat, it's the value of the target. The DC SFRA and FRZ are the brainchild of the agencies responsible for protecting the folks in the White House, the USNO, the Congress, and the Pentagon.

Even though I hate the restrictions, I have to concede that DC contains high-value targets that don't exist elsewhere.
 
mantakos said:
Where was the precedent for using an airliner as a bomb to bring down a large office building?
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Tom Clancy predicted it in his Jack Ryan series of novels.. Debt of Honor, I believe. Copyright 1994. Took out a joint session of Congress with a 747 on the front steps of the capitol building.

It was chilling watching the twin towers get hit, live on TV, with this book fresh in my mind.
 
TMetzinger said:
It's not the threat, it's the value of the target. The DC SFRA and FRZ are the brainchild of the agencies responsible for protecting the folks in the White House, the USNO, the Congress, and the Pentagon.

Even though I hate the restrictions, I have to concede that DC contains high-value targets that don't exist elsewhere.
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I believe this to be an inappropriate position. What on Earth makes them "high-value"?????

We elected them so we can darn well elect their replacements when they get themselves killed.
 
Clark1961 said:
I believe this to be an inappropriate position. What on Earth makes them "high-value"?????

We elected them so we can darn well elect their replacements when they get themselves killed.
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I think this is a naive response. Cutting off the head of the civilian and military government (you'll get all the generals and other "non-elected" types too) could be a very big deal.

We've had this thread from ICBMs for decades, and the only reason there is airspace restrictions now is because the threat is no longer a warhead moving at supersonic speeds, it's a small airplane loaded with NBC materiel travelling at 160 knots or less. And they CAN put restrictions in place against that threat without killing the economy or inconveniencing hundreds of thousands of people (the way making DC a "no drive" zone would.

Personally, I'd like it if our leadership showed some testicular fortitude and said "I'm moving key backups out of the area so we'll have survivability and then I'm putting us back to 9/10/2001, because we're the land of the free and the home of the brave." But that's not gonna happen.
 
Doggtyred said:
Tom Clancy predicted it in his Jack Ryan series of novels.. Debt of Honor, I believe. Copyright 1994. Took out a joint session of Congress with a 747 on the front steps of the capitol building.

It was chilling watching the twin towers get hit, live on TV, with this book fresh in my mind.
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You noticed the parallel, too?
 
TMetzinger said:
I think this is a naive response. Cutting off the head of the civilian and military government (you'll get all the generals and other "non-elected" types too) could be a very big deal.
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To put it plainly, no it most certainly isn't a "naive response." It is a response which recognizes that the strength and power of America doesn't lie in the White House but in the people. It is too bad that more folks don't understand that very fundamental point.

As for command and control, those lines need to be clarified but it wouldn't be an issue for the type of attack postulated by the threat of a GA aircraft.
 
Clark1961 said:
To put it plainly, no it most certainly isn't a "naive response." It is a response which recognizes that the strength and power of America doesn't lie in the White House but in the people. It is too bad that more folks don't understand that very fundamental point.

As for command and control, those lines need to be clarified but it wouldn't be an issue for the type of attack postulated by the threat of a GA aircraft.
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Let me be explicit. I agree with your ideals. I think that they are a fine example of how things should be, and show no real grasp of how things actually are.

So, when you get your elected officials to adopt and follow your ideals, let me know. I've been :mad2: with them for well over a decade on these types of issues. Hell, there were times when I was IN the gov't playing :mad2: with policy makers. Politics is the art of the possible, and what you're proposing does not seem possible, regardless of how desirable it may be.
 
TMetzinger said:
Even though I hate the restrictions, I have to concede that DC contains high-value targets that don't exist elsewhere.
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Agreed.
Doggtyred said:
Tom Clancy predicted it in his Jack Ryan series of novels..
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But, they were jets, not GA aircraft.
steingar said:
What caused 911? Jets. ...
What is restricted beyond all imagination? Us. Why?
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Because jets are how our masters get around. We can't mess with them.

I have worked in anti- and counter-terrorism for a dozen years (long before it became sexy and well funded).
The DC SFRA is (IMHO) a stupid overreaction, because the exact type of aircraft that is the highest threat is flying right down the Potomac Approach between the Mall and the Pentagon.

If the Congress had closed Reagan National and had to drive themselves to Dulles or BWI, then I might accept what they are doing.
But they essentially made Reagan their own personal airport, made sure that *they* could get in and out anytime they want, and expanded their military aircraft privileges so they're usually exempt from it all anyway.
*That's* what steams me.

What it comes down to is GA is the easy target. Congress won't let them close Reagan, they can't ban vehicle traffic, they can't do any of the other things that would logically follow is the types of measures they *think* are required were actually needed.

The difference between this generations and past generations is that during WW2 GA was put under very tight restrictions. 4 years later, they were lifted.
This society today doesn't understand the value of the liberties they don't even know they are losing.
 
Presidents have been assassinated. Life went on. If someone actually managed to do us a favor and take out Congress, we'd elect a new one. Civilization will not collapse without these bozos. They are no more important than the rest of us. I think they are a pack of yellow cowards, hiding from an imaginary threat behind a shield of military firepower paid for by us.
 
TMetzinger said:
Let me be explicit. I agree with your ideals. I think that they are a fine example of how things should be, and show no real grasp of how things actually are.

So, when you get your elected officials to adopt and follow your ideals, let me know. I've been :mad2: with them for well over a decade on these types of issues. Hell, there were times when I was IN the gov't playing :mad2: with policy makers. Politics is the art of the possible, and what you're proposing does not seem possible, regardless of how desirable it may be.
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First off, I don't control whether or not you're explicit so I suggest that you don't try that path. As for your suggestion that you know how things actually are, well, sorry son, but you aren't the decider of how things actually are. Your perspective is no better or worse than mine even though you clearly feel otherwise.

Furthermore, as long as it doesn't seem possible to folks such as yourself then it most certainly won't be possible for you. I'm sorry you will never truly understand that.
 
Ghery said:
You noticed the parallel, too?
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Yeah. Frankly, it's surprising it didn't happen earlier.

You've got all these people thinking those guys were some kind of criminal masterminds. I mean, really? How much masterminding does it take to come up with the thought of "why don't we go fly some airplanes into some iconic buildings; oh, we have to learn how to fly the planes, so I guess we'll need to learn how to do that."
 
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