Why do CFIs discourage midfield crosswind?

[dmspilot]

Then how do you land?

See edit

 

[dtuuri]

Until the IFR flight plan is canceled, separation with other IFR aircraft is provided. That's "control".

That is not strictly correct. Separation is provided when in IMC. In VMC even under IFR, the pilot is responsible for separation.

I hate to quibble, but what I said IS strictly correct. The only time an IFR pilot is responsible for separation with other IFR aircraft is when explicitly advised to maintain visual separation after the pilot has acknowledged having the other aircraft in sight. What you stated applies to separation from VFR aircraft.

 

[Lindberg]

Then the airspace is controlled but the airport traffic area is still uncontrolled...

Well that seems to be ambiguous. Probably why the FAA prefers different terminology for airports and airspace.

 

[MauleSkinner]

Well that seems to be ambiguous. Probably why the FAA prefers different terminology for airports and airspace.

Different terms like “airport” and “airspace”?

 

[WannFly]

Then how do you land?

You keep circling until you are bingo fuel, then you have all the right of way in the world

 

[WannFly]

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I hate to quibble, but what I said IS strictly correct. The only time an IFR pilot is responsible for separation with other IFR aircraft is when explicitly advised to maintain visual separation after the pilot has acknowledged having the other aircraft in sight. What you stated applies to separation from VFR aircraft.

Check 91.113(b)
https://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx?node=14:2.0.1.3.10#se14.2.91_1113

 

[dmspilot]

Check 91.113(b)
https://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx?node=14:2.0.1.3.10#se14.2.91_1113

What you and SkyHog are missing is that the above is NOT mutually exclusive with ATC separation of IFR traffic.

 

[dtuuri]

Check 91.113(b)
https://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx?node=14:2.0.1.3.10#se14.2.91_1113

You may want to reread that yourself. It says the pilot is responsible for "avoidance" not "separation". ATC provides IFR separation unless the pilot reports the other aircraft is in sight and ATC temporarily transfers the responsibility. You all might want to check out my tutorial series on IFR at www.AvClicks.com. These situations are covered.

 

[WannFly]

You may want to reread that yourself. It says the pilot is responsible for "avoidance" not "separation". ATC provides IFR separation unless the pilot reports the other aircraft is in sight and ATC temporarily transfers the responsibility. You all might want to check out my tutorial series on IFR at www.AvClicks.com. These situations are covered.

Well it does say avoid, doesn’t mention separation. Hmm learned something new today.

 

[MauleSkinner]

Well it does say avoid, doesn’t mention separation. Hmm learned something new today.

The words are set are generally chosen for a reason, not randomly picked from a dictionary.

 

[Matthew Rogers]

One issue I see is that different pilots and airplanes fly the downwind leg at different distances from the runway centerline. In my 150, I may only be 1/2-1 mile parallel to the runway, while some students training in diamonds could be 2 miles parallel to the runway in a wide pattern.

Is there guidance in exactly how wide the pattern should be? If not, this brings up a huge issue because you could have three aircraft all enter on downwind at 1/2 mile, 1 mile, and 2 mile parallel to the runway centerline all seeming like they are in a clear pattern with no one ahead of them. They could turn base at different distances too setting up a conflict. Now hopefully the radio calls would clear it up, but that is not a perfect solution.

 

[dtuuri]

One issue I see is that different pilots and airplanes fly the downwind leg at different distances from the runway centerline.

You mean like this (from my forum archives)?

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I think @EdFred accused me of stealing his lawn sprinkler plan.

 

[Matthew Rogers]

You mean like this (from my forum archives):

View attachment 73389​

Yep, exactly. Which one of those lines is “correct”? And if none are “correct”, where do you turn to the downwind on a 45 if you know others are in the pattern, but can’t determine how wide a pattern the others are flying? If you turn too late, you cut directly across a plane flying a wide pattern. If you turn too early, you may not be seen by those looking for planes in a narrow pattern.

 

[WannFly]

The words are set are generally chosen for a reason, not randomly picked from a dictionary.

I am not good at interpreting things, hence I am single . Why can’t they spell it out?

 

[dtuuri]

Yep, exactly. Which one of those lines is “correct”? And if none are “correct”, where do you turn to the downwind on a 45 if you know others are in the pattern, but can’t determine how wide a pattern the others are flying?

No such thing as "correct". Give way to other traffic and position yourself behind the farthest one from the runway that you give way to, so you can follow it.

 

[MauleSkinner]

I am not good at interpreting things, hence I am single . Why can’t they spell it out?

We’ve got a generator failure checklist that starts out:
1. Voltage.....DETERMINE MALFUNCTIONING GENERATOR.

You’d be amazed at how many pilots can’t figure out which indicator to use in determining which generator is malfunctioning.

 

[Ravioli]

That is not strictly correct. Separation is provided when in IMC. In VMC even under IFR, the pilot is responsible for separation. But either way, that separation does not occur once a pilot is handed to the UNICOM

Technically, if the NON-TOWERED (take your uncontrolled somewhere else) airport is IMC you do have separation until you call to cancel on the ground, because they will not clear another plane until you've either canceled or had the wreckage cleared.

If it's VMC you are always expected to see and avoid.

 

[G-force]

Yep, exactly. Which one of those lines is “correct”?

If everybody lands without hitting each other, they all are correct.

One issue I see is that different pilots and airplanes fly the downwind leg at different distances from the runway centerline. In my 150, I may only be 1/2-1 mile parallel to the runway, while some students training in diamonds could be 2 miles parallel to the runway in a wide pattern.

Is there guidance in exactly how wide the pattern should be? If not, this brings up a huge issue because you could have three aircraft all enter on downwind at 1/2 mile, 1 mile, and 2 mile parallel to the runway centerline all seeming like they are in a clear pattern with no one ahead of them. They could turn base at different distances too setting up a conflict. Now hopefully the radio calls would clear it up, but that is not a perfect solution.

Untill we all are required to fly GPS fenced "highways" in the pattern, it's going to vary. See and avoid is all you can do, you can't rely on radios at places where they are not required.