Why did Lindberg declare an emergency today?

[Teller1900]

No, the famed aviator didn't come back to life and declare an emergency. We were talking to Portland Approach today on 128.35 when we heard them vectoring another plane on their other freq (119.75). During their conversation with the GoJet flight (call sign Lindberg) we heard PWM ask first why they need the long (non-favored) runway, followed by "do you need any other assistance," followed again by "do you need the equipment?"

Of course we brought up 19.75 in the second radio. Long story short, they declared because of, what I assume to be an EICAS message warning them of a "possible flight spoiler failure that could reduce their ability to slow or stop" as they told the controller. I'm guessing it must be company policy or aircraft SOP to declare, because I can't imagine they'd have that much trouble stopping a CRJ-700 in 6700(ish) feet? The CA and I tried to figure out what we have on our airplane that would compare, but we couldn't come up with anything. So...why would they declare an emergency (expecting an over-run) if their spoilers failed?

 

[bbchien]

What else is on the actuation loop for the spoilers?
What TYPE are they flying?

 

[Teller1900]

What else is on the actuation loop for the spoilers?
What TYPE are they flying?

CRJ-700. I have no idea about the actuation loop for the spoilers. They didn't mention any other potential failures.

 

[Greg Bockelman]

Well, Matt, it doesn't cost anything. If in doubt...

 

[TMetzinger]

and it's winter, and since the SWA overrun, everyone is real cautious about required runway length.

 

[poadeleted20]

Well, Matt, it doesn't cost anything. If in doubt...

I'm with Greg -- any time we're into the abnormal or emergency procedures pages, I'm declaring. If it turns out no big deal, it hasn't cost me a thing, but if things go sour, I want all the help I can get and nobody else in the way.

 

[bjohnson]

I would rather take precautions to be safe than sorry.

 

[Teller1900]

I'm with Greg -- any time we're into the abnormal or emergency procedures pages, I'm declaring. If it turns out no big deal, it hasn't cost me a thing, but if things go sour, I want all the help I can get and nobody else in the way.

That's a fair point. I just didn't know if there was a specific concern with the slippery jets about an overrun sans spoilers, or if it was just a precautionary measure.

 

[Teller1900]

and it's winter, and since the SWA overrun, everyone is real cautious about required runway length.

After it rained the other day all the runways in the area are clear and dry (though not after tonight, anymore), but I suppose that could definitely weigh heavily on the mind.

 

[TMetzinger]

I was listening to a podcast "Come Fly with Me" the other day which talked about the JetBlue nose gear issue a couple of years ago. He had audio of the Captain's initial discussions with company maintenance and flight ops when they detected the problem. It ws instructive to hear the captain managing everything and still remaining firmly in command. When they were done with their first discussion, the consensus was that the gear would come down straight, but no nosewheel steering. The captain was going to head for Long Beach, instead of LAX, as it was a maintenance base for JetBlue, based on the preference of the company and the certainty of the ground folks that the gear would not come down cocked 90 degrees. The captain was adamant that if there was any chance of the gear being crooked he was going to LAX, because the runways were longer and they had the better "life support" capabilities.

Between that conversation and the end of the incident, something obviously happened and the captain chose to land at LAX, and the gear DID come down misaligned.

How this long rambling relates to the incident under discussion is that I think any captain is going to always want to stack the deck in his favor as much as possible. If nothing else, one has the satisfaction of knowing that he has done everything he can, even if things work out in a poorer way than hoped.

 

[Eamon]

When you look up an EICAS message in the quick referance handbook it tells you what to do. In this case what you do is increase the factored landing distance by a value. This value can be 1.75 times regular landing distance depending on the message.

On the EMB145 a spoiler fail message looked up in the QRH says to pull 3 breakers. Land with flaps 22 instead of 45 (If panel might be open) add 10 kts to landing speed. Add 1.35 runway distance.

All these steps make the plane land longer but also protect direction control in case one is open & one is closed. Not having any or only part of the 4 to slow also adds stopping distance.

Saying the "E" word is a PIC thing. Not having props to slow you down makes the spoilers/speed brake an important control surface. I would call it an 'E"

 

[AWACSEng]

Not to mention that on some aircraft spoilers are also an important flight control surface.

 

[gismo]

That's a fair point. I just didn't know if there was a specific concern with the slippery jets about an overrun sans spoilers, or if it was just a precautionary measure.

IIRC the CRJs don't have reverse thrust so the lack of spoilers might be significant on a short runway (with "short" being a relative thing here).

 

[Henning]

Well, Matt, it doesn't cost anything. If in doubt...

Exactly, there's multiple benefits really since the long runway is not the prefered runway. Not only do you get more runway (IMO, it would be imprudent not to use the longest available when such a question presents) you also don't shut down the prefered/active if something does go wrong. I think they made the right call even if it came out as a non event.

 

[Henning]

I was listening to a podcast "Come Fly with Me" the other day which talked about the JetBlue nose gear issue a couple of years ago. He had audio of the Captain's initial discussions with company maintenance and flight ops when they detected the problem. It ws instructive to hear the captain managing everything and still remaining firmly in command. When they were done with their first discussion, the consensus was that the gear would come down straight, but no nosewheel steering. The captain was going to head for Long Beach, instead of LAX, as it was a maintenance base for JetBlue, based on the preference of the company and the certainty of the ground folks that the gear would not come down cocked 90 degrees. The captain was adamant that if there was any chance of the gear being crooked he was going to LAX, because the runways were longer and they had the better "life support" capabilities.

Between that conversation and the end of the incident, something obviously happened and the captain chose to land at LAX, and the gear DID come down misaligned.

How this long rambling relates to the incident under discussion is that I think any captain is going to always want to stack the deck in his favor as much as possible. If nothing else, one has the satisfaction of knowing that he has done everything he can, even if things work out in a poorer way than hoped.

He has to, he holds the liability, not only that, but he should as well.

 

[Henning]

That's a fair point. I just didn't know if there was a specific concern with the slippery jets about an overrun sans spoilers, or if it was just a precautionary measure.

As captain, if you don't take ALL the precautionary measures available to you and things go wrong, you are hung, no ifs ands or buts, you are hung and the company is hung as well.
OTOH, If you enact all the precautions, have them roll the equipment, the whole nine yards, and you make the high speed turnoff and taxi up to the gate, you pay absolutely NO penalty.
As FO look at your epaulets, they have three stripes of responsibility, they are the craft, the crew, and the pax. When you make captain, they add another stripe, and that is liability. If it does go wrong, and you didn't do everything possible, games over, aircarrier operations are Strict Liability, no excuses at all.

Even in my own plane when I had 2 private passengers on board and had to return to LGB OEI holding altitude with blue line + 10kts @ 25 squared, no worries making it in at all, when tower asked "Would you like us to roll the equipment?" my response was "Might as well, I might screw this up yet."