Why climb for ice?

Hi Dave,

I learned how to fly a long time ago out of ADS at a place called Centerline. I used to keep my plane at lakeview and also a long time ago used to rent a j-3 85hp cub out of there for $32.00 an hour....I do miss it down there and plan on getting back soon when the kids leave..ha!

Its been some time ago but best I remember it was around the month of Jan and we had a cold front pass through the night before..with the back side of the front we had alot of low level clouds and moisture with the ceilings rapidly dropping. From about around 3k on down to the surface winds were out of the north and below freezing and at around 5K winds were out of the south and above freezing. Basically was decending for the approach and in a wintertime low level jet up from the S.W. flew through the inversion and subsequent w/s plus the obligator turbulence and started taking on ice like nobodys business. Ceilings were dropping went missed and had to do a ils with a 8kt qtring tailwind breaking out at 200. The problem was trolling around for the missed in the soup with the temps at alt of about 28F. I've seen alot of weather, but I guess for me the speed of the accumulation rate is what suprised me. After landing and surveying the plane I'm not proud to say the the accumulation was so sever that ice building up on the nose cone had deformed and become flat, with an accumulation of about 4 to 6 inches. I know the question is why continue in such bad ice. Ice accumulation can be so fast and severe that by the time you make your decision to get out of it you could have accumulated a good load of it. So my sugestion is to look at pireps, temps aloft , moisture, and at the first trace of ice have a plan and use it. I remember an intructor that took on a load of ice while flying vmc in light rain. Inversion aloft with rain coming down into a freezing layer at the altitude he was flying ...the thing came back with a nice coat of clear ice. wings windsheild and all....ice is were you find it.

By the way I will be in Denton Texas Monday allllll daaayyy with the Piaggio at Jet Works getting some maint done on the aircraft. Feel free to stop by and visit. I will be the big grumpy guy since I have a 04:30 wake up call to get the thing down there when the doors open.
 
Thanks Doug:

I'd be happy to get together with you sometime. Do you mean next Monday--not today, right??

My plane is at Addison and I'm in north Dallas. Late in the day during the week or on the weekend would probably be the only time I could come up there. Could grap coffee or lunch here if you came into Addison.

I was curious because I often fly in conditions where icing may occur. Like Bruce, I only proceed if I have at least one sure out. I have accumulated ice fast on one occasion flying west over El Paso when I ran into freezing rain at 12,000 feet. I climbed to FL 180 where it was complely clear on top.

Was wondering what the conditions were where you encounted things to see if it's something I would have considered flying it--doesn't sound as if I would have. Course, I'm not tooling around in a King Air. I'm looking at K-ice planes, but am only on track to climb through thin stuff, descent or to give myself more outs. Don't really have to fly through inversions behind cold fronts: I can just wait another day.

Thanks for sharing this--always learning.

Best,

Dave
A-36TN ADs
 
Does anyone have knowledge of the deicing system developed by Northcoast Technologies and is being installed on the Columbia 400's. Apparently it is a complex sort of layer that is heated by its own altenator. Does it work? I believe it does not clear the plane for known icing, but from what I have learned one should do their best to plan and avoid thosae conditions anyway.

Also given a choice in the simplest terms: What about a 180 degree course change if allowed to?

Scott Ps- please bear in mind I am a beginer and naive
 
redcloud said:
Does anyone have knowledge of the deicing system developed by Northcoast Technologies and is being installed on the Columbia 400's. Apparently it is a complex sort of layer that is heated by its own altenator. Does it work? I believe it does not clear the plane for known icing, but from what I have learned one should do their best to plan and avoid thosae conditions anyway.

Also given a choice in the simplest terms: What about a 180 degree course change if allowed to?

Scott Ps- please bear in mind I am a beginer and naive
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First, you should understand that even "known ice" systems on GA piston airplanes especially singles can easily be overwhelmed by ice and should only be considered as a tool that expands your options for escaping ice. In my airplane (a Baron) I lose 10-20 KIAS in ice with all the icing equipment (boots on the wings and tail plus alcohol on the props and windshield) operating. This is due to the many unprotected areas like the nosecone, prop spinners, antennas, beacons etc on which the ice will accumulate as long as you're in icing conditions.

The system offered on the Lancair Columbia, uses electric heat applied sequentially to many small portions of the wing and tail leading edges. The trick is to create enough heat to detach the ice without causing water to run back onto the unprotected portion of the airfoils. With boots this isn't a problem (there are other potential problems with boots though) as there is no melting involved. Most jets use bleed air (hot air from the compressor stages) to heat the leading edges but in those systems there is lots of heat compared to the Northcoast system.

Personally I think the Northcoast system may be prone to problems in certain icing situations that could be handled with boots or weeping wings (TKS), but only time will tell. It certainly should be a lot better than having nothing but pitot heat to fight ice buildup.
 
redcloud said:
Also given a choice in the simplest terms: What about a 180 degree course change if allowed to?
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"if allowed to?" Folks, if you're getting ice you can't handle (which, for a non-de-ice airplane is ANY ice), and a 180 is the fastest way out, you do it, whether ATC agrees or not, and if anyone doesn't like it, you quote 14 CFR 91.3(b). Don't mess with ice, and don't let ATC drive you into it unwillingly.
 
IIRC, the system on the Lancair is not/will not be certified for flight into known icing.

Check carefully....
 
As a side note, I'd like to point out that the actual flight into icing certification is not always K-ice as is commonly represented.

The P-Baron POH specifically states flight is approved into 'existing icing conditions'. The Duke and King Air actually state into 'known icing conditions'. Had some very interesting discussions with the Ratheon folks about the difference. In the end, it seemed to them, if a P-Baron pilot on the ground was aware there were existing icing conditions before launching into them, that's a no-no; however, if icing conditions are discovered along the route somewhere, it's approved to fly into them. What the ?. Everyone agreed the P-Baron is approved to fly in forecast icing conditions.

Interesting huh. Let's just increase pilot responsibility in the gray areas....right!!

Best,

Dave
 
Dave Siciliano said:
As a side note, I'd like to point out that the actual flight into icing certification is not always K-ice as is commonly represented.

The P-Baron POH specifically states flight is approved into 'existing icing conditions'. The Duke and King Air actually state into 'known icing conditions'. Had some very interesting discussions with the Ratheon folks about the difference. In the end, it seemed to them, if a P-Baron pilot on the ground was aware there were existing icing conditions before launching into them, that's a no-no; however, if icing conditions are discovered along the route somewhere, it's approved to fly into them. What the ?. Everyone agreed the P-Baron is approved to fly in forecast icing conditions.

Interesting huh. Let's just increase pilot responsibility in the gray areas....right!!

Best,

Dave
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I think the "real" rule is don't crash because of ice.
 
Ron Levy said:
"if allowed to?" Folks, if you're getting ice you can't handle (which, for a non-de-ice airplane is ANY ice), and a 180 is the fastest way out, you do it, whether ATC agrees or not, and if anyone doesn't like it, you quote 14 CFR 91.3(b). Don't mess with ice, and don't let ATC drive you into it unwillingly.
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Ron is right on this one. I want to share an experience I had with icing last winter. I was traveling IFR and there was an Airmet for icing with a freezing level at 3500 MSL, OVC 1500, Tops reported at 9000 MSL. I was east bound at 3000 and the OAT was 1C I kept an eye out for ice and started to get some trace. It was building, the OAT had dropped to -1C. I am an ice chicken, before I wait it out to see what to do I take action. This was one of those cases were climbing would have been a bad thing. I would have been climbing higher into the clouds and into worsening icing conditions. It would have been a long time to get up to 9000 feet and then I would have had to come back down through those conditions to land.

Within 1 minute I hit the nearest button say that I was 15NM away from an airport with an ILS and that it, asked my wife to get the plate out and advised approach that I had ice, asked for the vector to the airport and lower. They came back and said ok, gave me the vector new altitude, and we set up for the approach with the happy ending we all like. But had they said anything about delaying I would have said the magic words and turned around anyways.

The bottom line is that the same solution will not work for all of the circumstances. You ned to really know what is happening around you have a plan, and keep revising it on the changing conditions.

Scott
 
Ron Levy said:
"if allowed to?" Folks, if you're getting ice you can't handle (which, for a non-de-ice airplane is ANY ice), and a 180 is the fastest way out, you do it, whether ATC agrees or not, and if anyone doesn't like it, you quote 14 CFR 91.3(b). Don't mess with ice, and don't let ATC drive you into it unwillingly.
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This is a classic example of skin, tin, ticket. Unfortunately, if you use 91.13(b) you should expect ATC to opt for #3.
 
Ed Guthrie said:
This is a classic example of skin, tin, ticket. Unfortunately, if you use 91.13(b) you should expect ATC to opt for #3.
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I have never heard of a pilot losing his ticket for using 91.3(b) authority either to refuse an ATC direction that would take him into icing, or to do a 180 without permission to get out of unexpected icing. The only times I've seen pilots get in legal trouble is when they choose to fly into known/forecast icing conditions and then have to mess up ATC's day in order to get out of something they should have known not to go into in the first place. But even then, controllers seem reluctant to file a PD unless the pilot is a real jerk about things or causes a loss of separation or other "you can't hide it from your friends" event.
 
As others have said, you should plan your escape from ice long before you encounter it. You should then not hesitate to activate your escape plan as soon you encounter it.

I've never had a problem with ATC, even in busy NY and DC airspace. When I picked up ice, I told ATC "N123XX needs a climb/descent for ice". I either got my request granted immediately, or I got something like "you can have that in XX minutes or miles". If I didn't get an immediate change my response was generally "Roger, expect change in XX, we'll let you know if we have to move sooner", and ATC was fine.

In my experience ATC wants you to get out of the ice as badly as you do, and I've never had them be reluctant to work with me, and I've NEVER heard of them pursuing a violation against a pilot who deviated from instructions when dealing with ice, when that pilot kept ATC in the loop.

I heard an IAD controller once stop several airliners in their descent and divert them from their approaches in order to accomodate a cessna needing an immediate descent through the airspace, and nothing ever happened to the cessna pilot. To his credit, he told ATC what he needed as soon as he needed it, told them "unable, ice accumulating rapidly, leaving 7 for 3" when they asked him to wait, making it clear to them that he had a situation, he was working it, and they were required to assist him. If he'd been less communicative and less assertive it may have been a different story.

Best wishes, (and nice to see you posting, Ron!)
 
When we were taking a Lifeline Exec. Director Candidate to a Board Meeting in Chicago, there was Ice everyplace. We'd earlier taken a downwind ILS to CMI to pick up the founding director (the clag was too low to circle). My then Aviation Mentee, nee taildragger student flew left seat -rated manipulator and I as PIC. At 10,000 south of Chicago we got ice- I immediately said, "Chicago departure, 32XYY needs immediate climb for ice". Chicago dep (C90) replied, "not at this time". I heated the props, windshield, and blew the boots, but it was starting to get more than moderate. "Dexxx, put us in full climb, here's 100% power, I'll manage Chicago".

My response was, "Chicago Departure, 32XYY is climbing through 10,500 to on top, which is nearly visible at this time". Remember, the tops are where the lift runs out, the globules hang out, and the ice is worst.

There was a flurry of transmissions. In the clear at 11,000. He moved two aicraft. There was nary a peep from ATC until, "32XXY, are you in the clear?".

Remember, this is Chicago Approach, C90, the guys who "can't hear you" and who....well you get it.
 
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bbchien said:
When we were taking a Lifeline Exec. Director Candidate to a Board Meeting in Chicago, there was Ice everyplace. We'd earlier taken a downwind ILS to CMI to pick up the founding director (the clag was too low to circle). My then Aviation Mentee, nee taildragger student flew left seat -rated manipulator and I as PIC. At 10,000 south of Chicago we got ice- I immediately said, "Chicago departure, 32XYY needs immediate climb for ice". Chicago dep (C90) replied, "not at this time". I heated the props, windshield, and blew the boots, but it was starting to get more than moderate. "Dexxx, put us in full climb, here's 100% power, I'll manage Chicago".

My response was, "Chicago Departure, 32XYY is climbing through 10,500 to on top, which is nearly visible at this time". Remember, the tops are where the lift runs out, the globules hang out, and the ice is worst.

There was a flurry of transmissions. In the clear at 11,000. He moved two aicraft. There was nary a peep from ATC until, "32XXY, are you in the clear?".

Remember, this is Chicago Approach, C90, the guys who "can't hear you" and who....well you get it.
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There are some pretty decent controllers out there and they do indeed earn their money with the stress their under. But, every so often there's one like you ran into. He'd rather deny a clearance and risk the pilot not only declaring an emergency but actually becoming one. I don't get that.

To some, I guess airliner fuel burn is more important than your safety.
 
To be fair, it can be hard for controllers to know how bad things are. In addition, sometimes it can effect the "Big Boys" as well.

I generally plan to avoid ice. I don't give myself a "couple of minute exposere". If I think it is likely I will encounter ice in a non K-ice plane then I do not go.

On this particular occasion, however, I encountered a severe and sudden temperature drop and built up ice so fast that the T-Arrow I saw flying was going down but whether I wanted to or not. I informed the controller that I was descending to which the response was something along the lines of "fine, but turn left, there's a horizon flight in the same boat". And indeed there was a horizon Dash-8 that descended out of the ice.

The point, even a K-ice twin turbo can get caught. And if it can get caught, your piston single can get caught like you cannot believe.

~ Christopher
 
On my way to work I was ataching a Huey land at KMSN, and that got me to thinking about our fling wing friends. I know that helicopters are operated in IFR conditions, but what do you do when you run into inadvertant icing in a chopper?!?!

Just wondering

Pete
 
vontresc said:
On my way to work I was ataching a Huey land at KMSN, and that got me to thinking about our fling wing friends. I know that helicopters are operated in IFR conditions, but what do you do when you run into inadvertant icing in a chopper?!?!

Just wondering

Pete
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I had a class earlier this year and the instructor had just come down from flying the Jayhawk up in Sitka, AK and I asked him this very question. He said their biggest defense for ice in addition to the deice systems they have on board was to stay as close to the relatively warmer water. But this is active Coast Guard fling wing fliers so they are used to nap of the earth flying. He said they would often be between 20-50 feet above the water in icing conditions.
 
i think most IFR helicopters have electrically heated leading edges on the blades.
 
wsuffa said:
And to top it off, the KIND of deicing system and TYPE of icing makes a huge difference, too. Roselawn is the poster child for a K-Ice plane becoming overwhelmed by SLD ice. OTOH, slow-forming rime is usually a different story if you have boots.

According to folks that have flown both boots and TKS, the TKS system is far superior for preventing icing in the first place. It does cost in terms of chemicals, but from everything I've heard my preference would be for TKS.
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Yes I have used boots on King -Airs and the TKS on the Cirrus I am flying. The TKS is far better as long as the wings are "wet" before you enter the cloud tops.

Before I fly I compile a composite of information for my decison

1. I look at the CIP for my altitude and verify there is no icing conditions painted on my route, identify projected "safe areas."
2. I look at Temps at altitudes to Identify "safe" areas and how they look against MEA's. I like to be safe at MEA +2000 ft.
3. Check PIREPS for ice and sky reports for prohibative conditions
4. Obviously check AIRMETS.
5. Check area forecast to help identify Tops/Bottoms


Another tip if you think you may get ice is to "haul it" coming down through the tops. The less time you spend there the better. Increase Appch speeds even with a trace of ice. You never know how much ice has accumulated on unprotected surfaces. Also, your tail is where ice tends to accumulate first. Do youself a favor and read this http://aircrafticing.grc.nasa.gov/courses.html

The FAA council recently took another stab at defining icing condition, particilarly "visible moisture" as clouds at or below freezing, soon after ,the FAA recinded thier decision , The current position from the FAA is that the final decision rest with the pilot, however the pilot must have composite information that reasonably dictates flight in non-icing conditions.
You can read the letters here.
http://www.genebenson.com/Articles/known_icing.htm

new position
http://www.genebenson.com/docs/icing_interpretation_april_07.pdf
 
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It is interesting, but if I read their website correctly (http://weepingwings.com), the "poster child" for TKS, the Columbia, is one of the only aircraft for which they make a system that is not K-ice.

~ Christopher
 
jwriteclub said:
It is interesting, but if I read their website correctly (http://weepingwings.com), the "poster child" for TKS, the Columbia, is one of the only aircraft for which they make a system that is not K-ice.

~ Christopher
Click to expand...

Not quite - it's all in the syntax.

They sell non-K-Ice-certified versions for a number of planes. The K-Ice versions cost more due to the redundancy requirements. For example, the Cessna 210 version is available in either K-Ice or non-K-Ice.
 
What you say is true, my point was simply that the 210 and other can be purchased in a K-ice configuration, while the Columbia cannot.

~ Christopher
 
I took a trip to Alaska in 2006 in my T310Q (no de-ice) in July. We left Bellingham Washington enroute to Ketchican @ 10000'. There was occasional light rime icing predicted from freezing level to 14000'. About 1 hr into the 3 hr flight we started picking up light rime icing with an OAT of abt 25 deg F. I decided to climb and at 16000' (where the OAT was 5 deg F) we were out of the icing but still IMC. Closer to Ketchican we ran out of the IMC at higher altitudes and did the ILS in solid IMC. We could have opted for lower but that would have put us closer to the mountain tops and the further north we went the more likely the freezing level would also be lower. Point is: Have a plan! By the way the whole trip from Bellingham to Anchorage was IMC both ways. The trip up had an offshore flow with colder temps, on the way back had onshore flow with warmer temps and lower ceilings.
 
Wow, I just don't know what to say.

There is just *no way* those gymnasts were 16. No way.
 
Gee, and here I hoped to see some extra useful info.

That said, this was the first time I'd gone through this entire thread. And THAT was useful! Especially coming up on winter months with my instrument rating and the Mooney. :)
 
Great thread.

So fall is coming up and then winter here in the Bay Area, and I now have my instrument rating. Are there any general patterns or rules of thumb around here concerning when and under what conditions icing is likely to occur.

I understand the seriousness of icing and the need to not go into it, or to get out of it as soon as it is encountered (particularly in the 172s I fly).

But my question is this: round here, is it a case of 'never fly in IMC below 35F (or 40F, pick your temperature)'? Or are there certain circumstances in which icing is far more likely than others?

Thanks,

Tom (keen to use my instrument rating, not keen to be an icing test pilot)
 
sfbaytom said:
Great thread.

So fall is coming up and then winter here in the Bay Area, and I now have my instrument rating. Are there any general patterns or rules of thumb around here concerning when and under what conditions icing is likely to occur.

I understand the seriousness of icing and the need to not go into it, or to get out of it as soon as it is encountered (particularly in the 172s I fly).

But my question is this: round here, is it a case of 'never fly in IMC below 35F (or 40F, pick your temperature)'? Or are there certain circumstances in which icing is far more likely than others?

Thanks,

Tom (keen to use my instrument rating, not keen to be an icing test pilot)
Click to expand...


Sigh, around the bay area, that probably isn't the worst rule to use. Of course, if the clouds are well above the freezing level, you may be just fine, plus you have the out of going down. But on those cols winter days when the marine layer goes from 300' to 12,000', you probably don't want to go flying in a 172. Might be a good day though to take a multi lesson in a K-Ice Seneca....
 
wsuffa said:
Not quite - it's all in the syntax.

They sell non-K-Ice-certified versions for a number of planes. The K-Ice versions cost more due to the redundancy requirements. For example, the Cessna 210 version is available in either K-Ice or non-K-Ice.
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KI also costs more because you have to finance the flight behind the C130 spray boom, sometimes several times.
 
Tom: There's just a lot to know here and what you've said will keep you out of trouble. Bruce wrote a wonderful article about dealing with it; the better your systems and experience, the more you may be able to deal with.

Unfortunately, on a plane where only the pitot tube is heated, once you get into icing, it stays on the plane unless you can get to above freezing temps for all practical purposes. There are times you can get up on top or stay under, but in a non-k-ice plane or at least a plane with a lot of systems to shed ice and keep indicators from freezing up, the best policy is to stay out.

The P-Baron has things folks see and several systems they don't think about. Even with those, we don't plan on staying in icing conditions long: we'll climb through where it's not a big system, descend through or slog along in less than moderate for short periods, but we don't plan on staying in icing conditions very long.

Folks that really do their homework can deal with this reasonably well but once you get IMC you really can't tell where the bad stuff might be. In a non-K-ice plane, I would launch if I had several outs, could stay below or get above through a hole if I could get down later, but not deliberately fly into icing conditions.

In the P-Baron the other day, we got into ice at 17,000 and even with all the systems we have, the plane began to slow a lot before we could get clearance lower. Turned out the hot prop on the right engine wasn't working even though the indicator on the panel showed it was on. It's just not as simple as climbing to get out unless you can see the tops just above you. If you do that, most moisture is in cloud tops.

Best,

Dave
 
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Ted DuPuis said:
Especially coming up on winter months with my instrument rating and the Mooney. :)
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I really, really, really avoid ice in my Mooney. I would virtually never assume I could climb above the ice in a 200hp plane with a laminar flow type wing.
 
sfbaytom said:
Great thread.

So fall is coming up and then winter here in the Bay Area, and I now have my instrument rating. Are there any general patterns or rules of thumb around here concerning when and under what conditions icing is likely to occur.

I understand the seriousness of icing and the need to not go into it, or to get out of it as soon as it is encountered (particularly in the 172s I fly).

But my question is this: round here, is it a case of 'never fly in IMC below 35F (or 40F, pick your temperature)'? Or are there certain circumstances in which icing is far more likely than others?

Thanks,

Tom (keen to use my instrument rating, not keen to be an icing test pilot)
Click to expand...
From everything I've seen, there generally is some ice in the clouds in the winter months from November-early March. It seems like it's never really a very thick icing band, nor is it generally severe. So climbing/descending have gotten me out of it within less than one thousand feet.

If anything, though, it's never ever a case of not flying in IMC below 40 or 35. It's always 32. You cannot - simply cannot - get icing above that.

I'd say that 90% of days in the Bay Area in the winter are flyable. If there is ice, it's generally light, and it's also usually not very widespread because our IMC is quite often restricted to the Bay. Once you get away from that, we usually have higher ceilings. I've gotten light ice coming back to the Bay in the descent a few times. Started around 5000' and stopped around 3000'. One of those times, my HSI failed, too, so that made for an interesting approach :D

You want to watch out for the usual things, like any convective activity or fronts. There are days when we have severe ice around here.

-Felix

PS: I'm surprised you noticed a loss of speed, Dave. I've been in light - moderate in the Bonanza (clear, we had a few 2 inch pieces) and I didn't notice any speed loss. That plane takes ice really well...
 
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tonycondon said:
i think most IFR helicopters have electrically heated leading edges on the blades.
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That is actually the exception, not the rule. Very few IFR certified helicopters have a rotor ice protection system.

What timing. I spent 4 hours in the box tonight with clients doing RIPS and various anti-icing failures.
 
sba55 said:
-Felix
PS: I'm surprised you noticed a loss of speed, Dave. I've been in light - moderate in the Bonanza (clear, we had a few 2 inch pieces) and I didn't notice any speed loss. That plane takes ice really well...
Click to expand...

I climbed or descended though ice several times in my A-36 Felix, and never recall losing more than about 10 knots, but, as you, didn't stay in icing conditions long. I did have approach put me right in icing once during a descent; came close to declaring an emergency when they wouldn't give me lower. It worked out when I was close to pushing the push-to-talk switch.

Both my partner and I recently went through icing in the P-Baron and had a significant speed loss within ten to fifteen minutes. In the past, this never occurred. We found the right prop heat wasn't working. There may be more to it than that; this is just what we could immediately find. The props are a bit shorter on the Baron than those on my A-36 were. We're still in trouble finding mode. Oh, we also have a weak mag on one engine that just revealed itself.

I guess my point being, even in a K-ice plane, stuff happens and it isn't good to stay in those conditions longer than necessary. You've thought through this and seem like the kinda of fella that plans ahead. Some folks aren't that way. As has also been pointed out, the plane makes a difference.

Best,

Dave
 
Oh, I might add, the ice you can see may not be the problem; the horizontal stabilizer ices up pretty fast and can stall. It may be difficult to see that it is a problem. That may not be an issue when up higher, but sure becomes one on approach and landing. There is a pretty compelling video NASA did showing the effect. In the P-Baron we are to maintain airspeeds above 130 knots when carrying ice. One may not want to use flaps on the approach in light of this.

Best,

Dave
 
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