Why are so many OSH vendors wasting oxygen?

[Jay Honeck]

This year I was on a quest for info about a new prop for Atlas, our Cherokee Pathfinder. We dutifully schlepped our way around the vast Airventure grounds, gathering info at every prop shop's booth, as well as the manufacturers.

Not a single one, other than Hartzell (the manufacturer) could give me a price. The others would listen to what I wanted, and then hand me their card, with some variation of "Call me after the show."

By the third one I just laughed and blurted out "Why are you here?". Their bosses are spending huge money to rent and staff a booth at Airventure, and the best they can do is say "Call me next Monday?".

Upon voicing my frustration to others in our group, I discovered that my experience was not unusual. Many had similar stories.

What's going on here? I remember when the vendors at OSH were competitive, scrapping for every sale. Now, all the avionics vendors are subject to price controls (by Garmin, and others), and the prop people are just wasting precious oxygen in the over-heated exhibit hangars.

 

[Dean]

Most, if not all venders are there to display their product or to introduce a new item to the buyer. When it is time for you to buy the expect you to contact them at the office. Very few take inventory with them to sell while at a trade show, which is pretty much what Air Venture has turned into.

 

[dell30rb]

I havent been to airventure but it would make sense if they had deals available; not like they have to carry a prop in inventory. Ex decided on a boat but waited until the annapolis sailboat show to write a check. Got a 10k electronics upgrade

 

[jtheune]

I understood that you did not actually buy the prop from the manufacturer but rather from a shop who installed it. Since the install costs can vary widely depending on what you need done I can see why they would not want to quote you a price without knowing more about the install as people tend to not hear the caviot in the price that says depending on what we find.

 

[Pa28-140]

I don't think your expectations are realistic. If I am buying an item that I can carry away, I would expect a firm price. Otherwise, I want to see and learn about the product, find out if there are any airshow specials.....and I'll call later. I agree with JohnT.

 

[schmookeeg]

I understood that you did not actually buy the prop from the manufacturer but rather from a shop who installed it. Since the install costs can vary widely depending on what you need done I can see why they would not want to quote you a price without knowing more about the install as people tend to not hear the caviot in the price that says depending on what we find.

How complicated can a prop install on a Pathfinder be? I agree with OP on this one, if they're just at Osh to showcase a product, they may as well be booth babes -- and the burly individuals I usually see in those booths are FAR from my minimum spec for totty.

Here's my pricing & install checklist:

[ ] Our STC covers your plane model?
[ ] Your governor is compatible? (If no, add $x,xxx for new governor)
[ ] Your check cleared?

I can't imagine what else there is. Most prop kits come with spinners, neh? It's 6 bolts and a large-type check.

 

[denverpilot]

Oshkosh seems a tad like Comdex used to be, back in the day. It's a Marketing event for many of the vendors who don't get it. They think people haven't shown up with money in their pockets.

Their loss. I bought stuff I wanted to buy.

Some avionics install place could make a killing putting a "we'll stick to it no matter what, here's your final price" offer up at their booth for doing things like Aspen conversions, etc. If they needed to, make up a checklist with the same questions they'd have to ask the owner if they showed up at the shop... put a price on each item... a "Choose your own adventure" flowchart.

The few avionics installation places I saw, all seemed to be napping under their canopies with no one talking to them, and a small pile of marketing slicks sitting, not getting taken by anyone, on the tables.

I'm starting to agree with the folks here who've said aviation vendors have gotten ultra-lazy. There's a few online places that are bucking this trend with nailed-down "here's the price tag" online only pricing, but if you can't do business in person -- why show up?

Oh wait... they get to write off their OSH trip on their taxes. That's probably it.

 

[mikea]

Dunno, but one consideration why you can't buy stuff is what happened to make Sporty's stop selling there. The Wisconsin Dept. of Revenue not only came after Sporty's for sales tax, but they had the ridiculous demand that Sporty's disclose what the their annual worldwide sales was and them pay Wisconsin sales tax on 1/52nd of that for the week they were in Oshkosh.

The result of that is that Hal stopped selling anything within Wisconsin.

 

[steingar]

I'll bet there's a clause in their agreements with EAA that they can't do work on the field.

 

[denverpilot]

Dunno, but one consideration why you can't buy stuff is what happened to make Sporty's stop selling there. The Wisconsin Dept. of Revenue not only came after Sporty's for sales tax, but they had the ridiculous demand that Sporty's disclose what the their annual worldwide sales was and them pay Wisconsin sales tax on 1/52nd of that for the week they were in Oshkosh.

The result of that is that Hal stopped selling anything within Wisconsin.

Uhh, Sporty's had a booth and it was doing a brisk business, if I remember correctly?

 

[jesse]

Uhh, Sporty's had a booth and it was doing a brisk business, if I remember correctly?

Indeed they did. I mostly don't do business with Sporty's now because they've rolled so many of their own products (logbooks, radios, etc) and hardly stock their competitors products. So they're not really a one stop shop for evaluating your options.

 

[Steve]

When I was shopping for a new prop a few years ago I left my email with Hartzell and MT and had an email waiting for me when I got home with a quote and the documentation that verified compatibility. I think they were being careful not to ruin my week at OSH. I opted the overhaul route instead (~1/4 the cost of an upgrade).

 

[AcroBoy]

The EAA also gets a cut of everything sold at the Airventure, which adds to the cost. This is one of the reasons why Sporty's wasn't there for years.

 

[Geico266]

The EAA also gets a cut of everything sold at the Airventure, which adds to the cost. This is one of the reasons why Sporty's wasn't there for years.

Wrong. EAA only collects booth fees. I've worked booths at OSH for a decade. No such "cut" added on to any sale, except maybe tee shirts and crap.

As to the OP 's issue, he is buying one prop, maybe, and expects to be treated like royalty? Most of the business deals are B2B. Yes, they are there to answer questions and promote their products, but get real. Asking you to call them after the show is a polite way to say go away. Your "mission" is important to you, but you would have been better served doing your bidding on the phone and save your OSH time looking at airplanes.

 

[SCCutler]

As to the OP 's issue, he is buying one prop, maybe, and expects to be treated like royalty? Most of the business deals are B2B. Yes, they are there to answer questions and promote their products, but get real. Asking you to call them after the show is a polite way to say go away. Your "mission" is important to you, but you would have been better served doing your bidding on the phone and save your OSH time looking at airplanes.

Or, to put it another way, they're saying, "buy from someone else"?

 

[murphey]

I gotta agree with Jay. Far too many of the Big Name Vendors were window dressing, only showing glitzy toys. And if you didn't look like you could afford it, they wouldn't even answer questions.

I went to Sensenich about a prop, and all I got was "here's the price list" and turned away to chat with his booth mate. Guys at Garmin didn't even acknowledge I existed when I asked a question. Let's not even talk about Bendix-King. Yet the ForeFlight & WingX people would spend as much time as needed, even explaining details. Two of the developers were there and we had a great geek-out time.

The objective this year is to completely redo the interior of the cherokee. Went over to AirTex and Dodd showed me the new product line, discussed schedules, gave me a solid quote. When I explained I preferred something from the previous product line (discontinued as of Aug 1) he called back to the factory and confirmed there was enough of the material to make the interior. Placed the order right there. When I checked email that night, two messages: one asking for photos of the current interior and the second asking for more specific measurements.

That's customer service. That's how to make a sale with a happy customer.

 

[TangoWhiskey]

I gotta agree with Jay. Far too many of the Big Name Vendors were window dressing, only showing glitzy toys. And if you didn't look like you could afford it, they wouldn't even answer questions.

That's a dangerous characterization for a vendor to apply to a potential customer. Have you seen how multi-millionaires dress? You wouldn't know that the guy in ragged flip flops and shorts, floppy hat, has 6.5M to spend, just looking at him.

Here's how the story went, as we heard it over lunch from a fellow from Yakima, WA who is associated with CubCrafters:

CC wasn't making much money, selling their Cubs at just over cost, as they didn't "think" that a Cub could sell for more. This guy we were having lunch with told the owner to "mark up the price $25K". The owner gaffed at the suggestion, but later that day got a phone call from a guy in NY who had seen his friend's new CC, and wanted one himself. The prospect said: "Hey, saw my friend's new CC, how soon can I get one??!" The CC owner tested the waters, and said "Well, just so you know, we just had a price increase of $25K." The prospect's response: "I didn't ask how much it COSTS, I asked HOW SOON can I get one!"

Light bulb moment for CC. They realized that the pockets of the buyers of THEIR Cub are different than the pockets of the guys flying freight and people in Cubs in Alaska. Different market, different way of thinking.

Don't pre-judge customers, or their ability to afford what you're offering. Especially not on the basis of their "appearance". Stan, who was with me, got into some great conversations and seat time in some high end jets and turboprops with those vendors that have this figured out. He doesn't LOOK like a millionaire, but for all they know, he JUST MIGHT BE ONE.

 

[dmccormack]

Your company laid off 40% of its work force since 2008, you haven't seen a raise in 2 years, the future looks even bleaker, you used to bring 5 people to this show and now it's you an Ned (the owner's nephew), and you and he get to stand in the heat and deal with onsie-twosie $50 net deals....

Yeah, trade shows are such fun....

 

[Henning]

That's a dangerous characterization for a vendor to apply to a potential customer. Have you seen how multi-millionaires dress? You wouldn't know that the guy in ragged flip flops and shorts, floppy hat, has 6.5M to spend, just looking at him.

Here's how the story went, as we heard it over lunch from a fellow from Yakima, WA who is associated with CubCrafters:

CC wasn't making much money, selling their Cubs at just over cost, as they didn't "think" that a Cub could sell for more. This guy we were having lunch with told the owner to "mark up the price $25K". The owner gaffed at the suggestion, but later that day got a phone call from a guy in NY who had seen his friend's new CC, and wanted one himself. The prospect said: "Hey, saw my friend's new CC, how soon can I get one??!" The CC owner tested the waters, and said "Well, just so you know, we just had a price increase of $25K." The prospect's response: "I didn't ask how much it COSTS, I asked HOW SOON can I get one!"

Light bulb moment for CC. They realized that the pockets of the buyers of THEIR Cub are different than the pockets of the guys flying freight and people in Cubs in Alaska. Different market, different way of thinking.

Don't pre-judge customers, or their ability to afford what you're offering. Especially not on the basis of their "appearance". Stan, who was with me, got into some great conversations and seat time in some high end jets and turboprops with those vendors that have this figured out. He doesn't LOOK like a millionaire, but for all they know, he JUST MIGHT BE ONE.

I used to work for a multi Billionaire that if you looked at him you'd think he was homeless except that he was clean. His "boat clothes" most all came from thrift shops, he looked like an ancient Leprechaun...

 

[Jay Honeck]

Dan's point about cutbacks is probably on the money. The guys at the top have cut their marketing budget to zip, but feel they have to appear at OSH. So, they send the two lowest-time schmucks on the payroll to be the face of their product line, at the biggest aviation trade show in the world.

As usual, dumb management wins the day. They will now look at their sales results for the show, see that they are down "x" percent year-over-year, blame "the downturn", and use it to justify pulling out of future shows.

It's funny/sad/predictable. I had the same experiences as a marketing manager in another dying industry: newspapers.

 

[Jay Honeck]

Or, to put it another way, they're saying, "buy from someone else"?

Exactly. There is absolutely no way I am going to buy anything from a vendor I have flown thousands of miles to see, who hands me a business card and says "Call me Monday."

All I wanted was their price of a Hartzell Top Prop. It would have required bringing a price list, and an employee who could actually read it. If they can't provide that, they are in the wrong business.

 

[ScottM]

Dan's point about cutbacks is probably on the money. The guys at the top have cut their marketing budget to zip, but feel they have to appear at OSH. So, they send the two lowest-time schmucks on the payroll to be the face of their product line, at the biggest aviation trade show in the world.

As usual, dumb management wins the day. They will now look at their sales results for the show, see that they are down "x" percent year-over-year, blame "the downturn", and use it to justify pulling out of future shows.

It's funny/sad/predictable. I had the same experiences as a marketing manager in another dying industry: newspapers.

Were you one of the "low time schmucks" sent on the road or were you one of the 'dumb managers' winning the day?

 

[tonycondon]

its pretty difficult to fly home with a prop in the backseat and its not like they can install them on field

 

[Henning]

Exactly. There is absolutely no way I am going to buy anything from a vendor I have flown thousands of miles to see, who hands me a business card and says "Call me Monday."

All I wanted was their price of a Hartzell Top Prop. It would have required bringing a price list, and an employee who could actually read it. If they can't provide that, they are in the wrong business.

You may not get a good price though. What they are going to give you is MSRP price where as the prop shops get wholesale or jobber price. Often shops discount from MSRP to get the business.

 

[Jay Honeck]

Were you one of the "low time schmucks" sent on the road or were you one of the 'dumb managers' winning the day?

Both, at various times.

I was also a third character: the defeated manager, arguing to do the "right thing" and to pay for/attend/staff community events that had been eliminated from our budget.

 

[Jay Honeck]

You may not get a good price though. What they are going to give you is MSRP price where as the prop shops get wholesale or jobber price. Often shops discount from MSRP to get the business.

These WERE prop shops.

 

[ebacon]

Since you are from Texas maybe they thought you were one of those Port Aransas dope dealers out on bail.

 

[mikea]

Uhh, Sporty's had a booth and it was doing a brisk business, if I remember correctly?

OK. I was talking about what happened a few years back. They must have settled the nonsense in the meantime.

 

[Jay Honeck]

Since you are from Texas maybe they thought you were one of those Port Aransas dope dealers out on bail.

Well, we never got that far, but...it's funny you mention this. I grew up in Wisconsin, and always thought that "we" talked "normal" -- without accent.

After living in Iowa and Texas for the last 14 years, wow -- Wisconsin people sound funny! All the waitresses at LaSure's, Friar Tuck's, Hilton, and Charcoal Pit sounded like Yoopers. Not a single y'all from any of them...