Who to call for suspected missing aircraft?

Amateur? You want amateur get the CAP involved.

GET YOUR ASS OUT OF THE WAY OF SEARCHERS. You are FAR worse than those jerks who fly drones into wildfires to take pictures, because you will cause additional emergencies. You don't know what the hell you're doing, and you will prevent those who do from doing their job safely.

Oh, and you might want to check on AFRCC's assets, because they are not limited to CAP.

The actions you suggest are violently incompetent. Stop it.
 
GET YOUR ASS OUT OF THE WAY OF SEARCHERS. You are FAR worse than those jerks who fly drones into wildfires to take pictures, because you will cause additional emergencies. You don't know what the hell you're doing, and you will prevent those who do from doing their job safely.

Oh, and you might want to check on AFRCC's assets, because they are not limited to CAP.

The actions you suggest are violently incompetent. Stop it.


:rofl:

Yeah, I'll get my high time ATP butt, with a never ending load of recurrent training, my bush aircraft, and my very well trained friends out of the way so some 60yr old ex Air Force janitor, now turned grand CAP pumbiya, can fly his 500hr VFR PPL self, in a red white and blue 182, with a few secret squirrel wannabes acting as "spotters" who all attend a a few meetings and are now self proclaimed SAR Pros.

Please.

Like I said you got to know you're local assets, now if we were talking a Blackhawk crew, maybe a cop chopper sure, but risking a standard issue CAP clown squad, no thanks.

Here's a snippet from a earlier topic on this

Smart move sir......

I went back and re-read ALL the pages of this thread.... I see now I was VERY vocal and maybe over the top.... but I am passionate about helping fellow humans. And when I see a failure to do that I get on a mission..

Also, the link I provided in post#30 is invalid since BackCountryPilots now does not allow viewing of that thread over there without joining....

And that particular crash is the one that put the icing on the cake for me to seriously question the CAP..

For all the newbies here who didn't get to read what happened. I will give you a quick summary

This is the crash...

http://www.ntsb.gov/_layouts/ntsb.aviation/brief2.aspx?ev_id=20121202X23953&ntsbno=WPR13FA061&akey=1

As an active member of BCP, we try like hell to assist in helping /saving fellow pilots and were held off from searching by the CAP....

A few days after the crash I got this email out of the blue from someone I don't know...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi Ben!


I'm an old fogey who believes in lessons learned rather than blaming others. Please ask the other folks to keep this private for now. We don't need anyone stirring up these agencies right now or upsetting the family.


We LOVE the many dedicated folks who comprise SAR teams! But in the case of this crash, the system was horribly
broken.


These are some of the things that apparently went wrong with the notifications & procedures. They are listed chronologically whenever possible. Note: The aircraft apparently crashed shortly after noon on Sunday, 11.2 miles East of the Fillmore Airport (FOM).


1) There was an unconfirmed report in Sevier County on Sunday of smoke on the ridge between Millard County and Sevier County. Because there was no report of an aircraft emergency, it is unknown what procedures were implemented.
2) Although the FAA reportedly issued an ALNOT Report at 1148, Monday -- lots of counties and agencies were NOT notified for several days.
3) Utah CAP (usually Chaplain Boyd) regularly briefed the extended family on the search area & number of planes assigned. At the time, we did not know that they kept refusing other SAR resources (Pilots For Christ - Wyoming and other volunteers). It is still unclear who they did & did not notify. It is still unclear if they truly had the authority for all command decisions and had the right to refuse competent SAR resources. There seems to be conflicting guidance on this and even the counties didn't seem to know who was in charge.
4) Tuesday evening, I was flabbergasted that the Millard County Sheriff's Office dispatcher told me that they were NOT aware of any missing plane even though they were located in Fillmore -- where the plane was last seen. Chaplain Boyd had briefed me that he was in touch with their acting Sheriff and he knew about it -- but the dispatcher claimed no knowledge of it and wasn't interested in the information.
5) In subsequent days, family & friends were contacting lots of county sheriff's offices to verify that they had been notified. We are still gathering times, dates, names, etc., but several counties including adjoining counties told us on Wednesday & even Thursday that they had received NO notifications on a missing plane in the area. Some counties said that they were quite upset because they had highly trained & equipped SAR resources that would gladly have begun searching days earlier.
6) Wednesday, we were assured that several counties including Millard (Fillmore) had lots of ground SAR teams searching the local area. We were contacted on the Facebook page "Prayers for Trista, Shy & Matt" by private folks in that area who had volunteered their services with horses, ATVs & sleds, etc., but they told us that they were told by the county that they were NOT needed because they already had LOTS of search teams. Later, we received unconfirmed reports that SAR teams were not really deployed in that area after all. We really don't know!
7) When family members were contacting the governors & senators of UT & WY requesting National Guard resources such as Black Hawks and ground search teams, they were repeatedly told that it was impractical because the search area was 2400 sq. miles. This was an invalid reason for rejecting those resources, because there was NO evidence that they ever got out of the valley from the Fillmore Airport. Shortly after takeoff, there was one single ping received near Mt. Pleasant -- with NO further contact. On Wednesday, a group of us including off duty pilots and an air traffic controller went over every scrap of evidence or absence there of. We went through EVERY conceivable scenario and our group agreed unanimously that there was NO evidence they ever got out of the valley area. On Wednesday night, I contacted CAP Chaplain Boyd and he verbally agreed with our findings. I insisted that because a severe winter storm was forecast, the governors & National Guard must be contacted immediately to mobilize all appropriate resources for Thursday morning. Black Hawk helicopters would be absolutely critical in searching the local ridges, canyons & ledges before they would be buried by snow! One Utah National Guard Black Hawk made one sortie late Thursday afternoon and reportedly were joined by 2 more on Friday. We are unaware of any National Guard ground search resources being deployed.
icon_cool.gif
Because of our connections with the USAF, Wing Commanders or Command Posts at several bases in the region were contacted. Significant resources such as photo reconnaissance aircraft, rescue helicopters and even unmanned drones were reportedly available but had to be officially requested through channels. We had a friend who works with classified satellite imagery that said they could have helped, but we couldn't get anyone in authority to make the request. That imagery and/or unmanned drones could have focused around the Fillmore area, the mountains just north and east of there, and a few lakes in the area.
9) Idaho Search & Rescue was contacted by family members and they indicated they could provide technical expertise or deploy teams & equipment if officially requested through channels. That option was not chosen.


End Result: The missing plane was found by a Utah DPS helicopter at approx. 8:00 am, Sunday, Dec. 2nd, 2012 -- 11.2 miles east of the Fillmore, UT Airport. The pilot, 2 passengers and 2 dogs did not survive.


The Utah State Medical Examiner in SLC states that the pilot died almost immediately, but his 34 year old girlfriend probably lived 3-4 days. Both of her lower legs were broken, but she eventually died from exposure. He also stated that her 9 year old daughter probably lived for 4-5 days before lying down next to her mother and dying of exposure. Grrrrr! She was relatively uninjured and her tracks were all over the hillside apparently trying to get help. The NTSB Lead Investigator stated a cell phone was found showing that the young girl had been trying to send text messages to her Daddy for help. Grrrr!


I'm sure that there are plenty of officials that feel terrible about this tragedy. But I highly doubt that any one of them would have any idea how horribly the system failed us all in this case. Some of these counties spend a lot of time, effort, and money preparing for SAR missions. We cheapen their dedicated efforts if we don't find the resolve to overcome these critical problems. In honor of our young friends -- we MUST do better and save lives in the future!!!


We will appreciate your efforts to help with this matter. Thank you!


You guy /gals can draw your own conclusions on why I feel the way I do..




 
... Yeah, I'll get my high time ATP butt, with a never ending load of recurrent training, ... self proclaimed SAR Pros. ...
Speaking of self-proclaimed SAR pros, please let us know what aspects of your ATP and recurrent training involve SAR. Also let us know what other SAR training and experience you have that would cause us to believe that you are not just another internet loudmouth. Note: "Training" not "flying around looking at the ground."

My wife could have half a dozen friends or more airborne in under an hour ...
Please advise how many times you have successfully launched this private air force of yours within an hour. And will your wife do the tasking for what it to be covered and the deconfliction or will she just send the furball down the route and hope they go to the right places and hope that they don't run into each other in the process?

That belongs in someone's signature block. Love it!
Yes. I wish it was original with me but I picked it up from some other internet thread where, similarly, a couple of self-proclaimed geniuses were stomping around.
 
You're right, I now shall stand at attention and salute you as you nobly strike a pose in your CAP onesie, for you are the gods of SAR and all of us pale in comparison.



As far as me, got lots of low level experience, lots of site survey experience, lots of crummy wx experience, lots of backcountry operations experience, a OK amount of wilderness EMS experience, as for actually finding stuff well I have found some cattle for folks before, spotted other stuff too.

Frankly I won't be in CAPs way, with how long they take and how they operate, I'll probably find my buddies before they even launch one of their mighty 182s.
 
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You found some cows once? That's your SAR credential? Got it.
 
You found some cows once? That's your SAR credential? Got it.


And what has the average CAP guy actually found?

According to many NTSB reports, squat.

Sorry, but flying a few basic SAR patterns ain't rocket surgery.

As for the cattle, I've been fortunate not to need to go looking for any of my friends in downed aircraft, but as for the cattle last I check they are a little smaller than most aircraft.
 
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And what has the average CAP guy actually found?

According to many NTSB reports, squat.

Sorry, but flying a few basic SAR patterns ain't rocket surgery.

As for the cattle, I've been fortunate not to need to go looking for any of my friends in downed aircraft, but as for the cattle last I check they are a little smaller than most aircraft.

It shows just how little you really know about this.

Cattle are incredibly easy to find from 1000 AGL, unless they are hiding under trees. Very high contrast, and very few false signals. It's not too difficult to tell cattle from sheep at that altitude. BTDT. Counting them, well, that may take a bit more effort, and it's not something I've tried.

Aircraft are not so easy unless they are on fire. Even in open farmland, a wrecked airplane looks a HELL of a lot like old farm equipment, debris piles, fallen trees, etc., and some look like as little as a bit of disturbed foliage and that's it. Fabric covered airplanes and heavily forested terrain are the worst.

The "average" CAP ES member does not have a distress find because it takes a lot more than one aircrew to accomplish that successfully and predictably. Occasionally, people get lucky, and it's a lot easier if an ELT goes off -- and they usually don't. Most of us do have non-distress finds because there is no shortage of accidental ELT signals even now.

FYI, much of the recent activities has been from self-proclaimed "experts" like you flying lower than they should and finding power lines. And the resulting power outage is the best way to find them when that happens, not an airborne search and an ELT search is not likely even if it goes off (power lines screw with ELTs).

The worst thing about this is that you think you do understand it. You don't. Not even close. It's like some self proclaimed RC or sim expert claiming they can fly your aircraft because all your ATP training is irrelevant.

And there is much more to a search than flying one airplane. The critical part is the planning section. Just how many searches have you planned? Do you know how to exclude an area? Flying over it once is almost never enough, even in perfect weather, and flat, open terrain.

If you are not in radio contact with the relevant CAP base, you cannot stay out of their way. Since when is assuming a long response time and a big sky considered competent deconfliction? Especially when looking for the same thing. And you are very unlikely to have appropriate radios for that.
 
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You're right, I now shall stand at attention and salute you as you nobly strike a pose in your CAP onesie, for you are the gods of SAR and all of us pale in comparison.



As far as me, got lots of low level experience, lots of site survey experience, lots of crummy wx experience, lots of backcountry operations experience, a OK amount of wilderness EMS experience, as for actually finding stuff well I have found some cattle for folks before, spotted other stuff too.

Frankly I won't be in CAPs way, with how long they take and how they operate, I'll probably find my buddies before they even launch one of their mighty 182s.

Most people don't have someone with your skill set available to them, so the question is, who should THEY call?
 
No disrespect to the good guys in CAP

Sadly, that is not how your post comes across.

For better or worse, CAP is the civilian search and rescue arm and they do a pretty good job at it. Personally if I ever wind up getting trapped in a crashed airplane, I would rather have them flying to find me than not.
 
Most people don't have someone with your skill set available to them, so the question is, who should THEY call?

We determined it was FSS. Then they will get someone of his skill set.
 
Most people don't have someone with your skill set available to them, so the question is, who should THEY call?
I think the answer is pretty obvious.

  • If you have lost some cows, James331 might be a good choice. He found some cows once.
  • If you would like the country's SAR infrastructure to be put to work helping you, call an AFSS.
 
We determined it was FSS. Then they will get someone of his skill set.

I was just highlighting the fact that his personal skill set does not answer the question for people who are not in a position to avail themselves of his services.
 
Most people don't have someone with your skill set available to them, so the question is, who should THEY call?

You have a point.

No matter who you call, if you're concerned having a spot or spider tracks in the plane is a great investment and can even be used for much more than flying.



FYI, much of the recent activities has been from self-proclaimed "experts" like you flying lower than they should and finding power lines. And the resulting power outage is the best way to find them when that happens, not an airborne search and an ELT search is not likely even if it goes off (power lines screw with ELTs).

So guess no one should fly floats, ABW should probably not sell bush wheels anymore, airglas should stop selling skis, and no one should fly backcountry :rolleyes2:

If you're doing your due diligence, if you do site surveys, understand what you're doing, it ain't that dangerous.
 
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Come on guys, you should know by now it's no use trying to argue with James331. As far as he's concerned, even James Bond can't hold a candle to him; it's amazing his head fits through the airplane door :wink2:
 
My experience with other CAP Mission Pilots was pretty good; the majority had significant hours, usually with instrument ratings; many ex military or airline types, though ATP and turbine time doesn't translate well to SAR (or crop dusting or fish spotting, either). Different kinds of flying, right?

But truth be told, there were a few I didn't think were up to speed; not a lot, but a few. And some that weren't exactly aggressive about prosecuting a mission.

The "Planning" can be a goat rope, and it can fall down there - the percentage of folks in the "Air Branch" that shouldn't be allowed through the door is probably higher than the less-than-stellar Mission Pilot cadre. I've been assigned altitudes that were useless in search; spent 30 minutes orbiting, trying to get a rational decision from Mission Base; and had "briefings" that were longer than missions. Everyone has something "important" to tell you. . .

So yeah, call the Feds. But if you have instant access to some aircraft, a fast route search (if you know the route) might do it; plus or minus five miles either side, might get lucky. . .if it's a long-haul kind of search, CAP has enough bodies and airplanes to be useful.

It got a little heated in earlier posts - I don't have a dog in the fight anymore, so as a calming point; yeah, CAP has some weenies and wannabes; also some very skilled folks. In the middle of the curve, they're mostly pretty competent.
 
Come on guys, you should know by now it's no use trying to argue with James331. As far as he's concerned, even James Bond can't hold a candle to him; it's amazing his head fits through the airplane door :wink2:

No argument here bud

I made no claims of being a SAR god, that said it doesn't take a SAR legend to follow a magenta line, or better yet follow a spots bread crumbs. If a friend goes down with a spot I'll see if I can't find him, but I'm not exactly offering SAR classes or writing a book on the subject.

As for the CAP, I'm just going off what the NTSB reports said, the folks I've met and the first hand accounts of folks who relied on them to do a job.
 
No argument here bud

I made no claims of being a SAR god, that said it doesn't take a SAR legend to follow a magenta line, or better yet follow a spots bread crumbs. If a friend goes down with a spot I'll see if I can't find him, but I'm not exactly offering SAR classes or writing a book on the subject.

As for the CAP, I'm just going off what the NTSB reports said, the folks I've met and the first hand accounts of folks who relied on them to do a job.

It takes someone with a clue to find a missing aircraft that didn't follow the plan exactly. Which happens in emergencies all the time. SPOT can help, but if you follow it, you ABSOLUTELY will be in the way. Do you really think everyone else is such a blubbering ignoramus that they won't figure that out, too? Do you have the radios to deconflict, or are you just going to create a hazard?

Standard procedure is to do a route search and last known position FIRST. Sometimes you do get lucky. So, you will indeed be in the way.

Are you REALLY claiming to have read all the NTSB reports to make your determination? Very few of them mention search and rescue with any specificity.

Anecdotes are not data. There are a number of people you have relied on on this board -- one of whom you quoted -- that have axes to grind with CAP. And I'm quite familiar with what he claims. He bases it off a single incident where he was rather obviously in the way and got luckier than the searchers. Your conclusion is only as good as its supporting data. You have no data.

I'll say it again. You wouldn't try to obstruct the fire department in order to fight a neighbor's house fire with a garden hose. Don't interfere with searches you aren't trained or equipped for. You can kill people.

Oh, and what on Earth will you do if there is no magenta line? It's not that rare, particularly with the low fliers or with those that know they have emergencies.
 
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When one of my close friends went missing last summer it was one of my former co-workers that found him. CAP was no help apparently other than tying up frequencies and ATITAPAing.

CAP isn't even very good at crashing into buildings.
 
When one of my close friends went missing last summer it was one of my former co-workers that found him. CAP was no help apparently other than tying up frequencies and ATITAPAing.

CAP isn't even very good at crashing into buildings.

If you blame that on CAP, you have nothing useful to say.

That it happened to be in a CAP aircraft is happenstance. It could have been any stolen aircraft.
 
I'll say it again. You wouldn't try to obstruct the fire department in order to fight a neighbor's house fire with a garden hose. Don't interfere with searches you aren't trained or equipped for. You can kill people.

I'll gladly pull my neighbor out of the house or start fighting a fire with what I have at hand while the VFD is still on their way TO the station house.

The mechanism to mobilize the official SAR system is necessarily slow. A private search effort can be under way for hours before the first CAP plane gets in the air.
 
BS. Friends of mine work in SAR. 30-60 minutes after a beacon or other verifyable signal is received they're in the air. One more reason to have a 406. As my SAR friends say, with a 121.5 they might go look for you. With a 406 they're coming to pick you up. And where I live? a PLB beacon doesn't dispatch the same assets as an ELT.

RESEARCH YOUR OWN REGION and figure out what's best for you.
 
BS. Friends of mine work in SAR. 30-60 minutes after a beacon or other verifyable signal is received they're in the air. One more reason to have a 406. As my SAR friends say, with a 121.5 they might go look for you. With a 406 they're coming to pick you up. And where I live? a PLB beacon doesn't dispatch the same assets as an ELT.

RESEARCH YOUR OWN REGION and figure out what's best for you.

We are not talking about an ELT search here.

If you call flight service and tell them that a plane you expected hasn't arrived (which was the original premise of the thread), there won't be anyone in the air within 30-60min.
 
When one of my close friends went missing last summer it was one of my former co-workers that found him. CAP was no help apparently other than tying up frequencies and ATITAPAing.

CAP isn't even very good at crashing into buildings.

I know a pilot in Alaska who flew like a moron and crashed. Therefore, all pilots in Alaska must be morons, right?
 
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