Who do they belong to?

alexgeo

alexgeo

Pre-Flight
Joined
Nov 7, 2013
Messages
62
Location
KWVI, KSAC
Display Name
Display name:
AlexG
Hi all, this is my first "thread" on PoA :D

I just finished up my PP cert last year and I've been enjoying the freedom I've gained from being able to fly. Even though I'm a college student and I only pull in a few thousand dollars a year from my low-level campus IT job, I've been able to set aside a small amount of money every month to take a flight here and there.

I've flown a large part the Sacramento valley and some parts of the Bay Area and I've been noticing something interesting about almost all airports I visit; every airport seems to have old, decaying airplanes sitting around in the corner of the airfield.

Since I don't have the $$$ to fly all that much, I usually go up for an hour, land and then walk around the airport/talk to the people at the place I rent from for a few hours before heading home. It's a nice way to fill my aviation 'fix' but without having to spend any $.

After my last little flight (pattern work at KWVI), I decided to take a walk around the airport to see if anyone around had their hangars open…and as I was doing so I stumbled across maybe a row of 5-6 airplanes that obviously had been sitting around for quite a while. One Bonanza (had very, very bad paint) actually had a fairly nice cockpit–dual controls with what appeared to be a 530 and a 430 (although they also could be the old Apollo equivalents). But when I looked at the papers stashed against the windows, I noticed charts and an AFD dated from 2005. The rust on the brake disks (drum? I don't know how to describe them) was also an indication that the plane had been sitting for a while. Now, don't think I'm climbing on board other peoples aircraft or anything…I'm just admiring these old beauties from a distance. It's just sad to see so many planes in such bad shape. I could go on and on about all the other planes I've seen, but I think you guys get the idea...

So my question is…who owns these damn things? Are the owners deceased and the airport authority too cheap to dispose of the aircraft? What can airports do to get rid of these things?
 
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alexgeo said:
Hi all, this is my first "thread" on PoA :D

I just finished up my PP cert last year and I've been enjoying the freedom I've gained from being able to fly. Even though I'm a college student and I only pull in a few thousand dollars a year from my low-level campus IT job, I've been able to set aside a small amount of money every month to take a flight here and there.

I've flown a large part the Sacramento valley and some parts of the Bay Area and I've been noticing something interesting about almost all airports I visit; every airport seems to have old, decaying airplanes sitting around in the corner of the airfield.

Since I don't have the $$$ to fly all that much, I usually go up for an hour, land and then walk around the airport/talk to the people at the place I rent from for a few hours before heading home. It's a nice way to fill my aviation 'fix' but without having to spend any $.

After my last little flight (pattern work at KWVI), I decided to take a walk around the airport to see if anyone around had their hangars open…and as I was doing so I stumbled across maybe a row of 5-6 airplanes that obviously had been sitting around for quite a while. One Bonanza (had very, very bad paint) actually had a fairly nice cockpit–dual controls with what appeared to be a 530 and a 430 (although they also could be the old Apollo equivalents). But when I looked at the papers stashed against the windows, I noticed charts and an AFD dated from 2005. The rust on the brake disks was also an indication that the plane had been sitting for a while. Now, don't think I'm climbing on board other peoples aircraft or anything…I'm just admiring these old beauties from a distance. It's just sad to see so many planes in such bad shape. I could go on and on about all the other planes I've seen, but I think you guys get the idea...

So my question is…who owns these damn things? Are the owners deceased and the airport authority too cheap to dispose of the aircraft? What can airports do to get rid of these things?
Click to expand...

Money and age are two separate factors. Emotions are a third.

Ever have to stop an elder relative from driving?

Ever scare yourself really badly?

Ever think about the day you get bad news from the doctor?

What happens if you get fired over 50 years old?

I ran into a guy as he was preflighting a single engine turboprop. He said it was his "last hurrah" as he was 70 years old. He was fit and sharp. Saw it up for sale the last time I was at his airport. My hunch is he failed his last medical.

I
 
Downturn in the economy,loss of medical,death of owner. These are some of the reasons. It's sad .
 
and one of the reasons they just sit there is the owner or owner estate places a unreasonable price on them. We had a 182 site in the grass by me for 10 years because the owner had a prop strike, rebuilt the engine and then was too scared to fly the plane again. It sat they for 8 years then he passed away and his widow tried to sell the plane and priced it as a plane with a fresh rebuild engine because it had only flown 5 hours since rebuild. it sat there for another 2 years. it's still there. Tie downs in the grass only run about 85 a month so it may end up there until it rots.
 
If you go to any of the major marinas on coast you'll see lots of large, expensive boats that never go out. The amount of marine growth on their bottoms is a clear indication they have become harbor queens. At airports there are always a number of hangar queens. It is sad, but common. Many of those planes are paid for and the owners are still healthy and able bodiedbodied. Frequently, lack of funds has nothing to do with the planes being idle. Some people get too busy with work, family obligations change or they just lose the passion for flying they once had. The Maule I bought last year had only seen 15 hours of use in the previous 18 months and the engine had corroded badly as a result. Sometimes absent owners will give a second set of keys to a trusted pilot friend and have them fly the plane just to keep oil circulating through the engine. You can use the FAA aircraft registry to find the owners of neglected aircraft. Sometimes a call to the owner can lead to a great opportunity.
 
jtheune said:
and one of the reasons they just sit there is the owner or owner estate places a unreasonable price on them. We had a 182 site in the grass by me for 10 years because the owner had a prop strike, rebuilt the engine and then was too scared to fly the plane again. It sat they for 8 years then he passed away and his widow tried to sell the plane and priced it as a plane with a fresh rebuild engine because it had only flown 5 hours since rebuild. it sat there for another 2 years. it's still there. Tie downs in the grass only run about 85 a month so it may end up there until it rots.
Click to expand...

This is very true. Still many are still owed by that pilot who is going to get flying again " they are gonna do it this summer" then next etc. I also believe the emotional factor is huge. Buying a plane is a dream for many it's hard to sell your dream so it just rots. Ramp Queens are every where.
 
It would be a "public service" for the AOPA, NBAA, and EAA to write a nice letter detailing ramp rot stories for airplanes left to estates vs those unloaded quickly and continuing to fly. Maybe even a simple url landing page, too. It would be a voice of reason from a semi-dis-interested party rather than the executor or family member. Maybe even offer an appraisal pre qualified as "this will be a low appraisal, but it will move quickly."
 
And there is a third side to us/you having someone decide a plane is not flying enough and sending a letter.
MYOB
What's next? Going through people's garages and telling them they have to sell their golf clubs because they are dusty.
I realize your internal drive for bringing this up is a mixture of desire and envy - you wish you could afford a plane. But really, it is none of your (our) business what a person does with their property.
 
0luke1 said:
Ever think about the day you get bad news from the doctor?
Click to expand...

No matter how healthy you are, you can get slammed by a medical problem you never saw coming. What's in your genes?

Luckily with partners the bird keeps flying even if you don't.
 
Dr. O said:
What's next? Going through people's garages and telling them they have to sell their golf clubs because they are dusty.
...
But really, it is none of your (our) business what a person does with their property.
Click to expand...

Does it matter if the rented space for the decrepit golf clubs is not inside a garage, but instead in the open, in a public place, on a municipal golf course, where everyone walks by?

At some point, the public matters. And so does the owner of the public space.
 
We have many of those rotting planes.
One is a young man who inherited a Bo when his dad died and left it to him.
He is "Going to get it back to flying condition one day" been about 15 years. There is no way it will ever leave the ground again.

Another s a beautiful Stinson. Lost medical but can't imagine letting his baby go. so he just goes out and dusts it off from time to time.

I pass a row of about 10 of those stories on my way to my hanger and they make me sad.
 
Same thing at my airfield (VKX). Several old Comanches, two old mooney's, some cessnas, a V35, and that's just on my side of the field. Just sitting there with weeds growing around them.

It'd be nice if people were more apt to allow others to fly them and post at their local airfields that they are looking for people. It's only costing them more money having them sit on the ground and corroding away.

Two birds with one stone. You help the aviation community out and give pilots with less financial means a way to get in the air. And you save yourself tens of thousands in maintenance by keeping the engine in good shape.

I wish openairplane would encourage this but as of now it just looks like FBOs wanting $145 an hour for their 172 post on there.
 
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alexgeo said:
Hi all, this is my first "thread" on PoA :D

I just finished up my PP cert last year and I've been enjoying the freedom I've gained from being able to fly. Even though I'm a college student and I only pull in a few thousand dollars a year from my low-level campus IT job, I've been able to set aside a small amount of money every month to take a flight here and there.

I've flown a large part the Sacramento valley and some parts of the Bay Area and I've been noticing something interesting about almost all airports I visit; every airport seems to have old, decaying airplanes sitting around in the corner of the airfield.

Since I don't have the $$$ to fly all that much, I usually go up for an hour, land and then walk around the airport/talk to the people at the place I rent from for a few hours before heading home. It's a nice way to fill my aviation 'fix' but without having to spend any $.

After my last little flight (pattern work at KWVI), I decided to take a walk around the airport to see if anyone around had their hangars open…and as I was doing so I stumbled across maybe a row of 5-6 airplanes that obviously had been sitting around for quite a while. One Bonanza (had very, very bad paint) actually had a fairly nice cockpit–dual controls with what appeared to be a 530 and a 430 (although they also could be the old Apollo equivalents). But when I looked at the papers stashed against the windows, I noticed charts and an AFD dated from 2005. The rust on the brake disks (drum? I don't know how to describe them) was also an indication that the plane had been sitting for a while. Now, don't think I'm climbing on board other peoples aircraft or anything…I'm just admiring these old beauties from a distance. It's just sad to see so many planes in such bad shape. I could go on and on about all the other planes I've seen, but I think you guys get the idea...

So my question is…who owns these damn things? Are the owners deceased and the airport authority too cheap to dispose of the aircraft? What can airports do to get rid of these things?
Click to expand...

www.faa.gov and input the tail number(s)
 
All very good points here. The picture is becoming clearer!

But all this talk brings up another question....

Let's say grandpa loses his medical and can no longer fly his Bonanza. Grandpa still pays the 100$ a month to tie his plane down, but he eventually dies a few years later. Let's also say that he has no wife and his kids that live somewhere far off don't care at all whatsoever about airplanes etc. etc. and the tie-down payments eventually become delinquent for a extended amount of time.

Can the airport salvage the airplane? Or will it just sit there for another 15 years?
 
Also has a lot to do with the emotion of letting go. You have to achieve a basic level of success to own even a beater 152. Once you obtain that goal and have that asset it is tough to let go even if you loose the passion that drove you to get it in the first place. For some, it can be a sense of defeat or even failure if you have to let it go...or for others the loss of depreciation of a rotting plane and hanger fees just do not matter cuz they have enough money.

I just let go of a sailboat that was becoming a harbor queen and some jet skis that were collecting dust. They were a big part of my life for quite a few years and it was really tough to let them go even though I knew it was time to sell. The storage and slip fees did cost money, but not enough to really matter for me.

Once I got my 182, I realized that it was OK to trade out toys as my life changes but some can not do that (still kept the wakeboard boat though!)
 
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alexgeo said:
Can the airport salvage the airplane? Or will it just sit there for another 15 years?
Click to expand...

Yes the airport can put a lien on the plane if there are unpaid tenant fees. Once they go through the notification process they can hold a lien sale to sell the plane and collect on the debt. This happens in marinas with boats all the time.

Problem with planes is that most airports have an abundance of tie down space and once the plane get to that point, it is usually only worth scrap cuz it has rotted away.

Other problem is that most airports are run by a municipality and there is little drive for someone to go and deal with that process...so they sit.
 
The airport or FBO can foreclose on the airplane, if it has outstanding debt against it, like ramp fees, fuel bills, or maintenance charges. I talked to my local FBO yesterday about this, they have a Lear 25 (?) with no engines that has been sitting for several years, at least 4 or 5. The owner of the FBO told me he thinks it will cost $2K to get clear title to it, they have $10K+ in past due ramp fees and maintenance charges, probably $20K. He hates to spend the money on getting ownership, it's really only good for parts and scrap. :dunno:
Most of these old planes just sit and rot away, if the owner dies, the estates either sell it immediately for what they can get OR they let it sit until they get what it's "worth" after all it's got low time, it's a one owner, it's got original paint and interior!! :rofl::rofl: It never brings what it's "worth" to these people and it sits and rots, after sitting for a couple years before the owner dies and 3 or 4 after he croaks, it's just a pile of aluminum. :no:

alexgeo said:
All very good points here. The picture is becoming clearer!

But all this talk brings up another question....

Let's say grandpa loses his medical and can no longer fly his Bonanza. Grandpa still pays the 100$ a month to tie his plane down, but he eventually dies a few years later. Let's also say that he has no wife and his kids that live somewhere far off don't care at all whatsoever about airplanes etc. etc. and the tie-down payments eventually become delinquent for a extended amount of time.

Can the airport salvage the airplane? Or will it just sit there for another 15 years?
Click to expand...
 
Funny this thread came up. I have seen some nice airplanes laying around at my airport with weeds starting to grow around the tires. Its sad to see.
 
Good riddance the faster all our ancient spam cans get recycled into beer cans the sooner we all get Moller flying cars. Seriously the old junk needs to go.
 
Yeah there's one down from me that I've never seen move in probably ten years. All three tires have disintegrated to the point where the plane is resting on the rims and wheel pants, and it appears of someone wrenched an aileron in the vertical position, probably to clean out the wasp nests that were becoming a problem.
 
Shawn said:
Also has a lot to do with the emotion of letting go. You have to achieve a basic level of success to own even a beater 152. Once you obtain that goal and have that asset it is tough to let go even if you loose the passion that drove you to get it in the first place. For some, it can be a sense of defeat or even failure if you have to let it go...or for others the loss of depreciation of a rotting plane and hanger fees just do not matter cuz they have enough money.

I just let go of a sailboat that was becoming a harbor queen and some jet skis that were collecting dust. They were a big part of my life for quite a few years and it was really tough to let them go even though I knew it was time to sell. The storage and slip fees did cost money, but not enough to really matter for me.

Once I got my 182, I realized that it was OK to trade out toys as my life changes but some can not do that (still kept the wakeboard boat though!)
Click to expand...


Shawn,

I went through this in the recent economic downturn. I got a "free" sailboat when the economy was better. Put enough into it to get her sailing again, spent 4 summers on her, and when i lost my job, the first thing to stop getting paid was the slip rent. I finally ended up losing her to the marina when i filed for bankruptcy.
 
I found a few on the local ramp where FAA didn't have record of it on the website. Pretty hard to go find the owner when the N number basically doesn't exist anymore. Flat tires, chalky paint, more bird scat than paint... They are all over and a sad thing. I have often dreamed of just taking one and putting in the hanger work before sending it to an A&P for the expensive stuff.

If it was only that easy.........
 
Jimmy cooper said:
America has lost millions of jobs that used to keep these planes flying.
Click to expand...
The tripling of avgas pricing in the last half dozen years along with the aging pilot population -combined with onerous and expensive medical requirements- have kept these planes from flying
 
You have to be gainfully employed at a steady job to buy a decent airplane. Jobs have taken a massive hit since 1980. In my area, Beth steel shut down ,thousands of jobs not including the suppliers. Gen motors big truck plant shut down, that's around 10,000 more jobs. This is only scratching the surface around Baltimore. Also remember the aircraft are getting ancient! A nice bonanza was somewhat in line price wise 30 years ago. Today, a five year old bonanza is big money. Unattainable to most. A lot of these old planes have grazed outside in the weather, degraded, many not worth fixing. It's entirely different from flying in the 70s-80., although the regulations have always been there and most are necessary due to many idiots in the air. ( check the FAA accident reports and their causes!) some real stupid decisions made by supposedly rational pilots.
 
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Jimmy cooper said:
You have to be gainfully employed at a steady job to buy a decent airplane. Jobs have taken a massive hit since 1980. In my area, Beth steel shut down ,thousands of jobs not including the suppliers. Gen motors big truck plant shut down, that's around 10,000 more jobs. This is only scratching the surface around Baltimore. Also remember the aircraft are getting ancient! A nice bonanza was somewhat in line price wise 30 years ago. Today, a five year old bonanza is big money. Unattainable to most. A lot of these old planes have grazed outside in the weather, degraded, many not worth fixing. It's entirely different from flying in the 70s-80., although the regulations have always been there and most are necessary due to many idiots in the air. ( check the FAA accident reports and their causes!) some real stupid decisions made by supposedly rational pilots.
Click to expand...

I don't even.
 
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