Who can update W&B records?

flyingcheesehead

flyingcheesehead

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I've discovered two "Weight / Balance Equipment List Revision" forms in my logs that are in error - They multiplied Weight * Moment/1000 instead of Weight * Arm to get the Moment.

Would it be OK for me to write in the correct math in a blank area of the page, or do I have to pay an A&P to do FAA-approved (hopefully correct this time) math?

FWIW, the "Owners Weight and Balance Record" page does have the correct math, and the revision forms do show what appear to be correct weights and arms of the things that were removed and installed.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
Would it be OK for me to write in the correct math in a blank area of the page, or do I have to pay an A&P to do FAA-approved (hopefully correct this time) math?.
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Wait a minute let me *grunt* put on my *twist and groan* asbestos undies and simply say that nothing I see in the regs requires the entry by a certificated mechanic, so I say go for it. If some bushwhacker Fed takes a swipe at you, simply beg forgiveness and get whatever signature you need then.

/asbestos mode off/

Jim
 
flyingcheesehead said:
I've discovered two "Weight / Balance Equipment List Revision" forms in my logs that are in error - They multiplied Weight * Moment/1000 instead of Weight * Arm to get the Moment.

Would it be OK for me to write in the correct math in a blank area of the page, or do I have to pay an A&P to do FAA-approved (hopefully correct this time) math?

FWIW, the "Owners Weight and Balance Record" page does have the correct math, and the revision forms do show what appear to be correct weights and arms of the things that were removed and installed.
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I don't suppose the mechanic/shop who made the error is anywhere close to you. If they were, I would suggest going back to them and having them redo it.

Otherwise, maybe the folks who do the next annual will do it for you. Seems like a 5 minute deal to me.
 
I merely held off making a correction until the next time I made a change that required a new weight and balance. (certified aircraft) 15 minute deal -- 1/4 of hour at the same rate as any other mechanical work.

Home built -- I do it.
 
The W&B document is just data. The airplane is what it is and it does not require an A&P to write that on a piece of paper. If you want, rather than scribble the correction onto the page, just type up a new one with the right numbers. There no signatures required.
 
The FAA Weight and Balance Handbook is available online.

Nothing definitive, but found this pretty quickly:

"The airframe and powerplant (A&P) mechanic or repairman who maintains the aircraft keeps the weight and balance records current, recording any changes that have been made because of repairs or alterations."

FWIW, I always thought it had to be done by an A&P, the logic being a pilot/owner might not be trained to properly compute and document changes.

Oh, and E-LSA - I do my own now as well.
 
FastEddieB said:
FWIW, I always thought it had to be done by an A&P, the logic being a pilot/owner might not be trained to properly compute and document changes.
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The computation we teach in the 6th grade when we talk about how to balance a teeter-totter with different weight kids on it. The calculation is pretty trivial.

Jim
 
FastEddieB said:
The FAA Weight and Balance Handbook is available online.

Nothing definitive, but found this pretty quickly:

"The airframe and powerplant (A&P) mechanic or repairman who maintains the aircraft keeps the weight and balance records current, recording any changes that have been made because of repairs or alterations."

FWIW, I always thought it had to be done by an A&P, the logic being a pilot/owner might not be trained to properly compute and document changes.
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If you ask the FAA, that's exactly what they'll say -- any change to the official W&B data must be signed by an A&P or certified repair station. Of course, in just the sort of situation described above, I've written up the spreadsheet which takes care of all the corrections, and then had an A&P sign it, but for Standard category aircraft, it does have to be signed by an A&P or CRS.
 
Ron Levy said:
...-- any change to the official W&B data must be signed by an A&P or certified repair station. ...
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You are talking about an alteration to the aircraft that changes the W&B data. Yes the A&P is going to sign the logbook for the alteration and update the W&B document but that's not what we are discussing here.
 
FastEddieB said:
...FWIW, I always thought it had to be done by an A&P, the logic being a pilot/owner might not be trained to properly compute and document changes...
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Umm, how did he get a pilot's license if he doesn't know how to calculate W&B? :dunno:

For one thing the W&B document is for an empty airplane. As soon as you put gas in the tanks and sit in the driver's seat you've altered the weight and balance of the aircraft and you have to know how to calculate that right?
 
Silvaire said:
You are talking about an alteration to the aircraft that changes the W&B data. Yes the A&P is going to sign the logbook for the alteration and update the W&B document but that's not what we are discussing here.
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Yes, it is. That A&P signed the W&B change, and it takes another A&P to make any further changes to those official aircraft records. There is nothing authorizing an individual pilot to make such changes to aircraft records on the authority of his/her pilot certificate.
 
Silvaire said:
Umm, how did he get a pilot's license if he doesn't know how to calculate W&B? :dunno:

For one thing the W&B document is for an empty airplane. As soon as you put gas in the tanks and sit in the driver's seat you've altered the weight and balance of the aircraft and you have to know how to calculate that right?
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There is nothing in any pilot certificate training requirement about how to determine the empty weight/cg of an aircraft other than looking at the official W&B documents for the plane. Once an A&P signs that paper, it takes another A&P to change it officially.
 
But we aren't determining or changing anything, we're just talking about writing the data that exists onto a sheet of paper. With no alteration and no wrench ever touching the airplane what exactly is an A&P supposed to be signing here?
 
W&B may seem trivial, and no doubt many forgo recalculating it before each flight, but the W&B information on empty weight at the time of each weighing is an official document and should not be modified by anyone except as noted above, an A&P that certifies the numbers.

Remember, if you get the numbers wrong your CG could be affected and that can lead to a safety issue. Personally? I would want that information verified by a pro before I added fuel, people and baggage to determine CG.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
...They multiplied Weight * Moment/1000 instead of Weight * Arm to get the Moment...
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So he multiplied the weight times the moment, which I guess he pulled out of a hat because where else could that number have come from? And then thought: Whoa...that number's WAY too big. So...maybe if I divide this one by a thousand...Oh yea, that looks more like it. :idea:

Maybe you ought to just get the plane weighed and start over from scratch :rolleyes:
 
Ron Levy said:
There is nothing in any pilot certificate training requirement about how to determine the empty weight/cg of an aircraft other than looking at the official W&B documents for the plane. Once an A&P signs that paper, it takes another A&P to change it officially.
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I agree but I've found A&P mistakes on several W&B updates. To remedy I either had the correction signed by the same FAA approved mathematician that miscomputed it or if the change was small, got it fixed during the next annual inspection.
 
Greg Bockelman said:
I don't suppose the mechanic/shop who made the error is anywhere close to you. If they were, I would suggest going back to them and having them redo it.
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Nope... 1500nm away.

What I think is silly is that both updates to the plane since new have the same error despite being from two different A&P's at two different shops! Clearly the second one looked at the first one's error and didn't catch it, proceeding to do the same thing. :mad2:

Otherwise, maybe the folks who do the next annual will do it for you. Seems like a 5 minute deal to me.
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Yep. I'll probably create a new sheet that goes back to the plane as originally shipped, takes care of all weight and balance changes using the weights/arms listed on the change sheets but computes things correctly, and have the IA sign it off at the annual here in a few weeks.

FastEddieB said:
FWIW, I always thought it had to be done by an A&P, the logic being a pilot/owner might not be trained to properly compute and document changes.
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Clearly, A&P's aren't necessarily better trained! :mad2: But every pilot should know how to properly compute the changes, as others have noted. It's a pretty simple calculation.

Silvaire said:
Maybe you ought to just get the plane weighed and start over from scratch :rolleyes:
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Meh... That co$t$ money, and I'm not concerned with it from any perspective other than legality since the only changes have been a transponder swap (KT76->GTX327) and the installation of a 406MHz ELT. If it were a 40-year-old plane with a ton of mods it might be more worthwhile.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
Clearly, A&P's aren't necessarily better trained! :mad2: But every pilot should know how to properly compute the changes, as others have noted. It's a pretty simple calculation.
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If A&Ps were good at math they'd never get into this business.:D

BTW just because the errors were made by someone far away doesn't preclude one of them from making the correction. If I were you I'd consider generating a completed worksheet starting from the last good set of numbers and email a PDF to the distant A&P for his signature. He could then scan and email the signed copy back or send it in the mail, presumably at no cost to you.
 
I've found errors on all 3 planes that I've owned. Most of them were because an W&B update was made by starting with an old version or subtracting off the wrong weight that was previously added. I've made the corrections and then updated with my A&P showing him the modifications I've made and have him sign it.
 
Look in FAR 43.5.



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 
weirdjim said:
And the place where that handbook became regulatory is found where?


Jim
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I did not mean to imply it was regulatory.

But seeking out how the FAA says they would like things done, and providing a source, is just something I am prone to do. There are often either regs or good operating practices behind their recommendations. But admittedly, not always.

Nothing inherently difficult about weight and balance, at least the fundamentals. A pilot really should be capable of computing it, and in most cases accurately recording a change.

But as we've see anecdotally in this thread, mistakes can and do get made. And not only by pilots.

And in the case of logbook entries or official amendments to prior W&B calculations, we're not discussing an error affecting a single flight - we're talking calculations which become a permanent part of the aircraft's records. As such, a simple mistake can "trickle down" to subsequent owners and pilots - hence the importance of getting it right.
 
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weirdjim said:
Yes, and your point?

Jim
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I guess, my point would be if you want to interpret the law, a good starting point is to read it first.

We really already knew who could update the W&B.

I'm not sure the term "Flight Data" is really defined anywhere.

And it begs the question, if it's not all done correctly is the aircraft really returned to service?

For an approved modification or repair I've always operated under the philosophy that the airworthiness is suspended until the A&P restores it with his log book entry.

So how much regulatory risk is the owner willing accept, what are the consequences, how much does it cost to eliminate the question altogether?

How close to the CG limits is the aircraft operated? Are their any real safety concerns?

Can you just get it resolved next annual, the years go by really fast for me.
 
I've tried to make this point a couple of times but nobody seems to be getting it:

There is no regulation stating that a W&B document must be written and signed by an A&P Mechanic unless some repair or other alteration, requiring an A&P and a logbook entry has been performed on the aircraft. In this case he simply wants to correct a clerical error and there is no regulation anywhere that says he, as pilot, owner, operator cannot type up a new document to supersede the erroneous one and place it in the aircraft records file.

Again - no repair, no modification, no alteration, no wrench has so much as touched the aircraft and no A&P is needed.
 
Silvaire said:
I've tried to make this point a couple of times but nobody seems to be getting it:

There is no regulation stating that a W&B document must be written and signed by an A&P Mechanic unless some repair or other alteration, requiring an A&P and a logbook entry has been performed on the aircraft. In this case he simply wants to correct a clerical error and there is no regulation anywhere that says he, as pilot, owner, operator cannot type up a new document to supersede the erroneous one and place it in the aircraft records file.

Again - no repair, no modification, no alteration, no wrench has so much as touched the aircraft and no A&P is needed.
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That's not true. The FAR requires AROW in the cockpit at all times. The W document is Weight & Balance. The other documents are also official, Airworthiness, Registration and Op Limits. The plane must be weighed after assembly or modification by personnel qualified and able to sign the W&B document.

If you don't believe that, ask for a ramp check by the FAA and see how you do if you don't have a W&B prepared in this way.
 
Silvaire said:
I've tried to make this point a couple of times but nobody seems to be getting it:
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Silvaire, I get it, I got it the first time, and I believe that you are right. As to the "ask for a ramp check" feller, ramp checks are done by ops people, not the FAA wrench crew. I believe way down deep in my gut that it is the owner/operator's right to make such documentation changes that are NOT SPELLED OUT SPECIFICALLY IN THE REGULATIONS. Don't go making your own interpretation unless you've got an opinion from the CHief Counsel to back you up.

I went head to head with the ops AND maintenance folks all the way up to and including the mahogany row in DC and guess what ... when the Chief Counsel issued his famous 5-page opinion on 21.303(b)(2) he nearly quoted me verbatim.

You can ask for local interpretations from now until hell freezes shut and until old CC writes his opinion, all else is conjecture.

Thanks,

Jim
 
weirdjim said:
Silvaire, I get it, I got it the first time, and I believe that you are right. As to the "ask for a ramp check" feller, ramp checks are done by ops people, not the FAA wrench crew. I believe way down deep in my gut that it is the owner/operator's right to make such documentation changes that are NOT SPELLED OUT SPECIFICALLY IN THE REGULATIONS. Don't go making your own interpretation unless you've got an opinion from the CHief Counsel to back you up.

I went head to head with the ops AND maintenance folks all the way up to and including the mahogany row in DC and guess what ... when the Chief Counsel issued his famous 5-page opinion on 21.303(b)(2) he nearly quoted me verbatim.

You can ask for local interpretations from now until hell freezes shut and until old CC writes his opinion, all else is conjecture.

Thanks,

Jim
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Are you stretching that to include certified aircraft?
 
Jaybird180 said:
Are you stretching that to include certified aircraft?
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No stretch involved or necessary. I believe the correct term is certificated, although all aircraft are certificated, some in experimental and some in other categories but I understand what you are asking.

Jim
.
.
 
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CTLSi said:
That's not true. The FAR requires AROW in the cockpit at all times. The W document is Weight & Balance. The other documents are also official, Airworthiness, Registration and Op Limits. The plane must be weighed after assembly or modification by personnel qualified and able to sign the W&B document.

If you don't believe that, ask for a ramp check by the FAA and see how you do if you don't have a W&B prepared in this way.
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The original W&B document that comes with the aircraft when it leaves the factory is only good until the first alteration or modification to that aircraft that requires the W&B to be updated. At that point the original document is superseded and is no longer relevant.

Now granted, there are very few circumstances in which a W&B document would be superseded without some sort of alteration, modification or repair having been done to the aircraft but the subject of this thread is such a circumstance. The A&P signature that you are insisting is required is not required because this is a W&B document, it is required because of the alteration that was performed on the aircraft. There is in fact no requirement for any signature on the W&B document because that is simply a piece of paper with the numbers which are what they are. The basis for those numbers is ALWAYS going to be from a logbook entry made at the time the alteration was performed.

In this specific case the revision is only to correct a clerical error and an A&P Mechanic is not required to do that. The numbers, in the form of the weight and arm of each component, HAVE NOT BEEN CHANGED. Only the erroneous math has been corrected.
 
Anybody who wants to test this need only show an FAA Inspector their official licensed empty weight document signed by someone other than the manufacturer, a certified repair station, or an A&P. Even better, make sure they know you've been flying the plane that way and that you think your own non-A&P signature on that document is sufficient. A video of the encounter would be fabulous.
 
Silvaire said:
Huh? Go ahead and show us what that is and what regulation states you are supposed to have it in your airplane.
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14 CFR 91.9 and 91.103, according to the FAA, make the "W" in AROW (or ARROW if you're flying internationally) a requirement. The explanation of how that is was laid out in an article for what was then FAA Aviation News (now FAA Aviation Safety) in 1999. Go find the article "A-R-O-W ????" by H. Dean Chamberlain in FAA Aviation News, July/August 1999 to read the whole story. Again, if you doubt this requirement exists, all you need do is tell the next FAA Inspector who sees you flying that you don't have the empty weight/cg document in the plane.
 
Ron Levy said:
14 CFR 91.9 and 91.103, according to the FAA, make the "W" in AROW (or ARROW if you're flying internationally) a requirement.

Sorry, "the FAA" is not brother Chamberlain, unless he sports the title Chief Counsel after his name.

I can write an article about how I'm certificating an aircraft made out of an old cast iron bathtub pulled aloft by a half dozen swans, and that doesn't make it so.


Again, if you doubt this requirement exists, all you need do is tell the next FAA Inspector who sees you flying that you don't have the empty weight/cg document in the plane.

That is tantamount to going into the lion's den and shout that the lion doesn't have the guts to eat me. I'll leave the lion alone, (s)he will leave me alone, and until it gets settled by a court of law, you and your minions have absolutely nothing to say to me.
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.....


Jim
 
Look Ron, I'm not gonna look up some fifteen year old Aviation News Op-Ed article. There IS NO SUCH THING as an " official licensed empty weight document"

If you have a W&B document that is signed by an A&P or a Repair Station IT'S BECAUSE THEY DID SOMETHING TO YOUR AIRCRAFT. Not because there is a requirement to have some "official" paper signed by them.

If it's "official" what is the Form Number? Can I download it off the FAA website? Or are you saying there is no official structure to this "official" paper, it just has to be signed?

And please, don't come back with the standard POA escape clause "See how that goes over when you tell it to the inspector on your next ramp check"

This is all a bunch of Hooey....:rolleyes:
 
weirdjim said:
.....


Jim
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You've made it very hard to address your points by the way you posted, but to put it simply, Mr. Chamberlain prepared that article in consultation with the Chief Counsel's office merely as a means for pilots to understand how the FAA came to its position on this issue (I actually talked to him about that some years ago). If you really need a letter from an FAA Counsel on the point, you can either ask for an interpretation or just get caught without a properly signed W&B document in your plane, although the letter you get in the latter case will be a Notice of Proposed Certificate action, not just an interpretation.

For the rest of you out there, you can listen to Jim and Silvaire and maybe get hosed by the FAA if they catch you signing your own W&B documents or flying without at least a copy of the properly signed document, or you can listen to me and be 100% absolutely completely certain that you will not have any trouble with the FAA on this issue. Choose wisely.

-30-
 
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Silvaire said:
Look Ron, I'm not gonna look up some fifteen year old Aviation News Op-Ed article. There IS NO SUCH THING as an " official licensed empty weight document"

If you have a W&B document that is signed by an A&P or a Repair Station IT'S BECAUSE THEY DID SOMETHING TO YOUR AIRCRAFT. Not because there is a requirement to have some "official" paper signed by them.

If it's "official" what is the Form Number? Can I download it off the FAA website? Or are you saying there is no official structure to this "official" paper, it just has to be signed?

And please, don't come back with the standard POA escape clause "See how that goes over when you tell it to the inspector on your next ramp check"

This is all a bunch of Hooey....:rolleyes:
Click to expand...

You are correct on all points.
 
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