Who’s wrong, me or the AFH?

BillW

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BillW
Have I forgotten everything I learned about physics, or does figure 6-5 in the FAA Airplane Flying Handbook (see attached screen grab) show the bank angles for a circle about a point 90 degrees from where they should be? Shouldn’t the maximum bank angle be on the downwind side of the circle and the shallowest bank be on the upwind side of the circle? If not, why not?
 

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The maximum bank angle occurs when the airplane has the fastest groundspeed, thus is headed directly downwind. At 3 o'clock as per the drawing.
 
Please explain that to me. Why isn’t the maximum bank angle required when the airplane is crosswind, i.e., needing to turn more toward the wind? Is it a matter of anticipation?
 
Please explain that to me. Why isn’t the maximum bank angle required when the airplane is crosswind, i.e., needing to turn more toward the wind? Is it a matter of anticipation?

It's the relationship between groundspeed and radius of turn. To maintain a constant radius, the rate of turn must be the fastest when the groundspeed is fastest. The book probably explains it better than I can. The discussion starts at the beginning of the chapter and is not specific to this particular maneuver.
 
Yeah, I think I’m getting it. Because the wind is pushing you as you’re heading downwind, you have to start turning tighter at that point to avoid being carried too far downwind.
 
For bank angle, just ignore the crosswind component. Only the headwind or tailwind component makes a difference in the bank angle needed.
 
Yeah, as you’re heading downwind, you’re offering no resistance to the downwind component of the wind, so you have to turn tighter to stay on track. When you’re crosswind, you ARE offering resistance to the downwind component, so a lesser bank angle is sufficient.

I think my error was looking at it in a static vs. dynamic frame of reference.
 
Yeah, as you’re heading downwind, you’re offering no resistance to the downwind component of the wind, so you have to turn tighter to stay on track. When you’re crosswind, you ARE offering resistance to the downwind component, so a lesser bank angle is sufficient.

I think my error was looking at it in a static vs. dynamic frame of reference.
Not sure what you mean by "resistance." The wind is airmass. The airplane is in the airmass. It moves with the airmass, not "pushed" or "pulled" by it. Upwind, downwind, and crosswind are all references to the relationship of the wind to the ground.

If you did 360 degree turn under the hood with no navaids to show ground location you would find no change in airspeed or anything else based on being upwind, crosswind, or downwind. It's the desire to maintain a circle with "ground reference" which makes concepts of upwind, crosswind, and the associated bank angle changes important.

It is the old walking to the rear of a moving train analogy. You are walking in one direction with reference to the train. But you are moving in exactly the opposite direction with reference to the world.
 
Have I forgotten everything I learned about physics, or does figure 6-5 in the FAA Airplane Flying Handbook (see attached screen grab) show the bank angles for a circle about a point 90 degrees from where they should be? Shouldn’t the maximum bank angle be on the downwind side of the circle and the shallowest bank be on the upwind side of the circle? If not, why not?

I think you're right that there's a problem with the picture, but it's not what you think it is. They're showing the bank angles correctly, but they're labeling the "upwind" and "downwind" sides nonsensically. With their labeling, half the time you spend in the "upwind" part would be spent flying downwind, and vice versa.

It would make much more sense to call the left hand side "upwind" and the right hand side "downwind". That is, 90 degrees off how it is now, as you correctly suggested.
 
Yeah, as you’re heading downwind, you’re offering no resistance to the downwind component of the wind, so you have to turn tighter to stay on track. When you’re crosswind, you ARE offering resistance to the downwind component, so a lesser bank angle is sufficient.

I think my error was looking at it in a static vs. dynamic frame of reference.

The book doesn't say anything about resistance. :confused2: That's not how it works. Read the text starting on page 1 because the background information necessary to understand any GRM starts there. Read about the rectangular course and s-turns as well.

I think you're right that there's a problem with the picture, but it's not what you think it is. They're showing the bank angles correctly, but they're labeling the "upwind" and "downwind" sides nonsensically. With their labeling, half the time you spend in the "upwind" part would be spent flying downwind, and vice versa.

It would make much more sense to call the left hand side "upwind" and the right hand side "downwind". That is, 90 degrees off how it is now, as you correctly suggested.

"Upwind half of the circle" is exactly that - it is with respect to the circle, not the airplane. While the north and south sides are upwind and downwind, the east and west sides are tailwind and headwind. While it may be confusing, it is not incorrect, and I think there is a purpose behind labeling it like that -- to get the point across that the airplane is drifting away from the point any time it's on the south half and drifting toward it any time it's on the north half.
 
The book doesn't say anything about resistance. :confused2: That's not how it works. Read the text starting on page 1 because the background information necessary to understand any GRM starts there. Read about the rectangular course and s-turns as well.



"Upwind half of the circle" is exactly that - it is with respect to the circle, not the airplane. While the north and south sides are upwind and downwind, the east and west sides are tailwind and headwind. While it may be confusing, it is not incorrect, and I think there is a purpose behind labeling it like that -- to get the point across that the airplane is drifting away from the point any time it's on the south half and drifting toward it any time it's on the north half.

Fair enough. My issue is that it's inconsistent with the most common usage of those terms that students are used to (i.e. the pattern). By the standards they're using, the crosswind leg of the pattern should be called "upwind" and the base leg "downwind", since that's where they are with respect to the ground reference (the runway).
 
Resistance was a poor choice of words. What I was trying to say is that at that point there's no component of your velocity that is anything other than dead downwind, so that's the point of maximum ground speed (only true for a moment, of course, since you're turning). At any other point of the circle, one component of your velocity is crosswind (the x axis, looking at the figure) one way or the other.
 
Fair enough. My issue is that it's inconsistent with the most common usage of those terms that students are used to (i.e. the pattern). By the standards they're using, the crosswind leg of the pattern should be called "upwind" and the base leg "downwind", since that's where they are with respect to the ground reference (the runway).

Perhaps they should have used windward and leeward.
 
windward and leeward
Sometimes it is easier to picture oneself on a boat when thinking through some of these maneuvers and to get a good understanding of ground speed vs airspeed. The illustration in the book makes perfect sense if I picture myself in a small boat trying to turn around a buoy in a river.. you'll be making the most aggressive turn when you're going straight down with the current.. if you kept that aggressive turn constant, rather than shallow it out as the book describes, then you'd pretty much end up turning around, instead of making a nice circle
 
Resistance was a poor choice of words. What I was trying to say is that at that point there's no component of your velocity that is anything other than dead downwind, so that's the point of maximum ground speed (only true for a moment, of course, since you're turning). At any other point of the circle, one component of your velocity is crosswind (the x axis, looking at the figure) one way or the other.
I'm thinking a solid ground session on ground reference maneuvers and then doing the series in the air, including the rectangular course would help a lot. There really isn't any inconsistency between the pattern and the maneuvers. The traffic pattern is a rectangular course, being asked to do a 180 or 360 by ATC in the pattern is a turn around a point, and S-turns on final for spacing are, well, S-turns, although the circle and the S-turns are less extreme in the pattern.

I'm not sure why you think the legs of the pattern are different. Downwind is with the wind behind you , increasing your groundspeed, upwind is with the wind blowing opposite the direction of travel, decreasing your groundspeed, and a crosswind is a wind blowing perpendicular to the you direction of travel, requiring a crab to stay on course. What's different with turns about a point is your relationship to those components isn't static, because you are going around in a circle,but the relationships to your ground track are the same.
 
I'm not sure why you think the legs of the pattern are different. Downwind is with the wind behind you , increasing your groundspeed, upwind is with the wind blowing opposite the direction of travel, decreasing your groundspeed, and a crosswind is a wind blowing perpendicular to the you direction of travel, requiring a crab to stay on course. What's different with turns about a point is your relationship to those components isn't static, because you are going around in a circle,but the relationships to your ground track are the same.

I said absolutely nothing about the legs of the landing pattern. I was only talking about different points on the circle, and thinking about it on a graph with x and y axes.

I'm sure this will become clearer once I'm actually flying. So far, I'm only book-flying.
 
I said absolutely nothing about the legs of the landing pattern. I was only talking about different points on the circle, and thinking about it on a graph with x and y axes.

I'm sure this will become clearer once I'm actually flying. So far, I'm only book-flying.
Learning the terms the way they're used in aviation (downwind is when you are pointed with the wind, not a point on the circle or pattern, for example) helps a lot. As does actually getting in the airplane, like you noted.
 
I said absolutely nothing about the legs of the landing pattern. I was only talking about different points on the circle, and thinking about it on a graph with x and y axes.

I'm sure this will become clearer once I'm actually flying. So far, I'm only book-flying.
There's always this big discussion about whether to complete ground before flying. My opinion has always been doing both together gives context which makes both more relevant and understandable.
 
Learning the terms the way they're used in aviation (downwind is when you are pointed with the wind, not a point on the circle or pattern, for example) helps a lot. As does actually getting in the airplane, like you noted.

I'm not sure what's led you to believe I don't know or understand those terms. But on a circle, you are only going downwind for a very brief moment, and we're not talking about the downwind (or base, or final) legs of the pattern.
 
I'm not sure what's led you to believe I don't know or understand those terms. But on a circle, you are only going downwind for a very brief moment, and we're not talking about the downwind (or base, or final) legs of the pattern.
We'll, this post, for one.
 
There's always this big discussion about whether to complete ground before flying. My opinion has always been doing both together gives context which makes both more relevant and understandable.

Unfortunately, that's not an option right now. I'm also the sort of person who tends to research the hell out of things before I take action, anyway.
 
Perhaps this will help:

http://www.boldmethod.com/cfi-tools/turns-around-a-point/

I feel a turn around a point is to teach specific things and a way to recognize when the student is ready to land.

As a CFI it is my job to keep it from becoming a semantics discussion.

Without the aircraft to demonstrate; semantics may become a challenge.

Thanks, that does help! In particular, it makes clear the angle of the plane relative to the ground track. So it seems to me that the reason the downwind point is the point of greatest bank is that it's the point where you're making a transition from pointing to the outside of the ground track circle to pointing to the inside of the ground track circle.
 
We'll, this post, for one.
Well, then, I'm really not understanding what you meant by "downwind is when you are pointed with the wind". To me, when doing a circle about a point, that happens at exactly one point on the circle. To be clear, there's a downwind component of your velocity on one entire half of the circle, but you are not "pointed with the wind". Are you saying that in aviation, heading "downwind" means going at any angle further off the wind than 90 degrees? I guess that would liken it to sailing, where anything below a beam reach (perfectly crosswind) is going downwind, but going in the wind direction is "dead downwind".
 
Thanks, that does help! In particular, it makes clear the angle of the plane relative to the ground track. So it seems to me that the reason the downwind point is the point of greatest bank is that it's the point where you're making a transition from pointing to the outside of the ground track circle to pointing to the inside of the ground track circle.

In my experience a problem inexperienced pilots have is understanding that the nose may be pointed in a different direction than the aircraft is headed.

Getting back to basic physics go faster around a circle and it requires more centripetal force to maintain the radius.

More centripetal force requires more angle of bank.

In the animation he aircraft is going a steady 100kts true airspeed and the ground speed increases because of the 25kt tail wind so the angle of bank has to increase to maintain the .5 mile radius of the turn. Upwind the aircraft is 50kts slower so the bank can be less and still maintain the .5 mile radius.

I feel this will make more sense to you when you fly turns around a point and try to anticipate how the wind will affect your path over the ground and you attempt to compensate for the winds effect.
 
In my experience a problem inexperienced pilots have is understanding that the nose may be pointed in a different direction than the aircraft is headed.

That I have no problem with. I have experience of that from nautical navigation, college physics, and engineering mechanics. It's just getting the sum of vectors to be the desired course.

Getting back to basic physics go faster around a circle and it requires more centripetal force to maintain the radius.

More centripetal force requires more angle of bank.

Yay, physics! This makes sense to me.
 
That is the value I find in the animation.
I have the link saved for the clients who want to make it a semantics discussion.
In a practical sense if the aircraft is not doing what we want (in this case following the desired ground track) we make a change to get the desired result.
In an ideal world we anticipate what the aircraft control inputs should be and make small adjustments for reality.
This only comes from practice and an effort to understand.
 
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