Which direction for turns? VFR practice approach.

luvflyin said:
I'm wondering to about the Radio communication requirement for establishment of a Surface Area. We'd probably have to go back to when the Control Zone was invented, long before the cell phone and all of our other present day means of communication were considered. With the exception of the very few Airport Traffic Areas that weren't within Control Zones, Class D was simply a new name for what already existed. The term Class E Surface Area had to be invented to cover the Non Towered Control Zones and the extensions and other odd shapes.
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Is there any reason for the requirement that wouldn't also apply to uncontrolled fields in transition zones? No one is going to be flying in the G without a clearance into or coming out of the E anyway, at least not legally, and there's been at least one enforcement action against someone who tried.

And I know of one surface E field that no longer meets the requirement. When it did, the only "radio" communication with ATC on the ground was via a GCO - the kind that's really a half-duplex phone connection. But that facility has been OTS for over 10 years.
 
luvflyin said:
Nothing is forcing IFR aircraft to mix with VFR aircraft in uncontrolled airspace. There are many reasons to have higher personal minimums than the minimums on the Approach Plate. Not wanting to fly IFR in uncontrolled airspace is a perfectly good reason to raise your personal minimum to remain in controlled airspace.
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Then how do you take off or land? Or do you limit yourself to airports where the controlled airspace extends to the surface?
 
Ron Levy said:
Then how do you take off or land? Or do you limit yourself to airports where the controlled airspace extends to the surface?
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I think he's saying that if your minimums are high enough, you'll still be in controlled airspace when you break out and so there shouldn't be any VFR traffic in a position to butt heads with you, assuming they obey the cloud clearance rules. Doesn't mean you can't land, just that you'll be visual long enough to avoid any unpleasant surprises.

Though this brings up a question: if you're cleared for an approach where you'd have to circle to land on the runway in use, but break out well above both circling altitude and pattern altitude, do you still have to obey the circling restriction (in the case discussed above, can't CTL on the pattern side)? Or can you just join the pattern and land normally?
 
azure said:
I think he's saying that if your minimums are high enough, you'll still be in controlled airspace when you break out and so there shouldn't be any VFR traffic in a position to butt heads with you, assuming they obey the cloud clearance rules. Doesn't mean you can't land, just that you'll be visual long enough to avoid any unpleasant surprises.
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If you think the folks you'd run into in weather where you'd break out below 700 AGL wouldn't shave the cloud clearance rules, I have some beachfront property in Florida to sell you.

Though this brings up a question: if you're cleared for an approach where you'd have to circle to land on the runway in use, but break out well above both circling altitude and pattern altitude, do you still have to obey the circling restriction (in the case discussed above, can't CTL on the pattern side)? Or can you just join the pattern and land normally?
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Looking at the two letters discussed above, I would say if the weather is good enough for normal VFR pattern ops, you have to join the pattern rather than circle opposite traffic. But if you really need to know for sure, you'll have to address that specific question to the Chief Counsel.
 
Ron Levy said:
Then how do you take off or land? Or do you limit yourself to airports where the controlled airspace extends to the surface?
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My point was that nothing is forcing an IFR aircraft to mix with VFR aircraft in airspace where Clear of Clouds and 1 mile visibility minimums apply for VFR flight and the weather is such that it's less then 1000 and 3 down there. The actual application would be something like "I need at least a 1000 and 3 to feel comfortable with seeing and avoiding other traffic and will not continue flight int airspace where I don't have that." It could be different numbers, maybe 2 miles visibility is your personal minimum. Granted you would still be operating on an IFR clearance so still IFR traffic, I'm not trying to start a discussion on the difference between IFR/VFR vs IMC/VMC here. Granted it would limit the number of times you could actually get down and land. You would effectively be using the Approach more as a "let down" procedure to get "underneath."
 
luvflyin said:
My point was that nothing is forcing an IFR aircraft to mix with VFR aircraft in airspace where Clear of Clouds and 1 mile visibility minimums apply for VFR flight and the weather is such that it's less then 1000 and 3 down there. The actual application would be something like "I need at least a 1000 and 3 to feel comfortable with seeing and avoiding other traffic and will not continue flight int airspace where I don't have that." It could be different numbers, maybe 2 miles visibility is your personal minimum. Granted you would still be operating on an IFR clearance so still IFR traffic, I'm not trying to start a discussion on the difference between IFR/VFR vs IMC/VMC here. Granted it would limit the number of times you could actually get down and land. You would effectively be using the Approach more as a "let down" procedure to get "underneath."
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OK, got that. You just don't make IFR approaches to airports without controlled airspace to the surface when it's less than 1000-3. Considering that I've never heard of a case where an IFR aircraft in that situation ran into a VFR aircraft operating legally in the Class G over an airport below 700 AGL, I don't see it is enough of a risk to give up that much operational utility, but YMMV.
 
BLUF - It's a practice approach flown in VFR conditions. If there is no traffic, you can practice the IFR circling procedure in VFR conditions while announcing on the CTAF in case any traffic may be approaching the airport. In the case where there are other aircraft in the pattern flying the established VFR traffic pattern, then the only choice will be to break off the practice approach at pattern altitude and join the flow of traffic.
 
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