Which Cirrus?

A

asicer

Touchdown! Greaser!
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asicer
Let's say one day I bonked my head on the flaps of a 172 while doing the walk-around. When I came to, I found myself in the market for a Cirrus thanks to BasicMed (surely my friends and family would have my AME revoke my medical due to brain damage under the old rules).

Which engine/gen/year has the greatest bang for buck?
 
It really depends on your budget and needs. If you need FIKI that will be 2009 and later. If you need perspective avionics (G1000 based) it will be 2008 and later. If you want a turbo (TN or T) I'd recommend a G3 (2007 and later) for the bigger fuel tanks. If your primary objective is value, I'd suggest a late G2 naturally aspirated (ideally WAAS upgraded) is a great bang for the buck. My previous SR22 was a 2006 and was incredibly reliable and performed wonderfully. I upgraded to a faster, newer, FIKI G3 and it is a better match for me but it's almost twice the price and has much less useful load.
 
There is a really good buyers guide out there created by Jaime Steel of Steel aviation that will give you all the detail on the various iterations up until a couple of years ago. Would suggest you email her for it. I have it somewhere at home and would send to you but I'm on a weeklong trip without laptop.

Oh, and hope the head injury is healing well!
 
asicer said:
So you are telling me to get a Lycoming SR20 and then point me to Continental SR20 listings? I sense a disconnect here.
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No. Since none of us knows your mission or your budget the best we can really do is point you at the Cirrus model that's most equivalent to the Cessna 172. As with most products the cost will range given how far back you go. True there is a big new engine now for the SR20 for 2017 versus all previous models. But even if you cared about the new engine are you ready to buy new anyway?
 
citizen5000 said:
But even if you cared about the new engine are you ready to buy new anyway?
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I fly for fun, not business. Therefore, other than 4 seats I make my mission fit the plane, not the other way around.

I have the capability of buying any Cirrus. However, how much I spend has a direct effect on my future well-being. Buying the most expensive would create financial moderate to severe turbulence. Buying nothing would put me in a really good spot. Everything in between is a bazillion shades of gray.

Given that, all I'm left with is bang-for-buck. For each Cirrus, plot its capability on on the X axis and its price on the Y axis and then find the minima.
 
asicer said:
Given that, all I'm left with is bang-for-buck. For each Cirrus, plot its capability on on the X axis and its price on the Y axis and then find the minima.
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The sample of used planes for sale at any given moment in time is not infinite. And inside that set there are not widely varying valuations since the market will quickly converge on a price point for each plane based on the combined considerations of age, equipment, damage history, and seller motivation.

You sound like you are just looking for a good deal which is more predicated on finding a desperate seller and not so much a magical combination of elements.
 
If you wanted to pull the stock GNS430's and replace them with GTN's or the IFD's..... Do-able? Or is something on the aircraft design locking you into the 430's?

Can you replace the big Avidyne MFD with something else?
 
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Knock yourself back out and hope you wake up with more sense next time and get anything but a cirrus
 
I am curious why some people hate them so much? I get they're different, but what's at the top of the "I freaking hate it because..." list?
 
What do you need for payload/range ?
Do you need known icing ?
Do you want AC ?
Do you want to go high and gain some speed on longer trips ?
Do you have any firmly held religious beliefs about the merits of Continental turbo engines ?

The answers to those questions and more will determine which one is the 'best bang for the buck'.
 
weilke said:
Because they can't afford them and their girlfriend ran off with a guy who had a cirrus.
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Just shows how bad her taste in men is...:cool: :D
 
Tantalum said:
I am curious why some people hate them so much? I get they're different, but what's at the top of the "I freaking hate it because..." list?
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Because they are the vanilla Honda of the air.
 
weilke said:
What do you need for payload/range ?
Do you need known icing ?
Do you want to go high and gain some speed on longer trips ?
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4 seats and I'm good. For the rest, I'll fit the mission to the plane.
Do you want AC ?
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Since this doesn't add capability then no.
Do you have any firmly held religious beliefs about the merits of Continental turbo engines ?
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The head injury wiped any memory of that. :)
 
If you want to be able to fill 4 seats and still take something like 60gal of fuel, you need to stay away from turbo models with AC and de-ice. From my rooting around, to get payload, you have pretty much two options:
- early normally aspirated G3 models without AC
- G5 models.
 
My first plane was a SR20. Great little plane but as we call it in the Cirrus world it's UPDT (Under Power Death Trap). The ceiling is 17,5 but trust me you wont get it up that high. Not that you would need to but no way you will get one that high. I had mine at 11.5 and that was a struggle. Still, though, a great plane.

But if you need 4 seats get the SR22. I sold my 20 and bought a 22, sold it and now shopping for another 22 so I am scanning Controller and BS all the time. One problem I see in the Cirrus sales world right now is the prices are all over the map!! One gent has a 2004 with R9 for sale and he wants about 255K. IMO he will never get that much. In 2015 I bought my 2004 and it had A/C, R9, and 400 SMOH and I got it for 230K. If you don't care about upgrades and are cool with the basic Avidyne 2 screen setup and 2 430's you can spend about 170 - 200K and get a fantastic bird.

If you want a 6 pack you will spend 140 - 170 - they are holding some value because at that price range there are more buyers that simply can afford. Be careful with the following birds online for sale: N941SE - this was in a fire, it sat on the market for a long time and someone bought it. It is now for sale again and they are not mentioning the fire. N152WK. The owner had the logs stolen (but does have electronic). Someone in Florida bought it for 140K (not a bad deal) and is trying to flip it at 188k. But that plane lived outside in a tie down most of its life but the "new owner" states "always hangared".

I do a lot of research so ping me if you have any questions.
 
AggieMike88 said:
If you wanted to pull the stock GNS430's and replace them with GTN's or the IFD's..... Do-able? Or is something on the aircraft design locking you into the 430's?

Can you replace the big Avidyne MFD with something else?
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Yes, plenty of people have added replaced the 430s with GTNs or IFDs. It's a common upgrade. In terms of MFD replacement, technically you don't need the MFD at all (at least for the installations with separate engine gauges) so there are a few creative options out there (iPads and such) but those are very rare. More common is for people to upgrade to Avidyne's R9 system (PFD, AP, center stack and MFD) or put aspens in lieu of the six pack on older pre-PFD airplanes.
 
I think for many people here the question is academic. It's like asking the Corolla driver which model of Jaguar gives the biggest bang for the buck.
 
Don't tell @SixPapaCharlie (I guess I just did) but when I was buying I came down to the RV-6A or an early SR-20. I went with the RV because I could buy it all cash, the maintenance is lower, and I have the club planes when I need more seating.

I like the Cirrus. And I really like poking fun at their pilots. :)
 
I've always found the SR22 attractive by the numbers... price for the age /avionics/speed/fuel burn/payload. The idea of a chute is also quite appealing.

But between being made in china, the sidestick/cockpit layout, the one I've actually been in having all the interior falling apart, the doors that pop open, etc it just rubs me the wrong way that's just hard to quite define. I don't begrudge anyone wanting to buy one because it is a very good buy for the price/performance you get... I just have a hard time building interest for them.
 
cowman said:
I've always found the SR22 attractive by the numbers... price for the age /avionics/speed/fuel burn/payload. The idea of a chute is also quite appealing.

But between being made in china, the sidestick/cockpit layout, the one I've actually been in having all the interior falling apart, the doors that pop open, etc it just rubs me the wrong way that's just hard to quite define. I don't begrudge anyone wanting to buy one because it is a very good buy for the price/performance you get... I just have a hard time building interest for them.
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I don't think any part of a Cirrus is made in China.
Cirrus is owned by a US corporation that is in turn owned by the Chinese government.
 
cowman said:
between being made in china, the sidestick/cockpit layout, the one I've actually been in having all the interior falling apart, the doors that pop open
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Cirrus is made in Diluth, MN and North Dakota not China (even all their CnC machines and curing ovens are made in the USA). The sidestick/cockpit layout is state of the art and allows for better viewing and access to all aircraft controls. Cirrus interiors rival high end luxury cars in both quality and finishes. The doors do not pop open unless, like any aircraft, they are not properly latched.
 
citizen5000 said:
Cirrus is made in Diluth, MN and North Dakota not China (even all their CnC machines and curing ovens are made in the USA). The sidestick/cockpit layout is state of the art and allows for better viewing and access to all aircraft controls. Cirrus interiors rival high end luxury cars in both quality and finishes. The doors do not pop open unless, like any aircraft, they are not properly latched.
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Some of the quality criticisms apply to G1 models.
 
I've heard the seats are hard as a rock.
 
paflyer said:
I've heard the seats are hard as a rock.
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There thousands of them out there why don't you guys go sit in one and test your guesses? The seats are made to absorb the impact of a chute pull, so are the gear. They are more like a leather bucket seat in a Mercedes than anything you find in a Piper, Cessna, Bonanza or Mooney.
 
I personally found the seats far more comfortable and "cradling" than any of the Pipers and Cessnas I've sat in, which felt more like park benches

The interiors I've sat in also seem to have a very solid fit and finish, wasn't just fabric with cheap plastic fasteners stuck to the frame

The only doors I've seen "pop open" personally are on older 172's when shutting them from the outside

For all the folks out there who have a visceral hatred for them and assume a stall results in an unrecoverable death spin I recommend going up in one and doing some flying. The stalls are benign, any coordinated pilot can hold the thing in a stall just fine, even as a sub 100hr pilot a few years ago I had no issues. Landings are a little faster over the numbers but nothing otherwise unconventional. The glass integration even with the older 430s is seamless, etc. The cabin is wide and comfortable, and Ifound the sidestick far more natural than conventional yokes. In my experience it also rides turbulence better, seems more sure footed and doesn't wobble around, etc
 
cowman said:
But between being made in china, the sidestick/cockpit layout, the one I've actually been in having all the interior falling apart, the doors that pop open, etc...
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Point by point...

1) As stated, not made in China.

2) No accounting for taste, but the sidestick is a nice arrangement. I think near ideal, but YMMV.

3) The plastic interior parts on my 2003 were pretty chintzy and misaligned. Possibly improved over the last 14 years, but I can't say for sure.

4) Doors popping open was endemic to the G1 models. The latches had to be adjusted just so. I had doors pop on mine at least twice. Later models were improved, but continued to have some issues.
 
Tantalum said:
The stalls are benign...
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For the most part, I agree.

But it's only fair to warn there have been a fair number of stall/spin accidents in the pattern, so a Cirrus pilot should be aware that at the edges of the envelope things can go from benign to scary, even fatal, in a heartbeat.

It's hypothesized that the same split wing planform that leads to benign characteristics 99.9% of the time also makes thing hairier if and when it does let go.

Here's a video from 7 years ago that many may have seen before, but worth a few moments of your time in case you haven't:


Nothing to scare a competent pilot away, but beware complacency.
 
FastEddieB said:
Here's a video from 7 years ago that many may have seen before, but worth a few moments of your time in case you haven't:


Nothing to scare a competent pilot away, but beware complacency.
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Yanking and banking will do it every time. As captain 5-bars points out in the narrative, there is nothing unique about what the plane did. You do a snap-roll entry close to the ground, you'll get a snap-roll.
 
Sundancer said:
I don't think they are just the same.
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I don't think skiers and snowboarders are the same nor are sailers v power boaters.. but the RV guy is much closer to the Cirrus guy than the other analogies. In my income and "time available to fly" bracket I'm renting, and after years of ripped up Pipers and Archers the extra money per hour to me is worth it for a Cirrus for a comfortable and relatively simple, fast plane for local trips. If time and money permitted I would be open to building an experimental down the line.
 
RudyP said:
There is a really good buyers guide out there created by Jaime Steel of Steel aviation that will give you all the detail on the various iterations up until a couple of years ago. Would suggest you email her for it. I have it somewhere at home and would send to you but I'm on a weeklong trip without laptop.

Oh, and hope the head injury is healing well!
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Emailed her and got the link to her PDF: http://www.steelaviation.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/cirrus-history.pdf
 
AggieMike88 said:
Emailed her and got the link to her PDF: http://www.steelaviation.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/cirrus-history.pdf
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The Steel pdf is great for pre 2015 models. In the last three years Cirrus added 60/40 seats, Beringer-Aero brakes, made the GFC700 A/P standard, and added ADS-B and a digital backup set and increased the weight of the SR22T and a larger rocket/chute. They also increased the max flap speeds to 150kt first notch, 110kts full. Last year they changed the doors completely and added a key fob electric door lock, And this year they upgraded the G1000 to the NXi panel.
 
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