Which airplane to replace a Bonanza F33A?

gkainz

gkainz

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Greg Kainz
Per our club SOP, we are considering replacing our 1980 Bonanza F33A (6400 TT, 960 TSOH) in the near(?) future.

Our club practice for the last 20-30 years has been to buy an airplane with ~1000 TT on original engine, fly until O/H, replace with factory reman or overhauled engine, fly to 60-70% TBO and then sell/replace.

We've deviated from that in the last 5 years or so due to economics - reduced market value of our aircraft and available, suitable replacement aircraft.

So, looking for suggestions on a replacement comparable to the Bonanza, to fit into a club that also owns an '88 Piper Dakota (PA28-236) and an 88 Saratoga SP (PA32R).

We want to consider uniformity of our fleet (altho the Bonanza already threw that out the window), utility, speed, etc ... oh, and importantly - we do as much owner maintenance as legally possible, and 2 or 3 of our lead wrenches know Piper/Beech best. Doesn't mean old dogs can't learn new tricks, though. :)

Given a SWAG estimate purchase price in the low to mid $200k, what would you suggest and why?

Thanks!
Greg
 
Unless the F-33A is a rotten POS, or everybody in the club is tired of it, I would keep it especially with your budget limitation. If you want to spend some money, you can put a full glass panel in it and still have money aside toward another new engine.

The other potential if everyone is tired of it or it's rotten is get a big bore Mooney.
 
The Bo is far far from rotten. It's in great shape, just well over our club's "typical" airframe hours. However, the GA environment is nothing like it used to be, which is why we bent the SOP so far. It may need to be just completely re-evaluated and re-written.

Nobody's tired of it, and it's the most popular plane in the club. We currently have Garmin 430W in all 3, and Aspens in the Bo and Saratoga. Since we "try" to maintain similar a/c, full glass in the Bo would/could/should argue for full glass in the other two.

Mooney 201 or Ovation (probably over budget?) has been suggested.

The discussion has just started in earnest, but so far we've written down:
Beech A36
Beech F33A
Cessna 182
Cessna 210
Cirrus SR-22
Columbia-300
Commander 115
Mooney 201/M20R

build our own RV-something (somewhat tongue-in-cheek on that one)
 
With those givens, I restate that keeping the F-33A is the best option. Airframe hours mean nothing on a Bonanza series plane because there are no life limited components. As long as the condition is good there is no cost exponent to time, nor is there any greater depreciation to attach, or appreciation to be had by buying a newer airframe while simultaneously adding in risk of 'unknown' issues plus the cost of upgrades already done to the current one to bring it up to spec while losing money on the upgrades done to the one being sold.

It just makes no sense to me to arbitrarily rid yourselves of a good condition airplane, the one everyone likes most, just because of an SOP that no longer makes sense in today's market dynamics.the only thing I see coming out of following this SOP is a waste of money. Now if y'all need to waste some money, fine, but I can think of a lot better ways to do it than replacing a perfectly good airframe. You could add a perfectly good glass panel 310 that uses a 430w.:D
 
Devil you know, vs devil you don't.

If you like your current airplane, you can keep your plane, period.
 
I don't see the mission requirements. What are they?

  • Payload
  • Seats
  • Baggage volume
  • Speed
  • Cost
  • Range
  • etc
There are strong advantages in a club setting for maximum fleet commonality, and the mission capabilities of a F33A and a PA32R are pretty close, other than the Bonanza being a bit faster and the 'Toga being a bit better for short/unpaved runways. If the capabilities of the existing F33A are what you want, getting another Saratoga SP with as close to identical avionics as possible could make a lot of sense.
 
What club is this? Is this a non-profit or for-profit club?
 
The club obviously needs a turbo Dakota with Aspen and 430w to match the other fleet aircraft...I know where you can get a freshly topped one for way less than 200k...
 
If you MUST get a new plane, I'd look for an A-36 with air conditioning and an updated panel, might even squeak into a B36TC and have a real travel machine on your hands.

Otherwise, why not go for a light twin - Duchess, Seminole?

'Gimp
 
I agree with Henning, too. I see no reason to sell it off just based on air frame hours. However, one thought in a few minds is that air frame hours continue to drive the value down rapidly. I am not sure the current market model supports that, but I haven't done the research, either.

docmirror - yeah, I agree (but like the other reference to your quip - certain details may be out of my control!)

Ron - with 45 members, the mission profile could be all over the board. All 3 planes fit my mission profile (not "fit well" but suffice), with my deciding factor being "which one is available" (I suck at long term planning)

Dans2992 - club link is in my sig ... www.tenhiflyers.com ... a non-profit, ownership club

Clark - wanna hear some collective sucking of breath sounds? Just whisper "turbo" in our club and half the members gasp and see dollar signs racing past their eyes. They're sceert ta death of the compressor :)
 
Does the current plane have the spar crack mitigation done?

If not, I would pay to do that, get GAMIs and power on through.

Whatev
 
gkainz said:
Clark - wanna hear some collective sucking of breath sounds? Just whisper "turbo" in our club and half the members gasp and see dollar signs racing past their eyes. They're sceert ta death of the compressor :)
Click to expand...

A little fear is good for'em! Then again, maybe they've seen the bill for the top job that was just done...
 
I can't see any logic in getting rid of the most popular plane in your club! I'm assuming it is well-maintained and relatively squawk-free, and whatever you get to replace it will likely have a lot of catch-up stuff that will hurt dispatch reliability. Henning makes great points.

If you're hell-bent on getting rid of it, I would simply put it to a vote amongst the membership. We did that when I was involved with a big club in college.

Regarding your list, I would only consider an A36 or maybe a 210 as an upgrade, although not substantial. An Ovation would be very nice too, but might not carry as many folks potentially as the Bonanza or 210 options. Doubt there is a Columbia in your budget. SR-22 maybe, but I think it would be a downgrade compared to a Bo. No thanks to the Commander or 182...the Dakota already covers that mission.

An alternative might be to take the $200k budget and "downgrade" to a Mooney 201 and add a twin. I'd love to have access to a twin in a club environment, but I have no desire to own one on my own. You can grab a 310 or B55 Baron for so little money these days that I keep thinking about it (and then slap myself).

I think your first step would be to put it to a vote. I'd vote to punt either of the Pipers before the Bonanza. :p
 
An aside, this club was established in the late 1950's, and incorporated in 1961 ... it's been around a LONG time! A few of them members have been in the club for almost as long as it's been around.

The logic of the SOP has allowed the club to continue to fly nice airplanes, and upgrade regularly. At what point (total airframe hours) does the airplane devalue so much that it's of little resale value and therefore does not add much to the upgrade process?

Twins, I believe, are pretty much off the table for discussion, but perhaps because of ignorance ... how much more would a twin add to total insurance cost?

I have no idea how many of our current members are already ME rated, but I would SWAG maybe half?

Great input, all! Thanks!
 
not only is the F33 the best option you list, it is also the devil you know as opposed to taking on a new "project"
 
AcroGimp said:
Fine, Turbo-Seminole, B55TC, B58TC.

'Gimp
Click to expand...

Western Air Flight Academy used to fly a Duchess out of BJC. One instructor used to shut down one engine in flight and then almost always couldn't get it re-lit. Fortunately there are a lot of airports to chose from in the training areas north of BJC...
 
So the next step up from the Saratoga would be a nice Malibu. A couple flying clubs out in CA had one in the past.
 
kmead said:
So the next step up from the Saratoga would be a nice Malibu. A couple flying clubs out in CA had one in the past.
Click to expand...

Plus One Flyers still has one I believe, at a pretty fair rate, less than a SR22 IIRC.
 
Henning said:
Plus One Flyers still has one I believe, at a pretty fair rate, less than a SR22 IIRC.
Click to expand...

Close, but a little higher. $299/hr for the Malibu versus $285 for the SR-22s.

I almost got checked out in the Malibu, until I realized that I could haul a lot more for a lot cheaper in the 210/PA32 and the speed didn't help that much for the distances we were traveling.
 
gkainz said:
The logic of the SOP has allowed the club to continue to fly nice airplanes, and upgrade regularly. At what point (total airframe hours) does the airplane devalue so much that it's of little resale value and therefore does not add much to the upgrade process?

Twins, I believe, are pretty much off the table for discussion, but perhaps because of ignorance ... how much more would a twin add to total insurance cost?

I have no idea how many of our current members are already ME rated, but I would SWAG maybe half?

Great input, all! Thanks!
Click to expand...

Well, if you start shopping you're not going to find a lot of NEWER planes out there to choose from, especially at the budget you're proposing IMO. The SOP has worked well I imagine over the last 50 years because there has always been newer inventory to choose from in quantity...well...your current fleet is already younger than the vast majority of GA planes. Many folks looking to upgrade would look for planes like you already have!

I'm of the opinion that TT doesn't matter for the typical GA plane so long as the maintenance is good. Replace the bits that wear out. Update the panels. We typically don't see fatigue cracking of structure with our planes. You're not in a corrosive environment, so you got that in your corner.

I still think the devil you know as others have pointed out is superior to whatever the next one might be. In this case it is the most popular plane in the club, so any change might backfire and end up with a pig that doesn't get flown as much and thus cost the club more.

You could talk to your insurance broker about possible scenarios with a twin... it might be doable. The hull values are likely less than any of your current fleet. :) If I were a member that is what I would want.
 
Fearless Tower said:
Close, but a little higher. $299/hr for the Malibu versus $285 for the SR-22s.

I almost got checked out in the Malibu, until I realized that I could haul a lot more for a lot cheaper in the 210/PA32 and the speed didn't help that much for the distances we were traveling.
Click to expand...

They upped the price on it, last time I checked in it was $265 IIRC.
 
KSMooniac said:
We typically don't see fatigue cracking of structure with our planes.
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Not to pick nits, but I'm pretty sure this plane is a member of this:

http://bonanza.org/documents/Spar Web ADs Overview.pdf

It can be serious. Some of the planes have had cracking in the spar web. The doubler plate is a difficult and costly solution. However, when it's done, the AD is eliminated and the value of the plane goes up.
 
docmirror said:
Not to pick nits, but I'm pretty sure this plane is a member of this:

http://bonanza.org/documents/Spar Web ADs Overview.pdf

It can be serious. Some of the planes have had cracking in the spar web. The doubler plate is a difficult and costly solution. However, when it's done, the AD is eliminated and the value of the plane goes up.
Click to expand...

Depends on what year it is. IIRC the 83 and later models are unaffected.
 
That's right. F33A is exempt. So, even better reason to keep the plane. Forget my worries about the spar AD.
 
If people are happy with the Bo, keep it. Buying airplanes is a huge unknown -- you all know the plane and know it's maintained. That SOP makes no sense, don't get rid of a good airplane for an unknown one for no actual reason.
 
gkainz said:
The Bo is far far from rotten. It's in great shape, just well over our club's "typical" airframe hours.
Click to expand...

What's that mean? My feeling is that once it goes past 8,000 hours it might be time to move on, but until then, if you're happy with the plane, keep on going with it!

Mooney 201 or Ovation (probably over budget?) has been suggested.
Click to expand...

I doubt the Ovation would be over your budget. I'm selling an Ovation with about 1450 original hours on it for far enough under your budget to put an Aspen in and still come out ahead.

As for the other types you listed - Well, I doubt your members (who appear to love the Bo) would really like to go slower. 182? Naaah. Great airplane, but not something I'd replace a Bo with.
 
Henning said:
Unless the F-33A is a rotten POS, or everybody in the club is tired of it, I would keep it especially with your budget limitation. If you want to spend some money, you can put a full glass panel in it and still have money aside toward another new engine.

The other potential if everyone is tired of it or it's rotten is get a big bore Mooney.
Click to expand...

I'm with Henning. The Debonair is a pleasure to fly, and if you have $200k, you could drop a new engine in, redo the interior and panel, and maybe even put some new speed mods on it, though the Deb is already fast for what it is.
 
What do the members want ?
 
I would stay with the Bo ,and do a major upgrade to the panel. 6000 hrs wouldn't scare me. Unless you have hidden corrosion.
 
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