Which Airplane Has The Right Of Way?

Which airplane has the right of way?

  • Blue

  • Orange

Results are only viewable after voting.
EdFred said:
I *AM* saying it is in violation of 91.126 and it should be gotten rid of. It's an opposite direction turn. How is a right turn a left turn? Plus anyone on downwind now has to vacate the pattern by turning.....RIGHT... to avoid the airplane on 45. 91.113
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What are you smoking? What reg says the guy on downwind has to vacate by turning right? they're not approaching head-on, and he's not overtaking the guy on the 45.

Also, if you're going to claim the regs are ridiculous, use the actual verbiage of the reg...there's nothing that says "no right turns in the vicinity".
 
midwestpa24 said:
How about instead of everyone insisting on using their right of way, we all be civil and courteous to each other? My sailboat has right of way over a large tanker ship, but I'm not about to try to affirm that on the high seas.

I have often yielded right of way to others even though I technically had right of way. I also will stop and hold the door open for a person walking up behind me going into a building. Its just courtesy.
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Thank you.

Here's a poll: which pilot ends up dead if they demand the other avoids them due to a conflict of regulations? Blue? Orange?

And what do you get when you mix blue and orange: brown, which is poetic considering some arguments.
 
MauleSkinner said:
What are you smoking? What reg says the guy on downwind has to vacate by turning right? they're not approaching head-on, and he's not overtaking the guy on the 45.

Also, if you're going to claim the regs are ridiculous, use the actual verbiage of the reg...there's nothing that says "no right turns in the vicinity".
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91.126
(a) General. Unless otherwise authorized or required, each person operating an aircraft on or in the vicinity of an airport in a Class G airspace area must comply with the requirements of this section.

(b) Direction of turns. When approaching to land at an airport without an operating control tower in Class G airspace—

(1) Each pilot of an airplane must make all turns of that airplane to the left unless the airport displays approved light signals or visual markings indicating that turns should be made to the right, in which case the pilot must make all turns to the right; and

91.113
(b) General. When weather conditions permit, regardless of whether an operation is conducted under instrument flight rules or visual flight rules, vigilance shall be maintained by each person operating an aircraft so as to see and avoid other aircraft. When a rule of this section gives another aircraft the right-of-way, the pilot shall give way to that aircraft and may not pass over, under, or ahead of it unless well clear.

Both planes are approaching to land, so 91.126 applies.

Blue can't go in front of, above, or below orange. Only one option left according to 91.113 That requires a right turn, which is in violation of 91.126. Unless he spins a left turn over the runway and into departing traffic.
 
If the pilots in the example had been paying attention the scenario wouldn't happen. The moral of the story? Pay attention.
 
EdFred said:
91.126
(a) General. Unless otherwise authorized or required, each person operating an aircraft on or in the vicinity of an airport in a Class G airspace area must comply with the requirements of this section.

(b) Direction of turns. When approaching to land at an airport without an operating control tower in Class G airspace—

(1) Each pilot of an airplane must make all turns of that airplane to the left unless the airport displays approved light signals or visual markings indicating that turns should be made to the right, in which case the pilot must make all turns to the right; and

91.113
(b) General. When weather conditions permit, regardless of whether an operation is conducted under instrument flight rules or visual flight rules, vigilance shall be maintained by each person operating an aircraft so as to see and avoid other aircraft. When a rule of this section gives another aircraft the right-of-way, the pilot shall give way to that aircraft and may not pass over, under, or ahead of it unless well clear.

Both planes are approaching to land, so 91.126 applies.

Blue can't go in front of, above, or below orange. Only one option left according to 91.113 That requires a right turn, which is in violation of 91.126. Unless he spins a left turn over the runway and into departing traffic.
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You're cherry picking. We don't just fly under the law, but also Counsel opinion, court rulings, etc. The FAA has already settled this argument, you just don't like the FAA answer.
 
Weekend Warrior said:
You're cherry picking. We don't just fly under the law, but also Counsel opinion, court rulings, etc. The FAA has already settled this argument, you just don't like the FAA answer.
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Actually if you read the opinion THEY misquoted 91.126 in defense of their inane suggestion of the 45. Of course the dumbass who signed it is also the same one that says reimbursement for flight expenses related to business travel requires a commercial certificate.

I'm not the one cherry picking. The FAA is.
 
EdFred said:
Actually if you read the opinion THEY misquoted 91.126 in defense of their inane suggestion of the 45. Of course the dumbass who signed it is also the same one that says reimbursement for flight expenses requires a commercial certificate.
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Kinda proving my point.
 
EdFred said:
Neither airplane is in distress, both are at the same altitude, they will converge based on airspeed, etc...
RightofWay.gif


Please provide your basis as to why the airplane you chose has the right of way, and what action the airplane that is to give way should do.
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The Bonanza, unless the other airplane is a Cirrus.
 
Weekend Warrior said:
Kinda proving my point.
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Ok so we agree the FAA doesn't know their ass from a hole in the ground and also doesn't know how to read and correctly apply their own regulations.

If you're going to make exceptions to regulations write them as regulations.
 
The one that said "any traffic in the pattern please advise"? :D

Or maybe the one that did the overhead break....
 
Bill Jennings said:
How I take it:

  1. If you're on the preferred 45* entry, you must yield to traffic on the downwind. Full stop.
  2. If you're on the alternate 45* entry, not only must you yield to traffic on the downwind, you also must yield to traffic on the preferred 45* entry.
Is it really more complex than this???
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That's how I interpret the notes, except the depiction of the alternate entry looks to me like a midfield-crosswind entry, not an alternate-45* entry.
 
EdFred said:
Neither airplane is in distress, both are at the same altitude, they will converge based on airspeed, etc...
RightofWay.gif


Please provide your basis as to why the airplane you chose has the right of way, and what action the airplane that is to give way should do.
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Oops, didn't realize there was a diagram when I voted. Red right fright. Orange has the ROW.
 
Stewartb said:
If the pilots in the example had been paying attention the scenario wouldn't happen. The moral of the story? Pay attention.
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I AM the blue pilot in the scenario, I was paying attention, and did have to break off to the right because the orange plane made only one call as she got within a mile or so of the field. I had been making calls since 10 miles out announcing my intentions to enter on a left downwind at tpa by the typical left crosswind/downind corner. She either ignored my calls or didn't understand my location. I saw her on the fishfinder 5 miles out, so a situation never developed... I jist broke off to the right when it became obvious she wasn't going to alter her course and we were on course to occupy the same space.
I appreciate Ed posting this thread. I was curious about this myself.
 
Well, I know my opinion doesn't count since I am not a pilot.....YET.
But it would make the most sense to me that the plane that is already IN the pattern (Blue) would have priority (or ROW) over a plane that has not even entered the pattern yet.
I say that because if the plane is already in the pattern, they have already begun to lower gear, flaps, mixture and so on in PREP for the landing, the plane not in the landing has not begun that yet.
And I guess the final determination would be if I thought the "other" plane driver had a bigger firearm than me, LOL
But like I said, I ain't a pilot, I just play one in my dreams!!!
 
PtownDreamer said:
But it would make the most sense to me that the plane that is already IN the pattern (Blue) would have priority (or ROW) over a plane that has not even entered the pattern yet.
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According to the AIM (as has been pointed out), that is correct.
According to the FAA regulations, that is not correct.

Whichever way you choose, you are wrong.
 
When in doubt, fall back upon 91.3:

(a) The pilot in command of an aircraft is directly responsible for, and is the final authority as to, the operation of that aircraft.​

EACH pilot, blue AND orange, is responsible for the safety of his craft, and if either one has any doubt about maintaining safe separation, he is obligated to maneuver as necessary to avoid collision regardless of arguments about right-of-way and preferred pattern entries. In this example, I would not be surprised to see both pilots maneuver to avoid. Certainly it would be foolish for either pilot to continue expecting the other plane to avoid him right up to the point of impact.
 
Half Fast said:
When in doubt, fall back upon 91.3:

(a) The pilot in command of an aircraft is directly responsible for, and is the final authority as to, the operation of that aircraft.​

EACH pilot, blue AND orange, is responsible for the safety of his craft, and if either one has any doubt about maintaining safe separation, he is obligated to maneuver as necessary to avoid collision regardless of arguments about right-of-way and preferred pattern entries. In this example, I would not be surprised to see both pilots maneuver to avoid. Certainly it would be foolish for either pilot to continue expecting the other plane to avoid him right up to the point of impact.
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Egg Zachary.
 
With regards to right turns, I’ve found at least three Chief counsel opinions which state that right turns into the pattern are fine because they are how we do it. One would find it very difficult to enter the traffic pattern from the 45 without making a right turn. The most recent (Murphy 2015) states:

In your letter, you identify a figure in the FAA's Aeronautical Information Manual (fig. 4-3-2) depicting "a right turn as an acceptable entry to the downwind leg of the traffic pattern." You ask whether it is "possible for a pilot [to] follow tllis FAA guidance without deviating" from the regulations. We address substantially similar questions in two prior legal interpretations: a June 20, 2014, interpretation to Mr. Jolm Krug, and a May 9, 2011, interpretation to Mr. Mitchell Gossman. Rather than reanswer the question here, we have attached our prior interpretations for your convenience.
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This is the equivalent of a Chief Counsel smack down to say “enough already, stop asking stupid questions.” The right turn question is unequivocally answered in the Gossman opinion. Your personal views on McPherson are not relevant.

Additionally, many of the letters state that the FAA does not regulate pattern entry.

Murphy (2015) (refers to)
Krug (2014)
Gossman (2011)

As to who has right of way, my answer is usually the other guy. Downwind yields to traffic on the right, there is no “merge” clause anywhere. But right of way rules should never be used to justify unsafe operations.
 
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Yeah, those letters are just the FAA refusing to admit they made a mistake and doubling down because they won't admit they were wrong in their initial suggestion. Then they go one further and say yeah the plane on the left has the right of way even though the regulations say otherwise. They should all be shot.
 
Half Fast said:
In this example, I would not be surprised to see both pilots maneuver to avoid.
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Yesterday, in the grocery store, I had a head on encounter with another shopper. I maneuvered to the right, she maneuvered to the left - still head on. I went left, she went right, rinse and repeat.
It was funny.
In the pattern entry example, it would not be funny if each pilot correctly (based on FAA documentation) assumed the other had the right of way (regulation: Pilot on 45, AIM: Pilot on downwind) and tried to maneuver to go behind the other. Not funny at all.
That's why rules for "right of way" were invented. To provide clear expectations and prevent collisions. It doesn't work when the regulatory agency contradicts itself.
 
a
bflynn said:
With regards to right turns, I’ve found at least three Chief counsel opinions which state that right turns into the pattern are fine because they are how we do it. One would find it very difficult to enter the traffic pattern from the 45 without making a right turn. The most recent (Murphy 2015) states:



This is the equivalent of a Chief Counsel smack down to say “enough already, stop asking stupid questions.” The right turn question is unequivocally answered in the Gossman opinion. Your personal views on McPherson are not relevant.

Additionally, many of the letters state that the FAA does not regulate pattern entry.

Murphy (2015) (refers to)
Krug (2014)
Gossman (2011)

As to who has right of way, my answer is usually the other guy. Downwind yields to traffic on the right, there is no “merge” clause anywhere. But right of way rules should never be used to justify unsafe operations.
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If you have the right of way, you are the stand on vessel and should maintain your course, be predictable, give the give way vessel time to maneuver. This assumes you saw the conflicting aircraft in time and he sees you. If it starts looking like it is going to be unsafe, then maneuver.
 
I've always thought in the situation where an aircraft is entering the pattern on the 45 and an aircraft is already in the pattern on the downwind, that the aircraft in the pattern first has the right of way. Are yowze guys telling me this is wrong?
 
PaulS said:
I've always thought in the situation where an aircraft is entering the pattern on the 45 and an aircraft is already in the pattern on the downwind, that the aircraft in the pattern first has the right of way. Are yowze guys telling me this is wrong?
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The FAA contradicts itself, so the answer is, "Nobody knows."
 
EdFred said:
Yeah, those letters are just the FAA refusing to admit they made a mistake and doubling down because they won't admit they were wrong in their initial suggestion. Then they go one further and say yeah the plane on the left has the right of way even though the regulations say otherwise. They should all be shot.
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Any particular letter?
 
bflynn said:
Any particular letter?
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Every single one that says go ahead and make right turns in the pattern even though the regs say left turns. But then they rule making a right turn to final results in certificate action.
 
My opinion and based on the revised picture with the runway:

Blue has the right of way since he is already established in the downwind. Orange needs to pay attention (provided that blue has announced his intentions) and enter the downwind behind blue. This has happened in a real scenario in which the pilot of a certain Lance (blue) was frightened momentarily by a certain Cherokee (orange) but quickly realized that orange was paying attention and announced the entry into said pattern to follow blue.

blue - @Rgbeard
orange - <---that guy
 
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PaulS said:
I've always thought in the situation where an aircraft is entering the pattern on the 45 and an aircraft is already in the pattern on the downwind, that the aircraft in the pattern first has the right of way. Are yowze guys telling me this is wrong?
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According to the regulations, you are wrong. According to the AIM you are right.
 
Gee, wouldn't it be nice if airplanes could be equipped with some sort of device that would let pilots communicate with each other to sort these things out? Maybe someone could invent a device sorta like a telephone, except without wires.
 
Orange and Blue mixed together makes brown.

Red and blue mixed together makes purple.

Purple is the color that implies royalty. It implies wealth, luxury, extravagance and sophistication.

Therefore the purple plane gets the right of way....
 
Zeldman said:
Orange and Blue mixed together makes brown.

Red and blue mixed together makes purple.

Purple is the color that implies royalty. It implies wealth, luxury, extravagance and sophistication.

Therefore the purple plane gets the right of way....
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Orange and blue implies U of F. Therefore, why should I give a damn what happens to 'em?
 
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