Where to get spin training

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rpayne88

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rpayne88
Right now, I'm a student pilot with approx. six hours under my belt (and VERY slowly building time.) Back in January (before I found this forum,) my instructor and I started practicing stalls. Like most student pilots, I HATE stalls. Learning the procedure to recover from something is only half the story, if that. Towards the end of the flight, I was starting to get a hang of stall recoveries (although I'm still not comfortable with them.) Before I solo, II would also like to practice spin entries and recoveries. The problem is, my CFI will not demonstrate a spin or its recovery. He has said the only way he would ever preform a spin recovery is in the event of an inadvertent entry. I'm learning in a C-152, which is rated for intentional spins. Spin recoveries, in my opinion, seeing as they are a substantial cause of fatal accidents, should be required to be practiced.

So, my question is, does anyone know of any flight schools, CFIs, ect., within an 50miles of where I live (5miles SW of Baltimore, MD,) that offer spin and unusual attitude recovery training.
 
rpayne88 said:
Right now, I'm a student pilot with approx. six hours under my belt (and VERY slowly building time.) Back in January (before I found this forum,) my instructor and I started practicing stalls. Like most student pilots, I HATE stalls. Learning the procedure to recover from something is only half the story, if that. Towards the end of the flight, I was starting to get a hang of stall recoveries (although I'm still not comfortable with them.) Before I solo, II would also like to practice spin entries and recoveries. The problem is, my CFI will not demonstrate a spin or its recovery. He has said the only way he would ever preform a spin recovery is in the event of an inadvertent entry. I'm learning in a C-152, which is rated for intentional spins. Spin recoveries, in my opinion, seeing as they are a substantial cause of fatal accidents, should be required to be practiced.

So, my question is, does anyone know of any flight schools, CFIs, ect., within an 50miles of where I live (5miles SW of Baltimore, MD,) that offer spin and unusual attitude recovery training.
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This is sad. So you would like to learn spin recovery and more about stalls at 6 hours.. And your CFI not only refused, but didn't recommend someone more proficient than himself?

Small Rant here, but he should have the knowledge to pass the basics on to you. "Besides harping on you to keep the ball centered", or what is the point in having him there when you perform stalls?
 
rpayne88 said:
I'm learning in a C-152, which is rated for intentional spins.
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If the rudder stop kit was installed in accordance with AD 2009-10-09, otherwise, spins are no longer permitted and it would be placarded as such.

I know a number of very experienced instructors who simply prefer not to teach spins. Personally, I would be thrilled if a student asked me to do spins with them.

Anyway, I think it is great that you are seeking out spin training. While it is very valuable, it is good to keep in mind that most accidental spins happen in the traffic pattern at altitudes that are to low to recover from, even if you know how to recover. Make sure you understand how to avoid spins too. :yes:

simtech said:
I am at work so the website is blocked, but google turned this up. http://www.DCaerobatics.com says its 52 miles from Baltimore.
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There is a second choice at Potomac Airfield, http://www.aerobaticlesson.com.

I found a great spin instructor via this list: http://www.iacusn.org/schools/
 
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Give the master a call - Bill Finagin in Annapolis.
 
No tips for where to go, as I'm in Ohio. I just wanted to congratulate you for seeking out this experience at this point in your training. I wish I had done so. Spin training has elevated my confidence level with stalls ALOT. Spins in the Champ that I flew were fun, easy to enter, and easy to recover.
 
dmspilot said:
I know a number of very experienced instructors who simply prefer not to teach spins. Personally, I would be thrilled if a student asked me to do spins with them.
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And let me clarify, I know a few that prefer not to as well. But most of them know who would be better suited in the local area to give you that instruction, and have no problem handing out a referral.
 
Bill Finagin is a very well known aerobatic instructor, but I don't know that I would use the Pitts for what the OP wants at this level. My normal recommendation is to do some spins/aerobatics in something a little closer to what you are currently using such as a Super Decathlon then go to Bill for some more advanced maneuver training.
Here is someone out of Potomac Airfield with a Super D.:
http://www.dcaerobatics.com/
 
Anything west of the SFRA that anyone is aware of? I'm interested in some spin training as well.
 
ja_user said:
This is sad. So you would like to learn spin recovery and more about stalls at 6 hours.. And your CFI not only refused, but didn't recommend someone more proficient than himself?

Small Rant here, but he should have the knowledge to pass the basics on to you. "Besides harping on you to keep the ball centered", or what is the point in having him there when you perform stalls?
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My CFI owned the plane, said he'd do spins if we wanted to but he'd prefer not to because it was "hard on the gyros". Now this http://www.richstowell.com/documents/12StallSpinMyths.pdf says that's a myth. But I have no reason to doubt his proficiency. He did them with all his commercial students.... in another plane.
 
1. Get discovery flight at local flight school and pretend to be new potential student
2. Ask to do stalls
3. While doing stalls, stomp on the rudder and hold the yoke back
4. ???????
5. Profit
 
When I learned in the late 50's spin recovery was required. I did mine in a champ. Very nervous until it was explained the airplane was so slow it STALLED! ( light bulb came on.)I had to recover it three times. Once you do them a few times, it's a lot of fun. It made one very aware of what would happen if it occurred in the pattern.( You would die. )It should still be required as done correctly it puts no stress on the airplane and in a light taildragger like a Citabria it's very gentle. ( for the fellow mentioned above, in the decathlon, it's a non event. I'd go see him, or the girl with the Citabria.)
 
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DavidWhite said:
1. Get discovery flight at local flight school and pretend to be new potential student
2. Ask to do stalls
3. While doing stalls, stomp on the rudder and hold the yoke back
4. ???????
5. Profit
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Even simpler, just do some power on stalls with existing instructor, stomp some left rudder and then recover with ailerons. You'll at least get to see the scary part of the spin (presuming your CFI actually knows how to recover...)

In all seriousness, spin training is a fantastic idea. If you're not used to unusual attitudes (and based on your dislike of stalls I'm guessing you're not), the incipient spin comes as a shock...I remember being a little scared when it happened and being still a little nervous for the next couple. It's important to do a bunch of them to get comfortable and not panic. After that it's a whole bunch of fun!
 
Once you do find a place to go be sure to write up your experience and thoughts.
 
Pappy said:
Even simpler, just do some power on stalls with existing instructor, stomp some left rudder and then recover with ailerons. You'll at least get to see the scary part of the spin (presuming your CFI actually knows how to recover...)
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Which could very well be a bad assumption.
 
Besides being dishonest, juvenile and showing poor judgment....
He starts the thread with an honest question. He's been given good answers and silly ones. I'm betting he can recognize the difference.
 
Blackhawk said:
Bill Finagin is a very well known aerobatic instructor, but I don't know that I would use the Pitts for what the OP wants at this level. My normal recommendation is to do some spins/aerobatics in something a little closer to what you are currently using such as a Super Decathlon then go to Bill for some more advanced maneuver training.
Here is someone out of Potomac Airfield with a Super D.:
http://www.dcaerobatics.com/
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I see that guy all the time taking off out of Potomac.
 
To be honest you're probably making a bigger deal out of it than necessary. Spin recovery training is just that, you intentionally enter a spin and do the rote recovery routine after a couple of turns. If you don't like doing stalls you're probably not gonna like doing spins but I imagine you have this idea that if you do spins then stalls won't be so scary anymore. Yeah, probably but you don't really need to put yourself through that just to get over the fear of stalls.

Spin training, especially the structured intentional spin entry and recovery type, is way overrated. These accidents where people die in spins, they mostly occur either in the pattern or in a forced landing situation. It happens at low altitude where there's no chance of recovery - I don't care how fast you are with your PARE routine. It's FAR more valuable for you to learn how to fly and control the airplane in it's normal envelope and how to completely avoid the situations that may induce an unintentional spin.

There is nothing wrong with getting spin training but you, in your present situation, have a whole lot of other stuff to concentrate on and learn and I wouldn't jump all over your instructor for recommending this course in your training. If you view this spin stuff a macho thing - that's not good :nono:
 
Silvaire said:
To be honest you're probably making a bigger deal out of it than necessary. Spin recovery training is just that, you intentionally enter a spin and do the rote recovery routine after a couple of turns. If you don't like doing stalls you're probably not gonna like doing spins but I imagine you have this idea that if you do spins then stalls won't be so scary anymore. Yeah, probably but you don't really need to put yourself through that just to get over the fear of stalls.

Spin training, especially the structured intentional spin entry and recovery type, is way overrated. These accidents where people die in spins, they mostly occur either in the pattern or in a forced landing situation. It happens at low altitude where there's no chance of recovery - I don't care how fast you are with your PARE routine. It's FAR more valuable for you to learn how to fly and control the airplane in it's normal envelope and how to completely avoid the situations that may induce an unintentional spin.

There is nothing wrong with getting spin training but you, in your present situation, have a whole lot of other stuff to concentrate on and learn and I wouldn't jump all over your instructor for recommending this course in your training. If you view this spin stuff a macho thing - that's not good :nono:
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Learn from others mistakes. You can never make every mistake yourself, nor should you want to. I'm trying to take a lesson from this thread:
http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showthread.php?t=70123
 
Head down to LEE airport (ANP) in Edgewater MD, look for Lou Cusimano, he teaches out of a flight school there. He's my Uncle and a retired AF Colonel and heavy pilot, he would most likely teach you or he'll point you to someone who can either on field or close by. Side note, I learned to fly at Lee, I miss that tiny little airport sometimes.
 
ADIDAF said:
Head down to LEE airport (ANP) in Edgewater MD, look for Lou Cusimano, he teaches out of a flight school there. He's my Uncle and a retired AF Colonel and heavy pilot, he would most likely teach you or he'll point you to someone who can either on field or close by. Side note, I learned to fly at Lee, I miss that tiny little airport sometimes.
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Yeah, like IAC Hall-of-Famer and world-renowned spin instructor Bill Finagin who is based on that field. :)
 
As I said earlier, if you're going to do this get training that is actually going to be useful. Rather than just going up, intentionally forcing the airplane into a spin and recovering find an instructor who will also have you simulate a landing approach (at a safe altitude) and demonstrate exactly how you get into an accidental unexpected spin and teach you the forewarning signs. That's the boogeyman you're really looking for. You will most likely be surprised that getting into a spin isn't as easy as you think.
 
Silvaire said:
As I said earlier, if you're going to do this get training that is actually going to be useful. Rather than just going up, intentionally forcing the airplane into a spin and recovering find an instructor who will also have you simulate a landing approach (at a safe altitude) and demonstrate exactly how you get into an accidental unexpected spin and teach you the forewarning signs. That's the boogeyman you're really looking for. You will most likely be surprised that getting into a spin isn't as easy as you think.
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Most instructors who give decent spin training should be doing that. But I disagree with your assertion that learning to recover from intentional spins has little value. That's like saying that learning to recover from intentional stalls has little value. Instructors should set up different scenarios for spin entry just as they do for stall entry. Stall training and spin training are very closely related. In any case, learning to recover from a spin, either intentional or mocked-up as an accidental spin will give the student some situational awareness (before and during the spin) and some muscle memory and reactions that will serve them well should they ever need to utilize these reactions. It will also give them confidence in knowing where the edges lie. I strongly feel many pilots unsafely mishandle the airplane in critical situations because they are afraid of stalls/spins, and have never experienced where the edges really are. I feel those who are current and competent with spins are less likely to ever need to put those skills to use in an emergency.
 
Well played username.

 
whifferdill said:
...But I disagree with your assertion that learning to recover from intentional spins has little value...
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Well I didn't really mean it that way I'm just saying that people in general make way too big a deal out of it as if this guys life depends on him doing some spin recoveries. He's got six hours for cripes sakes and seems convinced that the airplane can just drop into a spin at any time unannounced. He just needs to learn how to fly, the pattern work and stable approaches, get some confidence. Like I said, if you get into a spin at 600 feet turning final in a 172 there's no "muscle memory" that's gonna make that turn out alright.
 
Silvaire said:
Like I said, if you get into a spin at 600 feet turning final in a 172 there's no "muscle memory" that's gonna make that turn out alright.
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But you must keep in mind that a spin only happens if you sit for a few seconds doing nothing while it develops. A developed spin takes longer to recover than a spin in the very early incipient phase. You can very quickly recover a potential spin entry if the controls are used quickly and properly. You don't need to sit there and watch it develop. I don't know about a 172, but low-altitude incipient spins are not a death sentence in many airplanes. You can do a full 1-turn spin in a J-3 and recover in about 400'. In the same airplane, you can recover an incipient spin as soon as it breaks in about 100'. None of this is possible of course without currency and experience with spins, and that automatic recovery muscle memory. Of course, doing basic spin training once, and then never doing another spin for the rest of your flying career will not ingrain these reactions. But any spin experience is good experience. No amount of training will extricate you from situations where you run out of altitude and/or ability at the same time.
 
Yes but the OP is in the very early stages of his primary training. He's not going to be in a regime where he will be experiencing incipient spins at low altitude unless he's a complete fool or his instructor let's him go up alone without knowing how to properly fly the airplane. Spins in the pattern or other low altitude situations don't normally happen to students, it's usually people with enough time to get complacent and I'm all for him getting the training, just don't think it's as crucial at this point as it's being made out to be.

If he wants to then fine, I'm just pointing out that he doesn't have to, at least not right now. I think that if he has more experience with normal flight including stalls and has a better grasp on control and higher comfort level he'll enjoy the spin experience more and probably learn more from it. I mean, if he's afraid of stalls I don't think going up now and doing half a dozen spins is necessarily gonna help that much.
 
whifferdill said:
You can do a full 1-turn spin in a J-3 and recover in about 400'. In the same airplane, you can recover an incipient spin as soon as it breaks in about 100'.
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A 1-turn spin is an incipient spin.
 
dmspilot said:
A 1-turn spin is an incipient spin.
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Yep that's right. I probably shouldn't have even used that word so that we might avoid pointless discussion about that an incipient spin is or isn't, or how it affects recovery. Incipient spin vs. fully-developed spin is a fairly unimportant distinction when it comes to spin training and recovery techniques.

So let me further clarify - If you accidentally let an airplane spin up to one turn, then you are either sitting there frozen doing nothing, or doing something very wrong. You're just along for the ride. My whole point was that you can recover a spin entry in very little altitude if you instantly recognize what is happening and apply proper inputs. For pilots with these skills, accidental spins in the pattern need not be fatal. But pilots with these skills probably won't accidentally spin in the pattern (themselves) in the first place.

So without mentioning "incipient", if you wait about 4 seconds to recover a J-3 from the time of spin entry, you've done about 1 turn, and can recover in about 400'. If you apply recovery inputs as soon as the spin breaks, you'll do about 1/4 turn and recover in about 100'.

Most airplanes will recover a spin entry in less altitude than many think, but you just can't waste time trying to figure out what's happening before acting. Good spin training will train you to recognize immediately what's happening.
 
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For about 5 years, I did most of the stage checks for a 141 school. We had about 15 instructors (most of them foreign). Every single one of them where afraid of doing spins. Turned out, the chief instructor and his assistant, instilled that fear. One at a time, I took them up to demonstrate easy and safe they were. Sad.
 
I didn't get to see a spin until after PPL at the first BFR. Had an instructor take me up in his Pitts. As he hadn't had a student in several months due to his job, he spent extra time on everything and I had about a 4 hour review on the ground and at least 1.5 in the air (adding aileron rolls, and some acro light stuff). You'll find that PARE needs to occur in about 1-1.5 seconds for a fast recovery ... my first one I was reciting each action and he laughed as I ended up reversing the spin to the other direction. We did WELL developed spins and "how fast can you fix it" spins. Spins were fun, but I liked the aileron rolls better.
 
Spin training is only partially about learning to recognize and recover from a spin. It's also about exploring the portions of the flight envelope that can get you in trouble. To me, that was where the confidence came from, and I think that will help the OP be more comfortable and confident in his/her capabilities. No amount of spin training is going to save your bacon on a base-final turn...or at least I wouldn't want to bet my life on it.

Silvaire said:
Yes but the OP is in the very early stages of his primary training. He's not going to be in a regime where he will be experiencing incipient spins at low altitude unless he's a complete fool or his instructor let's him go up alone without knowing how to properly fly the airplane. Spins in the pattern or other low altitude situations don't normally happen to students, it's usually people with enough time to get complacent and I'm all for him getting the training, just don't think it's as crucial at this point as it's being made out to be.

If he wants to then fine, I'm just pointing out that he doesn't have to, at least not right now. I think that if he has more experience with normal flight including stalls and has a better grasp on control and higher comfort level he'll enjoy the spin experience more and probably learn more from it. I mean, if he's afraid of stalls I don't think going up now and doing half a dozen spins is necessarily gonna help that much.
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