When to switch?

Aviatrix

Aviatrix

Pre-takeoff checklist
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Aviatrix
How do you know when you should change flight instructors? I'm getting frustrated and I'm not sure if it's just me or my instructor.

Still trying to solo (had to take a few weeks off due to work) and during that time I've scheduled a bunch of lessons. I check my email at work and a bunch get cancelled, some get rescheduled but some are shorter and some are just gone. I called the school and ask what is up and then say she is scheduled all day with another student and don't really have an explanation. It just makes me kind of mad that if she is the one doing this doesn't at least text me to give the heads up, I just have to deal with that I have cancelled lessons. It just strikes me as kind of rude.

I'm very close to soloing, hopefully next week when I get back but to me it's been frustrating since there is a lot of scheduling issues that have happened. She's gone for a week almost every month it seems, or then the planes are gone or I have work. I think it's definitely been a set back in my training.

Part of me is saying maybe it'd be beneficial to switch but then I have such a push over part of me thinking it'd be awkward to run into her at the school after I switched. Or I don't want to wait another 3 weeks probably to get on another instructor's schedule. I know people say that students switch instructors all the time but I'm not positive it's the right choice and I'm just kind of sensitive to other's feelings, but who knows she might be fine with it.

If you switched instructors how did you know it was time to change?
 
If your instructor can't even be bothered to work this out with you, I'd suggest that it's time for another.

Is your instructor scheduling the airplane? Perhaps it would be better if you do it. I scheduled a month in advance when I was in training. Your instructor can't help with work schedules, obviously.
 
I always call the front desk people and schedule myself. I try to always be at least 3 weeks ahead of the current date because her schedule does fill up fast. The other day when I got about 5 emails with cancellations, 3 were put back on I noticed with a different plane (there are two different 152s) but the one was an hour shorter and another never scheduled again. I called the next day and she suddenly wasn't available to add those times back. I just got another cancellation email today as well and no word. I gave them a day before to give me a call and explain but nothing ever happened until I called and still got nothing so I'm assuming it'll happen that way again this time.
 
Fire the CFI, he's a bum. There's a few thousand of CFIs, and a handful of good ones - never feel compelled to stick with one that's not working out.
 
Talk to your instructor, explain your concerns, and see if she can't fix the problem. If that doesn't work, try the Chief Instructor and then if necessary the owner/manager of the operation. If those don't work, try another school.
 
Ron Levy said:
Talk to your instructor, explain your concerns, and see if she can't fix the problem. If that doesn't work, try the Chief Instructor and then if necessary the owner/manager of the operation. If those don't work, try another school.
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+1

So from how I hear this, you don't have a problem with your CFIs instruction, just their schedule??

I WOULD NOT swap CFIs at your point of training unless I REALLY have to.

Swapping is going to cost you more hours, you're going to have to go over most everything again with the new CFI, to prove to him you're ready to solo (as it should be).

Have a come to jesus meeting with your CFI and the manager or owner for the school, make a steady scheduled flight block(s) and stick to it (both of you).

Also trying to book flight last minute with a popular CFI is always going to be problematic, I like to make regular blocks for my at our school, keeps things clean and easy.
 
I'm switching on my last few hours for checkedie prep cuz my CFI is a jerk off. Lets see what this guy will do to me now I feel my ban account opening up for the aaa raping I will be getting. This whole hobby is frustrating your at the will of these CFI who don't care and try to milk u. I'd like to meet some that are on this forum they seem to be few that are great I got the ones who wouldn't go online because they'd be ashamed
 
Its comments like these that make me glad I "interviewed" 5 schools before I settled on the one I have

It doesn't sound like the OP has a problem with her instruction just her availability and that of the plane.

Remember you are the one paying her, if she cant work to your schedule, then move on. Your training is more important than her schedule.
If she doesn't need the money (and it sounds like she doesn't care), then don't feel bad about giving her the shove out the door.

I have used 2 instructors during my training, and have learned different things and improved in different ways with each of them as they both have different styles.

Most of my pilot friends told me that during their training they had to fire at least one instructor, which is why I did a lot of window shopping before finding a school
 
I would talk to the CFI and flight school. I nearly quit after being frustrated trying to get my check off so I could convert a foreign license to the FAA certificate. I could not get a good answer why there was no sign off forthcoming. I switched CFIs and after a couple of sessions I got my check off and my certificate. Now with no one looking over my shoulder flying is fun again. I flew with my old CFI for some hood work and night flying and was told that he could see why I was signed off. Was told that after my performance he would have signed me off. I thought kinda like closing the barn door after the horses escaped. Point is, ask questions and if you don't get a good answer then switch. Remember YOU are the paying customer.
 
Fire a CFI on average?

Guessing you guys are the ones taking 80+ hrs to get a PPL.

Find a good CFI, schedule WITH them, I've gotten guys their PPLs in a month, it's all about communication and dedication IM(not so)HO
 
NineThreeKilo said:
Fire a CFI on average?

Guessing you guys are the ones taking 80+ hrs to get a PPL.

Find a good CFI, schedule WITH them, I've gotten guys their PPLs in a month, it's all about communication and dedication IM(not so)HO
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Well aren't you the special one.

Not everyone learns at the same pace, and not all personality's click and get along.

I "interviewed" 5 schools/instructors before going with what I have, and the primary reason I didn't choose the other 4 is because they told me after my intro flight, that because of my basic knowledge base and skill set ( I am an engineer, my Dad, Uncle and cousins are all aviation engineers, I have many friends with planes that I ride along in), ie I know how planes fly, that I would solo in 8-12 hours, and take the PPL in 40-50, I went with the guy that told me I would do these things when I was safe.
Its my money and I will spend as much of it as I like on training.

Just FYI my instructor's said I was ready at about the 45-50 hr mark, but I wanted to be more precise so will take my test when I feel ready ( in the next week or so) at the 70-80 hour mark.
 
ferrari-tech said:
Well aren't you the special one.

Not everyone learns at the same pace, and not all personality's click and get along.

I "interviewed" 5 schools/instructors before going with what I have, and the primary reason I didn't choose the other 4 is because they told me after my intro flight, that because of my basic knowledge base and skill set ( I am an engineer, my Dad, Uncle and cousins are all aviation engineers, I have many friends with planes that I ride along in), ie I know how planes fly, that I would solo in 8-12 hours, and take the PPL in 40-50, I went with the guy that told me I would do these things when I was safe.
Its my money and I will spend as much of it as I like on training.

Just FYI my instructor's said I was ready at about the 45-50 hr mark, but I wanted to be more precise so will take my test when I feel ready ( in the next week or so) at the 70-80 hour mark.
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Eh, engineers ALWAYS take forever to solo, they are often too liniear, too 1 or 0 types, the landing flare is a HUGE pain to teach them, feeling the aircraft for a gradual back pressure to hold her off comes very hard to most of those types Ive flown with.

As of of late (last year or so) Ive had 2 engineers (one electronic or mech) that I've given to my other CFI. The surfer, skydiver, biker, types are easier to mold into someone I'll be willing to put my name too.
 
NineThreeKilo said:
Eh, engineers ALWAYS take forever to solo, they are often too liniear, too 1 or 0 types, the landing flare is a HUGE pain to teach them, feeling the aircraft for a gradual back pressure to hold her off comes very hard to most of those types Ive flown with.

As of of late (last year or so) Ive had 2 engineers (one electronic or mech) that I've given to my other CFI. The surfer, skydiver, biker, types are easier to mold into someone I'll be willing to put my name too.
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Don't want to blow your bubble, but I started racing motocross at 9 years old, was paid to do it by the time I was 16, got injured at 18,(broken pelvis/dislocated hip) went to collage to have a career, started racing street bikes at 24, and carried carried on with motocross,
I tried sky diving, but found it boring compared to bikes, ( its a bit like sticking your head out the car window at 120mph) once you have dragged your knee at 130mph or cleared a 90 ft triple jump not much else is a thrill.
Now I spend my days playing with the best Ferraris, Mclarens and Lambo's around , but flying is more fun.

The difference you are finding is that when you tell and engineer to do something he/she analyzes the inputs and consequences of such instructions, where as your typical "biker dude" just goes for it.
I suspect if you where to instruct a top class bike racer or surfer you would find a similar type of analyzes as an engineer.
 
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ferrari-tech said:
The difference you are finding is that when you tell and engineer to do something he/she analyzes the inputs and consequences of such instructions, where as your typical "biker dude" just goes for it.
I suspect if you where to instruct a top class bike racer or surfer you would find a similar type of analyzes as an engineer.
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I just see the outcome, I've not had the privilege of flying with a engineer that had a racing (as in the one in the vehicle) background yet. However the ones I have flown with maybe are analyzing instead of doing, ether way, they are great for logging a bunch of hours in my planes and making me money, but not so much for getting their wings.

CFIed a few established athletes and they tend to be more biker then engineer.

The "biker dudes" tend to be easier for me to endorse to solo without fear of piling a plane in then the analyzers.


Your mileage may vary
 
NineThreeKilo said:
CFIed a few established athletes and they tend to be more biker then engineer.

The "biker dudes" tend to be easier for me to endorse to solo without fear of piling a plane in then the analyzers.
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Drive in a car with a top F1 or rally driver and you will notice very high levels of intellect and analyses in all situations at all times, and a constant "looking forward" view point. They are always ahead of the situation.

Bottom line is no two people are the same, if you teach everyone the exact same way to the exact same time line/standard you end up with an Asiana pilot.
 
ferrari-tech said:
Drive in a car with a top F1 or rally driver and you will notice very high levels of intellect and analyses in all situations at all times, and a constant "looking forward" view point. They are always ahead of the situation.

Bottom line is no two people are the same, if you teach everyone the exact same way to the exact same time line/standard you end up with an Asiana pilot.
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Different kinds of intellect and analysis, operators and engineers have equally difficult jobs, they just are different.

FYI, barking up the wrong tree with me bud, most my guys are career AG, all doing quite well, those asians in the 777 probably would have washed up before solo with me :wink2:
 
Back to the OP's question. The answer is real simple. You need to have trust, and rapport with your instructor. Everything else to me is either icing on the cake, or vinegar in the wine, it may taste good, or taste bad but it probably will not kill you. If you do not feel for whatever reason that your instructor can teach you safely, and teach you what you need to know to be safe, then find another instructor. If you do not feel for whatever reason that your instructor is meshing with you, then find another instructor.

You are having issues with rapport as I see it. Is it time to find another instructor, only you know that, but you probably already do, and are asking us for a reason to support your decision. It is your money, your are a customer, do not feel you need to waste it in the hopes of not bruising someone's self esteem.

As for time to PPL, everyone is different, it is like that wine(I think it was wine)...they would not bottle it before its time.

Good luck.

Doug
 
Aviatrix said:
How do you know when you should change flight instructors? I'm getting frustrated and I'm not sure if it's just me or my instructor.
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Aviatrix, based on what you said I think its time to switch to another CFI and maybe switch to another school. Definitely talk to your current CFI first, let her know your frustration and try to come to a better working arrangement. Also talk to the chief instructor (as Ron mentioned). He/she should be made aware of the situation. As a professional your CFI should not be doing this to you and the fact that she IS doing it to you indicates incompetence on her part.
 
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I am with those here saying have a serious conversation with your CFI before you do anything else. Be honest with her. If you "can't get no satisfaction," then switch.
 
I would say talk it out. If that doesn't work change.

Reading some of the stories here my CFI was a dream. I was in my mid to late 20s at the time and he was quite a bit younger than me but was available when I needed him. He let you make the mistakes (assuming it wasn't unsafe) and would say, "do you see what you did there? lets try it again."

He got the training in fairly quickly, soloed me at 9.6 and I passed the Private at 59 and probably 10 of that was flying every couple days just prior to the test just to make sure I was 100% good to go. I also had a "pre-test" check-ride with the CFI's dad and club owner, a pro-pilot and a CFI himself he was way harder on me than the real check-ride.

I did fly a few hours with another instructor because my guy was tied up and really didn't like it. He was less experienced and all over the controls all the time. I don't think I would have made it if he was my full time CFI.:nonod:
 
OP = Aviatrix = female?. Refers to CFI as "she". A phenomena has been observed in industry where successful women are not that supportive of helping other women penetrate the glass ceiling. Could that be a factor here?
 
Graueradler said:
OP = Aviatrix = female?. Refers to CFI as "she". A phenomena has been observed in industry where successful women are not that supportive of helping other women penetrate the glass ceiling. Could that be a factor here?
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Probably not. More likely her CFI is simply unprofessional, a poor communicator, immature, doesn't care...or all of the above!
 
Graueradler said:
OP = Aviatrix = female?. Refers to CFI as "she". A phenomena has been observed in industry where successful women are not that supportive of helping other women penetrate the glass ceiling. Could that be a factor here?
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Not only is it a factor here, but it is also a factor as to why the OP is hesitant to stand up for herself as any man would.

Sorry Aviatrix, but you need to tell this CFI that if she can't meet your needs, then you need to find someone that can. You can say it as diplomatically as you can, but you need to say it.
 
ferrari-tech said:
Well aren't you the special one.

Not everyone learns at the same pace, and not all personality's click and get along.

I "interviewed" 5 schools/instructors before going with what I have, and the primary reason I didn't choose the other 4 is because they told me after my intro flight, that because of my basic knowledge base and skill set ( I am an engineer, my Dad, Uncle and cousins are all aviation engineers, I have many friends with planes that I ride along in), ie I know how planes fly, that I would solo in 8-12 hours, and take the PPL in 40-50, I went with the guy that told me I would do these things when I was safe.
Its my money and I will spend as much of it as I like on training.

Just FYI my instructor's said I was ready at about the 45-50 hr mark, but I wanted to be more precise so will take my test when I feel ready ( in the next week or so) at the 70-80 hour mark.
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Got my ticket in 41.2:D
 
acluffpoa said:
Where is Ben when we need expert advice on changing CFI's?
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Switching airplanes....he's gone up several times in a Warrior now. Says it's going well and that they are "easier to fly" (no, they aren't, at least not significantly, which makes me concerned).
 
Also remember we are only hearing one side of the story as well. CFI could be a fool, or it could be just a misunderstanding or lack of communication from either side.

I have access to the scheduler and schedule my own lessons and reserve whichever plane I want. Sometimes a lesson gets cancelled on me, but the instructor always lets me know. I get along well with him, so I have basically told him that he can move me around as needed if something comes up. I consider myself pretty flexible. Things come up and sometimes instructors need to cancel or move a lesson.

That said if the CFI is cancelling or moving lessons without at least communicating to the student what's going on, there is a problem that needs to be addressed. I'm not sure that it's time to dump the CFI just yet but if an agreement can't be amicably reached, then yeah, shop for someone else. It does look like there is some friction here and that is likely not a good thing.
 
Bill was correct a bit. Two of the changes were done by someone other than my CFI, or at least that's the story. She helped fixed one, but couldn't help the other. The one change that happened set me off quickly, so when I texted her about it she said she was already going to talk to me about rescheduling.

But I am flying with another instructor tomorrow because she had to cancel another lesson last minute and suggested I just fly with someone else. We'll see how I think about his teaching style and judge which I like better.
 
Aviatrix said:
Bill was correct a bit. Two of the changes were done by someone other than my CFI, or at least that's the story. She helped fixed one, but couldn't help the other. The one change that happened set me off quickly, so when I texted her about it she said she was already going to talk to me about rescheduling.

But I am flying with another instructor tomorrow because she had to cancel another lesson last minute and suggested I just fly with someone else. We'll see how I think about his teaching style and judge which I like better.
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Seems like way too much canceling going on! She sounds like she has more important (in her mind) things to do than teach you how to fly! That used to drive me nuts when I was a student. And when I was a full time CFI (many moons ago ;)) I avoided canceling my lessons, switching my students to another CFI, etc. as much as I possibly could! Its just plain wrong...wrong for the student that is paying lots of $ to learn to fly. It's hard enough to get through the training, especially primary training, with a CFI that doesn't frequently cancel your lessons.

Aviatrix, I know you know all of this but for your sake you need to find A (as in one, not two or three) CFI that is respectful of your time, someone that will stick with you and honor their commitments. Even if a CFI is part time or on their way to "bigger and better" flying jobs they should take their flight instructing job very seriously while they are doing it! Be selective and find someone that is going to work for YOU!
 
Now I'm just unbelievably frustrated. The people at the school changed me from one CFI to another for today, and that CFI doesn't fit in the plane. They couldn't find another one for me so back to the train for me.

This didn't happen long ago so it may just be anger but new question: any suggestions of good schools in the NYC area? FRG, ISP or even a NJ school that would do semi-accelerated because I'll rent a car to get out there and not have to deal with scheduling nightmares anymore.
 
Well, scheduling headaches are part of flying. It's just reality. Airplanes break, weather just doesn't listen to reason, people get sick or have to travel for day jobs, FBOs F up, etc.

Your instructor seems to be taking it a little extreme, but from your descriptions, it sounds like you're doing it too. Not that there is anything wrong with that -- instructing is not a way to get rich and a lot of folks have real jobs, too.

The key is whether it's excessive. You need to evaluate honestly whether it is or not, and act accordingly. It's REALLY frustrating to delay a milestone. The solo cross-country is going to do this to you as well, probably worse. But, some level of this always happens.

I can't emphasize enough that the single most important lesson from flight training is patience. And the second is making dispassionate evaluations of conditions. Lots of accidents happen when people let outside pressures determine their actions, such as launching into questionable weather or with questionable equipment.
 
Please don't let them continue to do this to you.. There is a chance that it could lead to you giving up your goal/dream of getting your pilots license. How many stories have we read of students going from one cfi or school to another over and over repeating the same lessons over and over, waisting their money until they finally give up. Don't let this happen to you!

I think Islip is a much better airport to fly out of. You will spend much less time on the ground and you won't be number 15 on downwind. Also the controllers are much more professional and helpful. You might be able to take the lirr train to Islip airport.

Give me an idea of how many hours you have in what model of airplane and I will try to recommend a school to you at Islip.

Good luck..







Aviatrix said:
Now I'm just unbelievably frustrated. The people at the school changed me from one CFI to another for today, and that CFI doesn't fit in the plane. They couldn't find another one for me so back to the train for me.

This didn't happen long ago so it may just be anger but new question: any suggestions of good schools in the NYC area? FRG, ISP or even a NJ school that would do semi-accelerated because I'll rent a car to get out there and not have to deal with scheduling nightmares anymore.
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I'm around 23 hours in a 152 and it seems like I've been "a lesson or two away from soloing" for a long time now, probably for about 10 lessons.

I know my instructor has two other jobs, one other flying one (which I just learned about) and then another teaching job. So she's definitely busy, I also believe she will shortly be leaving for an airline job. Maybe a month or two away.

I also understand weather cannot be reasoned with and I've had so many lessons cancelled due to that. I did the math one time and had 60 lessons scheduled and only 16 went up so about 75% have been cancelled due to weather. That's just my luck with weather not with other things.

I don't think I've ever been allowed to go up in questionable weather, which, yes, that's good. The planes are old, older than me by about 10 years. So there are things that are a bit old looking. I know we've gone up with some skin missing from the end of the wings, just a little section and I could see the cloth underneath it. They make a lot of noise and some things can be a bit wonky but never unsafe, as far as I am lead to believe.

I haven't made a decision yet about what to do. I definitely knew I had to cool off from yesterday. Today will be a lot of thinking, researching, and budgeting.
 
LOTS of people get stuck where you do. The scheduling issues may be really frustrating, but it's really important not to pressure your instructor to solo you based on anything other than safety. Your CFI should be good at resisting that pressure (it's the same sort of ADM we have to learn as pilots, not to launch in conditions we aren't prepared for), but the failure mode is not good.

Can you honestly say -- regardless of what you want to be true -- that you know with certainty that you can place the aircraft safely on its wheels and come to a stop on the pavement, every time? That's the question the instructor will be asking.

Now, if the answer is "no" and the instructor doesn't know how to change it, that's a problem. Just flying 50 times around the pattern may work, but it's not very efficient. And this is one place where one lesson with another (preferably very senior) instructor can make a large difference.

Here is another potential issue -- you say you've never been allowed to go up in questionable weather. If you want to be the pilot in command, it should be you that makes that decision. If your instructor is making decisions for you, you're not ready for solo. You won't have an instructor with you.

And going up in questionable weather with an instructor who is instrument current and in an aircraft properly equipped is a really useful experience. You can safely dodge clouds that way or deal with light rain, and push the wind limits once you can get a reliably good landing in good conditions. And if it gets worse than expected, your instructor can get a pop-up IFR clearance and get you safely on the ground.

Lots of people can't fit in 152s. I can only barely, and any passenger has to be 120 lb or less. No kneeboard. There is a lot more room in a 172.
 
ferrari-tech said:
Drive in a car with a top F1 or rally driver and you will notice very high levels of intellect and analyses in all situations at all times, and a constant "looking forward" view point. They are always ahead of the situation.
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40+ year career in driving top spec Rally cars all over Europe and Africa,Asia, it all meant nothing when it came to my flight training, I took 70hrs before I felt confident and safe and my CFI decided I was ready for my check ride.

I got lucky, whole training with one CFI who I listened to and respected 100%
When he saw me getting frustrated he had me take a break, when he saw me relaxed and push through asigned tasks more easily we pressed on to another level of the training

To the OP whatever it is in life, I have tried dialogue first and then if a mutual result between both parties can't be found, then time to move on.
Good luck.
 
What school are you with at FRG ? PM me if you don't want to post it in public.

I do know one school at farmingdale that I would recommend but not sure if that is the one you are having this issue with.

Thanks
 
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