When To Swap CFI's?

[kimberlyanne546]

1 week? There is no absolutely no way.

2 week? Doubt it.

There was "airport gossip" when I was in training that a guy came and had 14 days in a row of good weather / good training and finished. NOBODY could believe the story but I think it was at my flight school (don't remember). The pilot came from another country and was only here a limited amount of time. But that was a "record" amount of time. Very unusual.

 

[dell30rb]

I still can't figure out what about those things you feel delay training. They're building blocks for creating a safe pilot -- I have never had a student say "man these steep turns are really holding me back!". It's how you teach someone to handle an airplane.

Agreed. I consider that stuff "the basics"... start with the basics, everyone knows that. You rarely need to use these things in the average point A to point B flight, sure. But its not about that, its about developing skill and a feel for handling the aircraft. And its about safety. There are a number of emergency situations that can happen to you (and kill you) that will require you to have more proficiency than just being able to make a decent landing from a stabilized by the numbers approach on a bluebird day.

Its also fun.

 

[SkyHog]

I still can't figure out what about those things you feel delay training. They're building blocks for creating a safe pilot -- I have never had a student say "man these steep turns are really holding me back!". It's how you teach someone to handle an airplane.

I tell students that we're going to work on turning the airplane more steeply, explain how they'll need more rudder, how there may be an overbanking tendancy and we do it. Two or three attempts and any student I've ever had can nail them to PTS.

It doesn't "hold them back" anymore than require them to perform 8s on pylons does for a private pilot. Its just unnecessary.

A PPL should know how to

1. Take off
2. Land
3. Navigate
4. Deal with emergencies
5. Recover from Stalls and Spins
6. Read/Understand Regulations

A commercial pilot should be able to control the plane to expert precision.

But that's not how the regs read, nor is it how we teach students.

edit:

What we teach PPL students is like teaching a teenage driver how to drive 40MPH toward a parking spot, pull the e-brake, and expertly place the car in between 2 others without causing any damage.

Or to a less dramatic extent, requiring a Class D Driver to possess skills that only a CDL candidate would need - like backing a tractor trailer into a precision spot.

 

[jesse]

It doesn't "hold them back" anymore than require them to perform 8s on pylons does for a private pilot. Its just unnecessary.

A PPL should know how to

1. Take off
2. Land
3. Navigate
4. Deal with emergencies
5. Recover from Stalls and Spins
6. Read/Understand Regulations

A commercial pilot should be able to control the plane to expert precision.

But that's not how the regs read, nor is it how we teach students.

So you'd prefer teaching students to fly and never once asking them to bank more then about 30 degrees? You'd like private pilots running around that have never banked an airplane more then 30 degrees and have no idea how and were told not to even do it?

 

[ajstoner21]

What should be taught to a private pilot might be better for a new thread...

 

[SkyHog]

So you'd prefer teaching students to fly and never once asking them to bank more then about 30 degrees? You'd like private pilots running around that have never banked an airplane more then 30 degrees and have no idea how and were told not to even do it?

yes because if a student is too dumb to realize that the plane is going to go inverted before it does, they'll never get that far anyway.

"I turned right too far!! if only someone had told me to turn left to fix it. oh woe is me!"

 

[bigblockz8]

"1. For 3/3 lessons, he was 15 or more minutes late."

Now is he late just coming in, or is late coming back from a previous flight???

If coming back from another flight, It does and will happen depending on the airport, airspace, student.

If just coming in late, 3/3 is unacceptable.

He was late getting to the airport. I generally schedule flights for 8 or 10 am. In my experiences the CFI won't show until about 8:10,even if they live on the field. The fact that sometimes the airplane won't be full or plugged in (no clue why they don't fill her up, prob why I've gotten water in the tanks) accounts for me getting there at 7:30-40 at the latest. Saves $ to preflight while the CFI isn't getting paid to sit inside.

I don't count the 10 mins I give them as a grace period, so in reality he has been 25 minutes late twice, and 15 late for a 10am flight. There was a CFI that commuted from 45 miles away daily and he was always there with his student...at 7:40 am, about the time when I come rolling in.

 

[bigblockz8]

Oh and the school does have a Chief CFI, they also have a 141 program.

 

[Jeanie]

Hi Greg,

Pm sent

 

[bobmrg]

There was "airport gossip" when I was in training that a guy came and had 14 days in a row of good weather / good training and finished. NOBODY could believe the story but I think it was at my flight school (don't remember). The pilot came from another country and was only here a limited amount of time. But that was a "record" amount of time. Very unusual.

The record at the school where I spent most of my instructing time was three weeks. Then the brand-new pilot bought a Cherokee 235 with a big stack of bills (no check); within a month he was busted for smuggling pot in from Mexico.

Bob Gardner

 

[bobmrg]

It doesn't "hold them back" anymore than require them to perform 8s on pylons does for a private pilot. Its just unnecessary.

A PPL should know how to

1. Take off
2. Land
3. Navigate
4. Deal with emergencies
5. Recover from Stalls and Spins
6. Read/Understand Regulations

A commercial pilot should be able to control the plane to expert precision.

But that's not how the regs read, nor is it how we teach students.

edit:

What we teach PPL students is like teaching a teenage driver how to drive 40MPH toward a parking spot, pull the e-brake, and expertly place the car in between 2 others without causing any damage.

Or to a less dramatic extent, requiring a Class D Driver to possess skills that only a CDL candidate would need - like backing a tractor trailer into a precision spot.

8's on pylons for the private? Where is that in the PTS?

Bob Gardner

 

[dell30rb]

yes because if a student is too dumb to realize that the plane is going to go inverted before it does, they'll never get that far anyway.

"I turned right too far!! if only someone had told me to turn left to fix it. oh woe is me!"

Problem is that alot of people will tend to freak out and seize up when they are suddenly put in a situation they have never been in before.

An encounter with wake turbulence, or mountain turbulence can leave you suddenly in a very bad attitude. Or if you VFR into IMC and pop out of the clouds in a spiral dive. Someone with no experience or proficiency in steep turns and spiral dive recovery might not know how to recover, or even if they read about how to recover they might just freak out and lose it.

 

[Jaybird180]

The record at the school where I spent most of my instructing time was three weeks. Then the brand-new pilot bought a Cherokee 235 with a big stack of bills (no check); within a month he was busted for smuggling pot in from Mexico.

Bob Gardner

Kudos to his instructor for XC flight planning and W&B

 

[SkyHog]

8's on pylons for the private? Where is that in the PTS?

Bob Gardner

That's the point. Why not 8's on Pylons? Makes as much sense as some of the other tomfoolery that exists just to "teach students how to fly."

 

[ggroves]

What we teach PPL students is like teaching a teenage driver how to drive 40MPH toward a parking spot, pull the e-brake, and expertly place the car in between 2 others without causing any damage.

Strongly agree. Subsequent generations of CFIs tend to over teach and micro-manage. How many PP candidates are signed off at 40 hours? Not many...it's more like 60. You can argue more complex airspace, regs, etc, but I don't agree. And we wonder why our ranks are dropping......add the high barrier to entry as one of the many reasons.



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[Jaybird180]

I wonder how many student want their hands held. How many come prepared for the next lesson. How many CFIs make sure the students know where they are in their training. It's a relationship, communication issue. Too many students not actively involved in learning and too many instructors baby-sitting.

I blame the public school system. (tongue in cheek but serious)

 

[SkyHog]

I wonder how many student want their hands held. How many come prepared for the next lesson. How many CFIs make sure the students know where they are in their training. It's a relationship, communication issue. Too many students not actively involved in learning and too many instructors baby-sitting.

I blame the public school system. (tongue in cheek but serious)

How many student drivers do the same thing? It doesn't take thousands of dollars to learn to drive a car, and driving a car is harder than flying an airplane. More dangerous too.

 

[bigblockz8]

I wonder how many student want their hands held. How many come prepared for the next lesson. How many CFIs make sure the students know where they are in their training. It's a relationship, communication issue. Too many students not actively involved in learning and too many instructors baby-sitting.

I blame the public school system. (tongue in cheek but serious)

That is true. Same goes for the CFIs too though. My good ones used to text me a week in advance about what they wanted and they would assign homework. THOSE were good CFIs.My recent ones create a lesson plan on the fly...literally.

*On the rwy* Uhhh okay let's do a umm, do you know how to do soft field? "No." Okay let's do short field. Hold the brakes, full power, Vx climb out.

"Okay."

 

[jesse]

How many student drivers do the same thing? It doesn't take thousands of dollars to learn to drive a car, and driving a car is harder than flying an airplane. More dangerous too.

You can teach a teenager to drive in a weekend - you simply cannot teach someone to fly as safely as that teenager can drive in a weekend.

You really need to try teaching Nick - if you have it all figured out - which you seem to think you do, you might as well just quit your job and do it full-time. You'd make a killing and change aviation for the better.

 

[bluee]

How many student drivers do the same thing? It doesn't take thousands of dollars to learn to drive a car, and driving a car is harder than flying an airplane. More dangerous too.

In some countries, and I can think of Germany and the UK off the top of my head, a drivers license costs thousands and is not easily obtained.

 

[RotorAndWing]

In some countries, and I can think of Germany and the UK off the top of my head, a drivers license costs thousands and is not easily obtained.

Japan is also the same.

 

[SkyHog]

You can teach a teenager to drive in a weekend - you simply cannot teach someone to fly as safely as that teenager can drive in a weekend.

You really need to try teaching Nick - if you have it all figured out - which you seem to think you do, you might as well just quit your job and do it full-time. You'd make a killing and change aviation for the better.

its not a reflection on CFIs, its a reflection on what we require CFIs to do. if you were told that to train a student, you needed to do only 1/8 of what you currently do, you don't think it'd happen any faster?

 

[ajstoner21]

I mean no disrespect, but in my opinion, flying and driving are NOTHING a like. Entirely different decisions and risks, requiring a completely different type of judgement. I could go an entire year without driving, and hop in a car without hesitation by myself. There is no way I would feel comfortable doing that in a plane.

And I do not think the requirements for PPL are strict at all. I flew maybe once a month, twice a month if I was lucky, and still finished with 41 hours total in about a calendar years time.

 

[jesse]

its not a reflection on CFIs, its a reflection on what we require CFIs to do. if you were told that to train a student, you needed to do only 1/8 of what you currently do, you don't think it'd happen any faster?

I don't think I could make a safe pilot in any shorter time if you said I didn't have to abide by federal aviation regulations what-so-ever and could just issue pilot certificates on my own authority.

I really don't find myself ever being held back by the regulations, because there really isn't much since I don't teach 141. I also don't ever feel like the PTS is holding me back. I've never struggled to make a student meet the PTS while feeling like they'd be a safe aviator otherwise. Nor have I had a student feel that way.

 

[TMetzinger]

I'm with Jesse. The various manuevers aren't the medicine, they're the spoon. If you didn't use them you'd have to use another set of manuevers and practice to get the concepts across.

I could teach someone to "fly" in less time, especially if all I was teaching them was enough to fly around in the pattern and use pilotage to get from one airport to another. But that's not enough to operate in this country safely.

 

[SkyHog]

I could teach someone to "fly" in less time, especially if all I was teaching them was enough to fly around in the pattern and use pilotage to get from one airport to another. But that's not enough to operate in this country safely.

That's where you and I differ in opinion. I believe, for a private pilot, that is the only thing that should be necessary.

What kills me is reading ground school material, and seeing that every single one of the texts include verbiage to the extent of "To roll the plane to the left, the pilot must turn the yoke to the left." Really???? That needs to be taught? About the only control input that is not obvious to a new pilot is that to steer on the ground, one uses their feet, not their hands.

Speaking of - why do we care about having to be coordinated at all times again? If I'm flying uncoordinated, even through a turn that is not near stall speed, why do I care? Oh yeah, because its "Good practice and shows mastery of the aircraft."

When you learn to drive, do we spend an hour teaching the student driver how to make the car turn? ("If you see a turn coming, turn the wheel in the direction of the turn, not against it."). Do we require that they understand the DOT regulations inside and out? Do we teach them what they CAN'T do? I don't remember being told during driver's education that I was not allowed to carry certain materials onboard my vehicle, even though those laws exist.

Why? Because we haven't dumbed down the process to the point where we have to teach each minutiae to the student. We make assumptions that there are obvious points that they'll either know or figure out on their own.

So - what is the difference between flying and driving anyway?

1. You have to use a radio in some instances
2. You have an additional plane of controllable travel (actually, I suppose you have 2 additional)
3. Getting lost is slightly easier (hence the need for navigational training)
4. Running out of gas is a bigger deal (can't teach that one)
5. There's no "road signs" (but, we have a nifty little book that gives us the rules that exist, and for the most part, the rules are consistent nationwide...no speed limits that would apply to a private pilot anyway)
6. On the ground, you steer with your feet
7. Accidents with other aircraft are usually fatal
8. Landing is not natural (This is probably where the focus of teaching should lie)

But honestly, if you took a new student, handed them the controls, and said, without any other training, "Fly us from here to the next city. I'll show you how to taxi. I'll perform the landing," do you really think a student is going to not be able to figure it out?

edit: Oh wait....how will they ever figure out how to turn left

 

[jesse]

That's where you and I differ in opinion. I believe, for a private pilot, that is the only thing that should be necessary.

What kills me is reading ground school material, and seeing that every single one of the texts include verbiage to the extent of "To roll the plane to the left, the pilot must turn the yoke to the left." Really???? That needs to be taught? About the only control input that is not obvious to a new pilot is that to steer on the ground, one uses their feet, not their hands.

Speaking of - why do we care about having to be coordinated at all times again? If I'm flying uncoordinated, even through a turn that is not near stall speed, why do I care? Oh yeah, because its "Good practice and shows mastery of the aircraft."

When you learn to drive, do we spend an hour teaching the student driver how to make the car turn? ("If you see a turn coming, turn the wheel in the direction of the turn, not against it."). Do we require that they understand the DOT regulations inside and out? Do we teach them what they CAN'T do? I don't remember being told during driver's education that I was not allowed to carry certain materials onboard my vehicle, even though those laws exist.

Why? Because we haven't dumbed down the process to the point where we have to teach each minutiae to the student. We make assumptions that there are obvious points that they'll either know or figure out on their own.

So - what is the difference between flying and driving anyway?

1. You have to use a radio in some instances
2. You have an additional plane of controllable travel (actually, I suppose you have 2 additional)
3. Getting lost is slightly easier (hence the need for navigational training)
4. Running out of gas is a bigger deal (can't teach that one)
5. There's no "road signs" (but, we have a nifty little book that gives us the rules that exist, and for the most part, the rules are consistent nationwide...no speed limits that would apply to a private pilot anyway)
6. On the ground, you steer with your feet
7. Accidents with other aircraft are usually fatal
8. Landing is not natural (This is probably where the focus of teaching should lie)

But honestly, if you took a new student, handed them the controls, and said, without any other training, "Fly us from here to the next city. I'll show you how to taxi. I'll perform the landing," do you really think a student is going to not be able to figure it out?

edit: Oh wait....how will they ever figure out how to turn left

You know a lot about aviation - and make strong assumptions about what students know.

A lot of the training before teaching a student to land is to give them the tools of having a chance in hell of landing.

 

[denverpilot]

LOL. You guys are cracking me up.

The basics (coordinated, uncoordinated, etc.) were the building blocks for later when the CFI would say, "Are we aligned with the centerline?" in a hellacious crosswind.

"No..." I'd say, but not yet make a correction... Brain trying to figure it out... "So if I bank I'll turn and I'll have to apply opposite rudder to stop the turn..."

A chuckle from the right seat... "Whatever it takes!"

This of course is fairly late in primary training when you're being pushed over the hump of looking to the instructor for guidance and instead learning to make your own choices as PIC.

The instructor's there to remind you to "connect the dots". You already know in your head what to do, now you need your brain to connect with your hands and feet. They're in "coaching mode" versus "teaching mode" at that point.

The unstated words are, "You've done this before, you just didn't realize it was prep for this moment."

If you don't have those basics in your head from maneuvers in the practice area by that point in time, you will frustrate the hell out of yourself sooner or later with something that didn't "stick". A good CFI will see it and realize where the knowledge hole is.

That said, I will admit.. the CFII shrieking in the right seat demanding I cross-control the aircraft to hold a localizer a couple weeks ago was a first.

LOL!

(Okay he wasn't shrieking but it comes across that way sometimes. Ha!)

"Wings level, rudder to the localizer!"

I'm sitting there frozen thinking... "YGBFKM. Where did THIS new crap come from!?"

Later, I could see the (maybe) usefulness of the technique... But hearing a CFI barking for crossing up the aircraft when trying to hold a constant airspeed descent and zero need for it, rubbed me wrong. Still does, in fact.

 

[jesse]

I was "fired" this morning by a student - I missed a flight - my own stupid fault. I just didn't get it entered into my calendar properly.

Offered to take the entire day off and fly with him on my dime without a response, just mailed him a $200 check for his lost time, and that's all I can do. I hate it when I make a mistake.

 

[Swampfox201]

I was "fired" this morning by a student - I missed a flight - my own stupid fault. I just didn't get it entered into my calendar properly.

Offered to take the entire day off and fly with him on my dime without a response, just mailed him a $200 check for his lost time, and that's all I can do. I hate it when I make a mistake.

We've all made that mistake Jesse but you're right...not fun.

 

[dell30rb]

LOL. You guys are cracking me up.


"Wings level, rudder to the localizer!"

I'm sitting there frozen thinking... "YGBFKM. Where did THIS new crap come from!?"

Later, I could see the (maybe) usefulness of the technique... But hearing a CFI barking for crossing up the aircraft when trying to hold a constant airspeed descent and zero need for it, rubbed me wrong. Still does, in fact.

Yeah I can't see any reason for doing that? Plenty of time to correct for a crosswind when you break out at 200 agl

Jesse I wouldn't feel bad. My instructor messed up 2-3 lessons during my training due to similar issues. That's just human error. Freaking out because you missed one lesson is stupid IMO

 

[bluee]

I was "fired" this morning by a student - I missed a flight - my own stupid fault. I just didn't get it entered into my calendar properly.

Offered to take the entire day off and fly with him on my dime without a response, just mailed him a $200 check for his lost time, and that's all I can do. I hate it when I make a mistake.

You sound like a thoughtful instructor.

I really like the CFII I have now, but I ended up disappointed in the CFI I had for my private. But new private pilot students often don't know any better, and it took me a long time to realize he was not that great and I should have left earlier. He was not organized, so lessons were repeated, the airplanes routinely were unavailable due to maintenance (I'm talking months here), and he dragged everything out as long as possible to make as much money as possible.

 

[bigblockz8]

You sound like a thoughtful instructor.

I really like the CFII I have now, but I ended up disappointed in the CFI I had for my private. But new private pilot students often don't know any better, and it took me a long time to realize he was not that great and I should have left earlier. He was not organized, so lessons were repeated, the airplanes routinely were unavailable due to maintenance (I'm talking months here), and he dragged everything out as long as possible to make as much money as possible.

I get that feeling sometimes...I've overheard stuff that I probably shouldn't have. Stuff about "it's not like I'm stealing from the poor, this dude is freaking loaded" in reference to a yuppy kid who's daddy got him a new SR22T with all the bells and whistles as a graduation gift. The poor guy was at 100hrs and still flying with a CFI!

I felt like this with my stalls. Nice that one CFI fixed it and got me to PTS for steep turns in the same lesson that took 4 other CFI's to do. I guess CFIs are similar to dating? I like to listen to them when they aren't on the clock, its hilarious!

PS: The "loaded" student left fixed wing for rotary and left a private CFI for a school.

 

[bigblockz8]

I was "fired" this morning by a student - I missed a flight - my own stupid fault. I just didn't get it entered into my calendar properly.

Offered to take the entire day off and fly with him on my dime without a response, just mailed him a $200 check for his lost time, and that's all I can do. I hate it when I make a mistake.

That's very commendable sir! I wish that some of the CFIs down here would even take 1/100 of the effort that you took. I schedule weeks in advance, work my butt off for a bit of flying money, cancel any plans for the day, notify my mom so that I have a ride and so that she won't put in OT and then what happens? My CFI texts me before I go to bed saying that he's taking a personal day!

That just ****ed me off! He is definitely fired, its too bad that he isn't independent.

I have shown up for a lesson and the CFI was no where to be found for my time slot. Not too fun on coincidentally the coldest day of that year!
Pre-flight completed, I filled her up, filed a fp, even helped around the FBO by taxiing a couple 152's/172's across the field, ALL before my lesson began! All that I needed was a CFI and a squawk code, ready to go.

 

[Jaybird180]

Greg- With all the trouble you've had I would hope that you would avail yourself of some of the resources that have been offered to you in the past.

CRM works in real life too.

 

[bigblockz8]

Greg- With all the trouble you've had I would hope that you would avail yourself of some of the resources that have been offered to you in the past.

CRM works in real life too.

I emailed the chief instructor about 5 or 6 days ago, no email or phone call back. I'll try again, but ironically enough now the weather (as I am sure that you well know) is getting in the way. It's just getting tiring trying to get people to TAKE YOUR MONEY, ironically enough. I'm not giving up on the issue though. I love the small feel of Freeway and the planes are advanced enough but not too advanced (G1000, for a student). Especially with what they've added in the past couple of months I don't want to leave Freeway.

I think that I'll hang out there for a day or two and see what the other CFI's are like. There are two new ones that I haven't seen before, I'll see what they do with their students. While there I'll make sure to see the chief CFI and make an appointment. (Just sucks to pay him to fix an internal management issue)

 

[Jaybird180]

I emailed the chief instructor about 5 or 6 days ago, no email or phone call back. I'll try again, but ironically enough now the weather (as I am sure that you well know) is getting in the way. It's just getting tiring trying to get people to TAKE YOUR MONEY, ironically enough. I'm not giving up on the issue though. I love the small feel of Freeway and the planes are advanced enough but not too advanced (G1000, for a student). Especially with what they've added in the past couple of months I don't want to leave Freeway.

I think that I'll hang out there for a day or two and see what the other CFI's are like. There are two new ones that I haven't seen before, I'll see what they do with their students. While there I'll make sure to see the chief CFI and make an appointment. (Just sucks to pay him to fix an internal management issue)

Apparently I need to chastise you. PM me a good telephone number and time available.

 

[TMetzinger]

Yes, do NOT PAY for the Chief's time. Book an appointment, say it's to discuss a problem you're having with your CFI, and go in and talk to him. If he tries to charge you for this, RUN AWAY from the school altogether. I'd be astounded.

 

[N2124v]

Pick up the phone and call him. Emails can be lost, forgotten, etc. also, just showing up to talk with him is good.

 

[bigblockz8]

Pick up the phone and call him. Emails can be lost, forgotten, etc. also, just showing up to talk with him is good.

I called but he was "out" and somehow doesn't have another number that he can be reached at. Problem with going is that I am limited thanks to two things that're related:
A. Can't drive
B. Broke my bike's rims from the last ride to the airport.

I can easily go on the weekend but they're usually very busy, still worth a try though. I woke up the other day with my wooden yoke in my hand, another flying dream.

Itching to fly.