When to start decent

Mine is set to show ETE on the map screen and the CDI page. It's easy to count from pattern altitude to cruise; needn't be exact, round the pattern to the closest 500'. It's then 2 minutes per 1000' to descend, plus a minute to two to slow to pattern speed (I descend at cruise power to get free speed from the altitude that I climbed at high fuel burn).

Example: cruising along at 9500 msl. Pattern at home was 1600 msl (one of my first "real" trips). That's 8000' to lose, so 16 minutes. When ETE showed 18:00, I pushed on the yoke for 500 fpm and trimmed to hold it. As I come down, periodically walk throttle back and mixture forward to maintain cruise MP and EGT values. If I recall, this point was 56 nm out, well over the horizon and certainly beyond visibility for much of the descent.

This does require the ability to fly at pattern altitude for 3-5 miles from the airport, not an issue in my part of WV.


That concept works were there in NO mountains around.. I have to deal with cumulo granites 8000 higher then the runway 2 miles away....

I LOVE to ( peg the VSI 2000 fpm down) on the descent.. Altho I do pre-screen all my passengers and make sure they love to ride roller coasters..:D:D
 

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Re: When to start descent

Example: cruising along at 9500 msl. Pattern at home was 1600 msl (one of my first "real" trips). That's 8000' to lose, so 16 minutes. When ETE showed 18:00, I pushed on the yoke for 500 fpm and trimmed to hold.

That's pretty much the mental math I did pre-Garmin.

One minor note:

It will generally result in a rate of descent slightly greater than 500 fpm, which can be clearly seen when using the faux glideslope on a Garmin.

Why? It calculates the 500 fpm based on your speed at the time. Nose over for a cruise descent, and the extra speed will result in just a bit more rate needed - usually about 550 to 650 fpm in my experience.

Small thing, but noticeable.
 
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That concept works were there in NO mountains around.. I have to deal with cumlo granites 8000 higher then the runway 2 miles away....

I LOVE to ( peg the VSI 2000 fpm down) on the descent.. Altho I do pre-screen all my passengers and make sure they love to ride roller coasters..:D:D

Same here, this is a vertical profile for a short flight to Stovepipe Wells:
 

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Is this a field you can add to the main Nav page? Or do you have to go to the last page every time?

Set the alarm to notify you you've reached your VNAV profile. I have mine set for -700fpm 2nm prior to my destination. I get the msg notification, and roll in some trim.
 
Re: When to start descent

I think planning for the descent was overlooked in my training.

All of my primary training was in FL and even the cross countries were at relatively low altitude. I just don't think it really came up.

But in a Cirrus in the high teens I might have 15,000' or more to lose. That meant starting the descent a good 30 minutes out for a 500 fpm descent. Plan that poorly and you have to dive bomb at the end or, God forbid, bounce around in low level heat and turbulence for miles.

As a side note, nothing wrong with an even more gradual descent, at least VFR. Since drag goes up with the square of the speed increase, there's often benefit to descending more gradually - in the above example start an hour out and descend at 250 fpm. Less of a speed gain but over a longer time for a net benefit.

I recall that air racers would sometimes climb at just below cruise airspeed to the midpoint of their course, then descend at just above cruise airspeed. Overall that could result in an efficient and fast flight.

Of course, so much depends on winds aloft and aircraft efficiency at altitude. Still, worth considering.
 
Set your parameters and follow the blue line on the GPS called the VNAV profile.

In my case, if I peg 600f.p.m. down, it's perfect.

600f.p.m. down will also nail me on an ILS glideslope. Cessna 180 at ~100knots.
 
Is this a field you can add to the main Nav page? Or do you have to go to the last page every time?


I don't think you can add it. The 430 moving map page is cluttered with data fields anyway so I personally turn them all off except for COM/VOR and just flip knobs to get the info I am looking for. Anyway, that VNAV descent profile isn't really that relevant until you are fairly close and you only need *maybe* need it once per flight [VFR of course]. Besides, the 430 will give you a warning when you hit your VNAV profile depending on how you set it up. Mine is set to a 500fpm descent that gets me to 1000agl and 2 mi away on a straight line from destination.

I flip to the last page periodically when curious. It will show the VNAV profile for your current position, e.g.., -276fpm. If I were to then fly a vertical descent at -276fpm, I'd hit my 1000agl and 2mi away point.
 
Re: When to start descent

I think planning for the descent was overlooked in my training.

All of my primary training was in FL and even the cross countries were at relatively low altitude. I just don't think it really came up.

But in a Cirrus in the high teens I might have 15,000' or more to lose. That meant starting the descent a good 30 minutes out for a 500 fpm descent. Plan that poorly and you have to dive bomb at the end or, God forbid, bounce around in low level heat and turbulence for miles.

As a side note, nothing wrong with an even more gradual descent, at least VFR. Since drag goes up with the square of the speed increase, there's often benefit to descending more gradually - in the above example start an hour out and descend at 250 fpm. Less of a speed gain but over a longer time for a net benefit.

I recall that air racers would sometimes climb at just below cruise airspeed to the midpoint of their course, then descend at just above cruise airspeed. Overall that could result in an efficient and fast flight.

Of course, so much depends on winds aloft and aircraft efficiency at altitude. Still, worth considering.

I did all my flight instruction in Florida and everyone of my students knew how to do it. Even if the terrain is flat you still need to descend if you plan to fly above TPA.

But I agree, judging from the amount of professional pilots I encounter who give descent planning zero thought, it's an overlooked topic.
 
Re: When to start descent

Or you could be really lazy....

Pull the power or trim a little until your destination isn't moving in your windscreen anymore. You've nailed your descent path. Tweak as necessary.
 
Re: When to start descent

Or you could be really lazy....

Pull the power or trim a little until your destination isn't moving in your windscreen anymore. You've nailed your descent path. Tweak as necessary.


:yes::yes::thumbsup:
 
Re: When to start descent

Or you could be really lazy....

Pull the power or trim a little until your destination isn't moving in your windscreen anymore. You've nailed your descent path. Tweak as necessary.


My God, man! You've destroyed another PoA mental masturbation thread with simple solutions that don't require pages of crap. ;)
 
Re: When to start descent

Or you could be really lazy....

Pull the power or trim a little until your destination isn't moving in your windscreen anymore. You've nailed your descent path. Tweak as necessary.

When I can see my destination this is what I do. Approaching with mountains obstructing my view the descent guidance from my 496 no only allows my to snake down the canyons but the 496 adjusts for the turns while I do.
 
Re: When to start descent

Or you could be really lazy....

Pull the power or trim a little until your destination isn't moving in your windscreen anymore. You've nailed your descent path. Tweak as necessary.

Like I said, that worked for low level flight as a student pilot.

But for a descent that may have to begin nearly 100nm out, not so much.
 
Re: When to start descent

Like I said, that worked for low level flight as a student pilot.

But for a descent that may have to begin nearly 100nm out, not so much.

How many of us are starting descents 100nm out? Even when I was making almost 200kts just after Christmas at 9500ft, I only started down 35nm out. To start down 100nm out, I'd have to be at 28,500, which puts me in RVSM range - at which point I've probably got an FMS.....which won't even matter because I'm going to be IFR, and ATC is going to tell me when to descend.
 
Re: When to start descent

How many of us are starting descents 100nm out? Even when I was making almost 200kts just after Christmas at 9500ft, I only started down 35nm out. To start down 100nm out, I'd have to be at 28,500, which puts me in RVSM range - at which point I've probably got an FMS.....which won't even matter because I'm going to be IFR, and ATC is going to tell me when to descend.

I was just doing quick math in my head.

To lose 15,000' at 500 fpm would take 30 minutes, right?

And if a Cirrus was descending at 180k, in 30 minutes it would travel 90 nm, right?

I just rounded up to 100 nm because at the 17,500' maximum authorized altitude of my Cirrus, I sometimes had a bit more than 15,000' to lose coming into S FL. That would mean beginning descent north of Lake Okeechobee, long before Hollywood N Perry was in sight.

But my math skills are always suspect - did I figure something wrong?
 
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Re: When to start descent

How many of us are starting descents 100nm out? Even when I was making almost 200kts just after Christmas at 9500ft, I only started down 35nm out. To start down 100nm out, I'd have to be at 28,500, which puts me in RVSM range - at which point I've probably got an FMS.....which won't even matter because I'm going to be IFR, and ATC is going to tell me when to descend.

And THAT would be the over reliance on ATC that drives me crazy. If they start you down early ask for discretion. Late then ask for lower. Or just let them decide how to fly your plane and maybe send them half your pay one of your testicles.
 
Re: When to start descent

I was just doing quick math in my head.

To lose 15,000' at 500 fpm would take 30 minutes, right?

And if a Cirrus was descending at 180k, in 30 minutes it would travel 90 nm, right?

I just rounded up to 100 nm because at the 17,500' maximum authorized altitude of my Cirrus, I sometimes had a bit more than 15,000' to lose coming into S FL. That would mean beginning descent north of Lake Okeechobee, long before Hollywood N Perry was in sight.

But my math skills are always suspect - did I figure something wrong?

A 1.5 degree descent is REALLY shallow. Yeah, if descending that shallow, you'll be a long way out.
 
Re: When to start descent

And THAT would be the over reliance on ATC that drives me crazy. If they start you down early ask for discretion. Late then ask for lower. Or just let them decide how to fly your plane and maybe send them half your pay one of your testicles.

But if I'm up that high, I've got an FMS with the programmed in, and I don't have to do any figuring.
 
Re: When to start descent

A 1.5 degree descent is REALLY shallow. Yeah, if descending that shallow, you'll be a long way out.

Might be shallow*, but is not 500 fpm a pretty typical GA descent rate? From this thread it would appear to be.

Do you generally descend much more rapidly than that?



*Unless on an ILS, I never really concerned myself with descent angle.
 
Re: When to start descent

Might be shallow*, but is not 500 fpm a pretty typical GA descent rate? From this thread it would appear to be.

Do you generally descend much more rapidly than that?



*Unless on an ILS, I never really concerned myself with descent angle.

You ought to see the descent profile and rate when flying in the CJ-4 at FL 450..;)
 
Re: When to start descent

Might be shallow*, but is not 500 fpm a pretty typical GA descent rate? From this thread it would appear to be.

Do you generally descend much more rapidly than that?



*Unless on an ILS, I never really concerned myself with descent angle.

I do. I generally descend between 700 and 1500fpm. I have never had an ear issue. I can easily maintain. 2000fpm descent without the ear pop happening. So for me, if I've got tailwind, I will stay up until I'm hitting that 1500fpm mark.
 
Re: When to start descent

How many of us are starting descents 100nm out? Even when I was making almost 200kts just after Christmas at 9500ft, I only started down 35nm out. To start down 100nm out, I'd have to be at 28,500, which puts me in RVSM range - at which point I've probably got an FMS.....which won't even matter because I'm going to be IFR, and ATC is going to tell me when to descend.

I do. What happens if ATC gives me a decent at pilots discretion? I'm not just gonna start down and then drone around at 4,000.

A 1.5 degree descent is REALLY shallow. Yeah, if descending that shallow, you'll be a long way out.

Agreed, if you are gonna descend that slow...might as well not descend at all.

But if I'm up that high, I've got an FMS with the programmed in, and I don't have to do any figuring.

Not a guarantee.
 
Re: When to start descent

I do. What happens if ATC gives me a decent at pilots discretion? I'm not just gonna start down and then drone around at 4,000.



Agreed, if you are gonna descend that slow...might as well not descend at all.



Not a guarantee.

You're flying in the RVSM levels and you have absolutely no sort of electronics on board to give you a descent point? What clap traps are you flying?
 
Re: When to start descent

You're flying in the RVSM levels and you have absolutely no sort of electronics on board to give you a descent point? What clap traps are you flying?

DC-10s, T-1s(Beechjets), T-6s. DC-10 can do it, but not if you get a crossing restriction off of a VOR DME distance. You can't assume that ALL aircraft up in the flight levels have an FMS with vertical guidance.
 
Re: When to start descent

DC-10s, T-1s(Beechjets), T-6s. DC-10 can do it, but not if you get a crossing restriction off of a VOR DME distance. You can't assume that ALL aircraft up in the flight levels have an FMS with vertical guidance.

Okay so if you get a crossing restriction off of a VOR DME distance, can you figure out how long it will take to get there? Then it is a trivial matter to figure out what descent rate you need. I also don't get all this hysteria over complicated descent planning especially for you guys with the fancy FMS systems. And if you're VFR what Ed Fred says is the way to do it. Commonsense and just fly the damn plane. ;)
 
Re: When to start descent

Or you could be really lazy....

Pull the power or trim a little until your destination isn't moving in your windscreen anymore. You've nailed your descent path. Tweak as necessary.
Not if you can't see your destination, either because of clouds or because you are too far away at that point.

Not all airplanes up at high altitudes do VNAV. I flew Learjets for years which didn't. I always used distance rather than time for my rule of thumb but others used time.
 
Re: When to start descent

Okay so if you get a crossing restriction off of a VOR DME distance, can you figure out how long it will take to get there? Then it is a trivial matter to figure out what descent rate you need. I also don't get all this hysteria over complicated descent planning especially for you guys with the fancy FMS systems. And if you're VFR what Ed Fred says is the way to do it. Commonsense and just fly the damn plane. ;)
You need to back up the FMS with these calculations. Sometimes the FMS might give you a bad calculation and you need to correct it. It's just like GPS. Why do we need to know how to do dead reckonig? Because if the GPs craps out we still need to know how to fly.
 
Re: When to start descent

Okay so if you get a crossing restriction off of a VOR DME distance, can you figure out how long it will take to get there? Then it is a trivial matter to figure out what descent rate you need. I also don't get all this hysteria over complicated descent planning especially for you guys with the fancy FMS systems. And if you're VFR what Ed Fred says is the way to do it. Commonsense and just fly the damn plane. ;)

I know with the groundspeed I fly, altitude to lose multiplied by 3 is the distance in miles I need to start down. Not too terribly complicated. Some of us don't have those fancy FMSs. Flying VFR at 5,000 feet...yeah I just point towards the airport.
 
Re: When to start descent

I know with the groundspeed I fly, altitude to lose multiplied by 3 is the distance in miles I need to start down. Not too terribly complicated. Some of us don't have those fancy FMSs. Flying VFR at 5,000 feet...yeah I just point towards the airport.

Okay that sounds simple and more like it. Captain makes it sound like a huge effort and agonizing going on. OMG! Got to plan this descent! :rofl:

Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but you don't have some of the same constraints we do right? You're flying pressurized so 500 fpm to 2500 fpm you don't care you can tolerate a lot more variation there. And engine shock cooling concerns also not a problem plus speed brakes/spoilers, etc. My point is you fellas and gals in the big iron even without fancy FMS's have it a lot easier than someone in a slick Mooney coming down from 16K who needs to make sure to not drop more than 500 fpm and also not get too fast while not just cutting to idle because piston engines don't like that.
 
Flying 2 mile / min aircraft in CA descents have always been the same.

Mts mean cruise at 10-11,000'

Airports are near sea level

500'/min = 4 miles / 1000'

Start descent 40 miles out
 
Re: When to start descent

Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but you don't have some of the same constraints we do right? You're flying pressurized so 500 fpm to 2500 fpm you don't care you can tolerate a lot more variation there. And engine shock cooling concerns also not a problem plus speed brakes/spoilers, etc. My point is you fellas and gals in the big iron even without fancy FMS's have it a lot easier than someone in a slick Mooney coming down from 16K who needs to make sure to not drop more than 500 fpm and also not get too fast while not just cutting to idle because piston engines don't like that.

On the descent, I can usually descend as quick as I'd like because the differential pressure between outside and inside only decreases. Yep, we can rip the throttles to idle, throw the speed brakes out and decend at +6,000 ft/min. It's pretty unsettling coming down that fast so we usually don't do that. We try to keep it around 1,000 ft/min
 
Re: When to start descent

than someone in a slick Mooney coming down from 16K who needs to make sure to not drop more than 500 fpm and also not get too fast while not just cutting to idle because piston engines don't like that.

But no one ever says anything when you go from idle to full power. If you are NA, shock cooling is a myth.
 
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